Why not make raid loot work like PvP loot?

[Orwell7]

2 pieces of loot drop per boss in a 40 man raid. And say you have 9 other Mages in your grp that all want the same weapon or item. It's gonna be a while. And it will take much longer then even in Shadowlands.

The main difference is that you have to look at the whole picture.
If vanilla only had MC as a 10-boss raid which dropped -and here's the difference- the ONLY weapon that's 13 item levels (!) higher and comparatively stronger than any other option, yeah, people would be mad.

Just look at this BiS list for God's sake!
https://classic.wowhead.com/guides/m...is-classic-wow

You see there are a plethora of options, which made your a liiitle bit stronger by farming for those pieces. LOTS of options! And THIS is exactly what Shadowlands is missing - you have less "shots" in this theme park compared to ALL other expansions.

[DechCJC]

10% chance to get loot is on average what it was before everything became loot pinata. in vanilla you got 4 items for 40 people. thats 10% chance. in bc in the 25 man raids you got 2 or 3 for 25 people. roughly the same percentage same in wrath unless you did hard modes. honeslty i havent had a hard time gearing at all. sure i got my roughly free 200 gear at the start, but im 215 now and i get like 1 piece of loot a week from the vault and 1 or 2 upgrades from the raid itself. I think thats fine honestly. i have yet to not get an upgrade every week out of my vault. where as in BC, i literally had my bow from karazan until i got the bow off illidan because no weapon ever dropped. its all rng i suppose, but i honestly am ok with how the raid items work... Dungeons on the other hand seem slightly stingy with loot.

Here's my problem though, I do all types of content. I got a quick 2400 in arena and have been showered in gear, mythic plus is soon to get an upgrade with valor, where is my incentive to do raiding? For fun? Sure, I do it for fun, but it's a bit whack that the most time consuming piece of content is the least rewarding. I've raided CN since its release, I'm 227 ilvl and have had literally 0 items that I can use from it. In how many weeks? That's ridiculous.

[rhorle]

You see there are a plethora of options, which made your a liiitle bit stronger by farming for those pieces. LOTS of options! And THIS is exactly what Shadowlands is missing - you have less "shots" in this theme park compared to ALL other expansions.

Except you are ignoring that the things on the best in slot list you linked exist in Shadowlands. Just look at the item quality and item level difference that exists on your classic list while ignoring that you can get comparable items in Shadowlands. WQ's can now offer up to 194 item level. Covenant fills in those gaps. And coming soon you'll be able to upgrade gear to cover some of the gaps as you go beyond item level 200.

[Orwell7]

Except you are ignoring that the things on the best in slot list you linked exist in Shadowlands. Just look at the item quality and item level difference that exists on your classic list while ignoring that you can get comparable items in Shadowlands. WQ's can now offer up to 194 item level. Covenant fills in those gaps. And coming soon you'll be able to upgrade gear to cover some of the gaps as you go beyond item level 200.

You get it wrong, but it's the game's fault for not correctly.. how to say.. present things?
See, items in vanilla and in shadowlands offered "some" player power level increase. This increase is VASTLY different in vanilla and shadowlands!

While there are item level differences in the bis list I linked for classic, the ACTUAL power differences are not that big. It's almost a tenth of growth.
Just look at WCL and compare parses from P1 and P6. And this power level difference was ACROSS THE WHOLE expansion!

In SL you can DOUBLE your dps going from 200 to 220. From 200 to 220! Triple it if coming from 190. And thats ABOVE M0 item level.

I hope you get what I'm saying. Tho there are a vast number of options to ilvl200, there is barrens above that, because we only have 8 instances and 1 raid. In classic you could get your "close to max potential" gear from a much bigger pool. More shots at the casino!

Edit: tho ofc this Valor change is an absolute gap-filler, and with this implemented I think the gearing system will be close to perfect regarding 5-man content.

[Thelyron]

From the day i started playing mmos, i disliked the idea of bosses dropping loot directly. Giant ass dragon, carries gloves just my size inside its asshole. I always thought that bosses should drop materials, or that you should be able to strip a room of materials after you killed a boss, and that all armor and weapons (aside from some iconic exceptions) should be crafted, and that there should be a much, much bigger focus on crafting in the gearing process.

[arkanon]

From the day i started playing mmos, i disliked the idea of bosses dropping loot directly. Giant ass dragon, carries gloves just my size inside its asshole. I always thought that bosses should drop materials, or that you should be able to strip a room of materials after you killed a boss, and that all armor and weapons (aside from some iconic exceptions) should be crafted, and that there should be a much, much bigger focus on crafting in the gearing process.

So like Monster Hunter? Im not against this idea, but your logic is a bit screwed. Please dont expect too much "realism" from a game where you get dragons in the mail. And that dragon is in every single one of your mailboxes at the same time - even in alternate universes and different timelines, but once you take it out of one mailbox - POOF - its gone from all the others.

[rhorle]

I hope you get what I'm saying. Tho there are a vast number of options to ilvl200, there is barrens above that, because we only have 8 instances and 1 raid. In classic you could get your "close to max potential" gear from a much bigger pool. More shots at the casino!

Right but that is the same as in Classic. You are comparing two different systems of gear and saying there is not a 1 to 1 relation. When you account for the differences between the two systems it works out to be the same. You also do not triple your DPS at least not for every class. Or double it even going from 200 to 220.

The power difference in the raid gear item levels in Shadowlands is not that great because there is nothing in between. It doesn't matter that the item level can jump to 220 or not. It is all balanced as the same expected power growth. It is really just a perception issue because modern wow does not use the stat budgets rigidly tied to gear quality and item level.

