Flying tricked AGAIN

[Lei]

I know the one you mean. As for the new "Pathfinder", I am all about it. Fuck rep, exploration, and all of the other randomness. Let me finish the actual story and unlock this. Somewhere along the way they listened. To your earlier point, it was barely a 2 week grind in WoD once Flight was available. I can't imagine with this lesser requirement of a system that it will take longer than that. But again, none of us really have that info, nor can we completely trust what as been said at Blizzcon. After all, Stormshield is the Alliance base in WoD, not Karabor as originally announced.

Only they didn't really listen. Palyers wanted flying earlier in the expansion, but as it looks now, the time between 9.0 and 9.1 is actually the same as 7.0 and 7.2 Then we don't know if later zones will allow us to fly at all (see korthia). And they probably timegate it even more than ever before (if the campaign is longer than 2-3 weeks, then for sure. But then imagine a content patch with only 2-3 weeks of campaign) How is this listening?

I've been saying this for a while but the devs have become these evil genies. You catch the genie, ask to meet a nice girl and they present you your mom. Wish granted. GLHF.

[OMGTwitchTV]

Only they didn't really listen. Palyers wanted flying earlier in the expansion, but as it looks now, the time between 9.0 and 9.1 is actually the same as 7.0 and 7.2 Then we don't know if later zones will allow us to fly at all (see korthia). And they probably timegate it even more than ever before (if the campaign is longer than 2-3 weeks, then for sure. But then imagine a content patch with only 2-3 weeks of campaign) How is this listening?

I've been saying this for a while but the devs have become these evil genies. You catch the genie, ask to meet a nice girl and they present you your mom. Wish granted. GLHF.

They "listened" in the respect that we want to see the story, but are not interested in getting exalted with everyone and doing every little corner of the game. At least this is less strenuous. Like unlocking Nighborne with the 900 (no hyperbole) quests in Suramar versus unlocking Dark Iron Dwarves which was "finish the war campaign". I would much rather have the campaign all day every day versus the week solid of game time spent unlocking a race I never even play. 12 hours of gametime versus 50 is a big deal.

[chaoticcrono]

lol @ people calling this a compromise...

people who dont want to fly never had to, those who do want to fly are prohibited from doing so... this is clearly a once sided issue...

to this day I dont understand this incessant need for one group of players to impose their playstyle on others instead of just doing what they enjoy without trying to make the game shitty for everyone else...

[SirCowdog]

They "listened" in the respect that we want to see the story, but are not interested in getting exalted with everyone and doing every little corner of the game. At least this is less strenuous. Like unlocking Nighborne with the 900 (no hyperbole) quests in Suramar versus unlocking Dark Iron Dwarves which was "finish the war campaign". I would much rather have the campaign all day every day versus the week solid of game time spent unlocking a race I never even play. 12 hours of gametime versus 50 is a big deal.

I think you're putting to much emphasis on the superficial aspects of the unlock, and not looking at the practical end result.

You say that Blizzard listened, but all they actually did was play a shell game. Sure, you don't have to do literally everything in the expansion, but what you do end up having to complete is very likely ending with the same result: Exhausting the content of the current patch while still only being able to fly in areas where it's largely meaningless to do so.

This is why people like Lei keep bringing up the timegate point. It doesn't matter if the unlock isn't called pathfinder, and you don't have to grind reps...if the timegating results in the same amount of time taken to finish the campaign, and you still can't use flying anywhere that it matters.

And you do have a point about absolute time spent in game. I also would prefer only 12 hours instead of 50. But I'd much rather have a desire to log in and have fun for as long as I want instead of only logging in and playing just enough to complete some chores before leaving to do something else.

Ans that's where my biggest issue comes up: Chore-based open world design meant to force you to log in over multiple weeks, instead of fun-based design meant to actually promote immersion and enjoyment.

But clearly a lot of people like their daily repetitive chores, and Blizzard caters to them instead of striving for something better.

[Dhrizzle]

lol @ people calling this a compromise...

people who dont want to fly never had to, those who do want to fly are prohibited from doing so... this is clearly a once sided issue...

to this day I dont understand this incessant need for one group of players to impose their playstyle on others instead of just doing what they enjoy without trying to make the game shitty for everyone else...

It's not one group of players imposing their playstyle on others, it's the devs having their idea of how they want the game to play and a group of players agreeing that it's better than what came before.

[TOM_RUS]

Blizzard are liars and scammers.

[SmokesTooMuch]

Imagine being both THIS loud and THIS wrong.

[Weeps]

this is my surprised face.

I am fully in favor of keeping flying away until content for those areas are generally done.

[Magic gun 23]

OP posted this thread just to stir the pot and sit back and watch. People like that shouldn't be on these forums.

[SirCowdog]

It's not one group of players imposing their playstyle on others, it's the devs having their idea of how they want the game to play and a group of players agreeing that it's better than what came before.