[MidnyteTV]

If there's one complaint I see all over the place, it's that raids don't drop enough loot, and I experience that too; often times I only get 1 item from a full 10/10 CN clear, maybe two if I'm lucky, and most of the time it's things I don't need that just end up getting vendored/traded to other people. The last time I did a Heroic clear, I ended up getting some leggings that I already have, and the token for an offhand...when I've already got a 213 2hander. So effectively nothing.

But then I look at PvP and as far as I can tell, you just do the PvP activities, get points, and then buy the exact gear you want from the vendor. No loot drama, no RNG, no bullshit.

Why can't PvE work like that? Just have bosses drop badges/points that we use to buy gear from vendors. No more getting pissed off at not having the right item drop, no more having 5 people whisper you "need that? need that? need that?" every time you get loot, no more getting things with the wrong stats, etc. You can funnel your points towards the items you want, instead of being at the mercy of loot RNG.

Because Ion would have to admit he was wrong, which he wont do.

[Subrias]

Here's my problem though, I do all types of content. I got a quick 2400 in arena and have been showered in gear, mythic plus is soon to get an upgrade with valor, where is my incentive to do raiding? For fun? Sure, I do it for fun, but it's a bit whack that the most time consuming piece of content is the least rewarding. I've raided CN since its release, I'm 227 ilvl and have had literally 0 items that I can use from it. In how many weeks? That's ridiculous.

You are 2400, most people can't even get to 1800. They can't do balancing based off the top 10% of the pvp players.

[Artemol]

easy fix:

Have pvp gear be 50% less effective in PvE.
Have PvE Gear be 50% less effective in pvp.

Now pvp gear wont be any better than Mythic 0 gear, in PvE.

[mrgreenthump]

This is sort of hilarious seeing people compare this loot system to previous ones. Dropping less loot in raids and M+ is fine. It's just PvP is a way better source of loot atm. For some classes the PvP itemization is even BiS loot for raiding. Nerfing PvP loot frequency isn't the right option though, but they need to do something to reduce the power of PvP items in PvE. I don't really look forward to doing RBG just because I need the loot for raiding and I want to min max my character.

Now they are adding Valor to M+, so not only do I need to PvP, I need to M+ for valor gear if I want to min max my character for raiding as it's unlikely to get loot I need from raids even with the buffed rate.

Now you might say it's fine as this is an mmo and doing multiple activities should be rewarded. Am not saying it shouldn't be. But when you have 1-2 pieces of gear on your raiding character from the actual raid.. There is a problem. And these changes are not going to change that at all.

easy fix:

Have pvp gear be 50% less effective in PvE.
Have PvE Gear be 50% less effective in pvp.

Now pvp gear wont be any better than Mythic 0 gear, in PvE.

I'd like that. Maybe not 50%, something like 20-25% would be enough.

[dcc626]

Blizzard:
Instructions unclear, but we will nerf PvP gearing to closer match the misery of raiding.

im just waiting on them to just add resillience back and make it useless for pve. like it should have been.

[Swnem]

Only reason why is cause of the devs.

FFXIV uses random drops and currency. So, even if you are unlucky you can still get your gear after X time. Imo it's a vastly superior system, as it respects my time as a player.

[Ryzeth]

This is basically exactly how it works in FF14.

You're guaranteed to get BiS gear by <x> date as long as you raid weekly.

[cors8]

I've only received one weapon from vault since launch and it's not even 226. If I didn't get this weapon, I'd be riding the bench with 207 weapons (hate PvP) or just quit the game. The PvE loot situation is trash.

[secondgasp]

I've only received one weapon from vault since launch and it's not even 226. If I didn't get this weapon, I'd be riding the bench with 207 weapons (hate PvP) or just quit the game. The PvE loot situation is trash.

i think they are trying to fix it. valor coming back will help a lot! i look forward to upgrade items i want not what the slot machine give me

[secondgasp]

If there's one complaint I see all over the place, it's that raids don't drop enough loot, and I experience that too; often times I only get 1 item from a full 10/10 CN clear, maybe two if I'm lucky, and most of the time it's things I don't need that just end up getting vendored/traded to other people. The last time I did a Heroic clear, I ended up getting some leggings that I already have, and the token for an offhand...when I've already got a 213 2hander. So effectively nothing.

But then I look at PvP and as far as I can tell, you just do the PvP activities, get points, and then buy the exact gear you want from the vendor. No loot drama, no RNG, no bullshit.

Why can't PvE work like that? Just have bosses drop badges/points that we use to buy gear from vendors. No more getting pissed off at not having the right item drop, no more having 5 people whisper you "need that? need that? need that?" every time you get loot, no more getting things with the wrong stats, etc. You can funnel your points towards the items you want, instead of being at the mercy of loot RNG.

i think their worry is that they have the data to prove people stick around longer if they have a slot machine holding them hostage because they can't quit or lower their play time until they meet their arbitrary goals.

i would love to see all gearing become like how pvp is now. my only concern is the time lockout they decide on will instead feel punishing when you realize you upped the wrong piece or get an item thats good enough but not bis and it causes you to question if you the bis item you're upgrading is still worth it. it would feel terrible to realize the time you're invest into an item just got wasted and it will be more efficient to start leveling up another item. i hope we aren't punished for banking valor or the valor cap isn't too small that we can't get to heroic ilvl easily, i think only mythic should take a bit longer. i don't think 4-6 weeks per item to mythic level is a reasonable, 2-3 weeks maybe given that you have to many slots to flesh out and bis items to hunt for still that RNG will still play a large factor for consuming your time

[Najk]

After 26 weeks of clearing MC on classic i still did not get all my gear from MC. Also bosses usually only drop 2 sometimes 3 pieces.

Redding the chat some people are playing the wrong game
Ps: we also saw 0 bindings.

haha classic feeling