The problem with that is that there are a LOT of players who are so invested in the game that they'll adopt anything Blizzard does or says, without ever actually stopping to consider the ramifications. And then due to human psychology, will be highly resistant to anything that challenges that idea.

It keeps coming back to something I've been saying for years: That blizzard is not innovating. To such an extent that they would rather remove player agency in order to not have to deviate from their formula.

The fact that there are players supporting that lack doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

[WowIsDead64]

Pathfinder:
1. Get revered with EVERYONE
2. Explore EVERYTHING
3. Do EVERY quest
4. Complete multiple campaigns over multiple patches (just like BFA with 3 zones and 2 wars)
5. Wait until the X.3 patch of the expansion until flying is no longer viable for healthy competition

Shadowlands:
1. Finish your Covenant campaign

I don't. There is small difference for players, who decide to return to game, only when flying is fully unlocked. Back in old days of Pathfinder they were required to do all rep grinds anyway, so they had to resub 1-2 months earlier and do that grind, if they want to get flying ASAP. But they usually don't. And now they can wait for Renown catch-up. All other players were getting Pathfinder via "just playing the game". For them - there is no difference. It's still year of waiting vs year of waiting. It's just small QOL change. Blizzard have finally heard players, who were telling them, that artificial requirements aren't needed, if they time-gate flying anyway. It's simply BS. They just tried to make an illusion, that you somehow "earn" flying plus justifications for not removing Pathfinder in future xpack, because "other players earned it and we don't want to devalue their efforts". This change is made due to new leveling system, where flying is gated behind level 30 anyway and Pathfinder requirement is removed. Otherwise the most likely won't make this change.

P.S.

[Lei]

They "listened" in the respect that we want to see the story, but are not interested in getting exalted with everyone and doing every little corner of the game. At least this is less strenuous. Like unlocking Nighborne with the 900 (no hyperbole) quests in Suramar versus unlocking Dark Iron Dwarves which was "finish the war campaign". I would much rather have the campaign all day every day versus the week solid of game time spent unlocking a race I never even play. 12 hours of gametime versus 50 is a big deal.

Funny thing is ... you bring suramar as an example. We haven't had such an endgame activity since Legion. They can't ask something from you that doesn't exist.
Now, is it good for us to not have a Suramar-like thing? The outdoor content is getting smaller and smaller with each expac, the game is getting more and more instance based (islands, wafronts, horrific visions, torghast). I'm not saying the zones are getting smaller (though..). I'm saying the quality, worthful activities that bring you OUT to the zones.

[Wilfire]

Funny thing is ... you bring suramar as an example. We haven't had such an endgame activity since Legion. They can't ask something from you that doesn't exist.
Now, is it good for us to not have a Suramar-like thing? The outdoor content is getting smaller and smaller with each expac, the game is getting more and more instance based (islands, wafronts, horrific visions, torghast). I'm not saying the zones are getting smaller (though..). I'm saying the quality, worthful activities that bring you OUT to the zones.

If you don't want to do hardcore raiding, m+ or pvp, you're shit out of luck with Ion's team in charge

[Malania]

Blizzard only make things worse via doing it. They want to squeeze game time out of players, but many players prefer to wait for flying to be unlocked instead. There is simple rule here: it's still better to have "bad" players, than no players at all. And yeah. Existence of "no flying forever" zone right from release suggests, that flying should also be available immediately. Because waiting for flying for a year to have it in completely obsoleted content isn't good compromise. Having both flying and no flying locations at the same time - is. And we had such locations in the past. Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, etc. It was perfect design and the most popular Wow xpack ever made. That's, why I call Blizzard stubborn. They just can't admit, that they're wrong.

New content, that is also no flying forever, reminds me about MOP. And MOP was that kind of xpack, when I personally was unsubbed most of the time.

Nope.jpg...

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

I just miss demonic leap + goblin glider, that's all the flying i ever need. Demonic leap to arrest momentum before landing, and a soulstone in case i was close to dying

[baskev]

Did they, though?

Changing the window when flight is unlocked is a token gesture, to be sure. But the effective use of flight is still pretty worthless. Nothin in the core design of the open world is really changing.

I will say that abandoning Pathfinder is also good...but the nature of the unlock and the core philosophy is still exactly the same: "Jump through a bunch of hoops and wait until halfway through the expansion to fly, and ONLY in zones where it's irrelevant."

We'll see what happens in the new zones. If you can fly there, then maybe it's a step forward. But I remain HIGHLY skeptical of that.

Yes they did.
Before patch x.2 , now x.1
Before several quests, achievements and reputations, now ( as far as we know) only renown. So....if that is not change...

Ohhh again you take me wrong. I do not think these are well made zones for flying. Just saying people complaining about being tricked and it has not changed is false. It is better because its faster etc.

I don't disagree entirely with the point of flying over content. But the point is that the real mistake is in making content that players want to fly over in the first place, and then taking away their tools and agency in an attempt to force them into it. The fault lies with the nature of the content, not with the mechanic used to skip it. Because when flight isn't available, players use other tools to skip that content.

And I 100% disagree with the idea that Blizzard changed anything. Since WoD the open world design has been one that ignores that flying exists. Adapting the literal 3D skybox to ALLOW flying to mechanically work after the content has been cleared is NOT the same thing as using a wholistic open world design that includes the use of flying during current content.

Thus, only allowing flight in zones when that zone has nothing of real value is not really listening or changing anything practical. In effect, it removes flight from the current cutting edge part of the game that a progression-based MMO like WoW relies upon. "You can use it in older content" is a cop out of the highest magnitude.

As I've said countless times: The biggest problem is with the refusal to include flight in the design of current content, combined with the refusal to address the base mechanics of how flying works. There are ways to mitigate both those issues. Delaying access to flight, locking it behind a timegate, and only allowing it in content which has already been exhausted are the weakest of those options. And we should really be expecting better from Blizzard.

Yes players will skip the content via other uses. but it will happen less. And the those ways ( like running and cloak for night elves) have several big problems. ( like cooldowns). And its 1 way less. And the biggest way to skip content.

And you can 100% be wrong. You say it as a mechanic has not changed. And i am not challanging that at all. You are moving goal post here. We where talking about when it released. And if they changed the speed etc about it. I have said before that i agree with you that it like many other things needs a major rework in WoW.

And yes it does not change if the zone has less value. But who says they do not. Dialy's, WQ etc etc are still there so its still valueable for people and alts. It will make questing in certain zones a breeze.

And i have said several times ( READ it ffs) i do agree with you on the fact that part of the content needs to be changed. Including flying.
But i disagree that nothing has changed. you get it earlier, when its still somewhat relevant. And yes some of you want flying content from the start. And i think that is a bad idea. Both i and blizzard and others have given us reasons why. And all you want ( for the most part)is to go thruh the content faster. That is in my eyes not a valid reason. Making it more diverse with flying quests etc i agree. That would be better.

Maybe a middle ground. when flying patches get released there will be flying content to it. So big floating pieces of lands you can fly to in the air etc.

[chaoticcrono]

It's not one group of players imposing their playstyle on others, it's the devs having their idea of how they want the game to play and a group of players agreeing that it's better than what came before.

theres players who encourage and enable this behavior from the devs by trying to justify it and defending it...

hell theres numerous here who have advocated for the devs to impose what they want on everyone else...

a proper solution this this problem is to simply make servers with flying enabled and servers with it disabled...

[VinceVega]

theres players who encourage and enable this behavior from the devs by trying to justify it and defending it...

hell theres numerous here who have advocated for the devs to impose what they want on everyone else...

a proper solution this this problem is to simply make servers with flying enabled and servers with it disabled...

Problem is that most people on the against flying side are fine with it being enabled evantually and even wih less restrictions and earlier like they do now. The other side? Not so much. No compromise!!!!! Flying now immediatly forever. Fuck the other side!

I would rather have no flying enabled, But is see why people like it and want not just in the last patch. So first patch done we have seen the world. Enable flying fine by me. Not optimal IMHO but still i see where others are coming from.

You cannot split he server for everything people don't agree on btw. That is why there are compromises. And no i won just stay on the ground if the enable it because it is a competetive game. Flight is flavour with a time save.

[chaoticcrono]

Problem is that most people on the against flying side are fine with it being enabled evantually and even wih less restrictions and earlier like they do now. The other side? Not so much. No compromise!!!!! Flying now immediatly forever. Fuck the other side!

I would rather have no flying enabled, But is see why people like it and want not just in the last patch. So first patch done we have seen the world. Enable flying fine by me. Not optimal IMHO but still i see where others are coming from.

You cannot split he server for everything people don't agree on btw. That is why there are compromises. And no i won just stay on the ground if the enable it because it is a competetive game. Flight is flavour with a time save.

how does the other side get fucked when you are never forced to fly?

its not a compromise when one side loses something and the other loses NOTHING.

if you want it to be competitive then having a server dedicated to that removes that issue without fucking over everyone else who doesnt give a shit.

[VinceVega]

how does the other side get fucked when you are never forced to fly?

its not a compromise when one side loses something and the other loses NOTHING.

if you want it to be competitive then having a server dedicated to that removes that issue without fucking over everyone else who doesnt give a shit.

Exactly what i mean. Your side refuses to see why we will use fly even if we could ride. It was explained by numerous people in numerous threads. Not going to do it again.

How did it someone else put it here? Running into a brick wall.

Not using flying is like only going LFR raiding on your way to max Ilvl.

Convenience it was it is convinient. No one says otherwise. But why fly at all? Why not let us port everywhere we want with a click on the map?