Flying tricked AGAIN

[ohwell]

We're getting it before that, I thought. In 9.0.5? Totally agree with you on the whistle. Really annoying being stuck way out in Tirna Scithe, the far end of House of Plagues or Rituals, or Citadel of Loyalty, and having to slog your way back to civilization.

Man too bad those hearthstones have 1 hour cooldowns......oh wait....

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i mean you're certainly capable of just using ground mounts and not pushing what you enjoy on everyone else. if you at all use a flying mount then you are a hypocrite though so...

If you use a ground mount now you're a hypocrite. See how you sound?

[Araevin]

One thing about Legion flight for me was that the toys and flight paths all allowed for very creative travel. The flight paths were in solid positions and there were easy to get toys that would launch you in the air and allow you to glide anywhere. Shadowlands possibly has the worst flight paths of all expansions. The covenant teleport networks are extremely uneven; I can say that the Venthyr one is largely crap. There is not nearly enough verticality to help you make good use of gliders. So movement is altogether frustrating.

[Glorious Leader]

I’m not anti flying, but having flying enabled and saying it’s a “choice” is about the same as having the 30% buff/debuff in ICC/DS and played have the “choice” to use them.

Both “choices” make the game harder and more tedious with no benefit.

Then you are indeed anti choice. You want to argue its an illusion of choice because the consequences are so poor thats fine. Thats still better than the current implementation where their is LITERALLY no choice you simple can't fly period.

[Dhrizzle]

that's not an answer though because it doesn't explain why you cant make the choice without removing the choice from others.

saying the choice is illusory is your opinion and doesn't actually make the choice not a choice.

It is an answer, it's just not one you like which is why you're pretending it isn't one.

Now would you accept a fly-mode with half quest rewards and doubled requirements for Covenant dailies, something that would make flying or not flying more like a real choice? If not why not?

[OMGTwitchTV]

You already admitted that you were wrong about your assumptions of what the unlock entailed.

When someone is wrong, it is important to admit it, just the same as complaining solely for the sake that flight is not just being handed to us. I'd rather have this new "pathfinder" versus the old one. Maybe you and the rest of the complaint brigade can launch your official complaints on the official forum and then feel free to piss and moan here if they fail to follow through. Bitching on this site about Blizzard is about as effective as bitching about Amazon on Google. The only thing you are accomplishing here is reminding people why they dislike engaging in a thread with you because of the fingers in your ears as they attempt to offer up logic and reason.

[SirCowdog]

It is an answer, it's just not one you like which is why you're pretending it isn't one.

Now would you accept a fly-mode with half quest rewards and doubled requirements for Covenant dailies, something that would make flying or not flying more like a real choice? If not why not?

If we're talking about conditions that make flying a real choice, why does it have to come at the cost of a massive debuff to flying? Why couldn't it also come in the form of a buff to ground mounts?

I've suggested this in the past:

Flying turned off while war mode is activated.
Raise the speed of ground mounts, or let you stay mounted in combat/gathering.
Lower the speed of flying mounts to be on par with ground mounts.

The exact conditions can be tweaked or adjusted, of course. It doesn't have to come in a form where flight is made worthless or so unappealing as to not be used. We've already been through that with pathfinder. And any such suggestions don't merit discussion.

I would rather see the choice to use a ground mount made more appealing than to nerf flight so hard it isn't worth considering.

[Stacko]

I'm surprised so many people are against this. Flying isn't "terrible game design" as I've seen people say, as long as the zones are designed with this in mind. Other MMOs do this perfectly well, but WoW has had a problem with it for a good while.

[SirCowdog]

When someone is wrong, it is important to admit it, just the same as complaining solely for the sake that flight is not just being handed to us. I'd rather have this new "pathfinder" versus the old one. Maybe you and the rest of the complaint brigade can launch your official complaints on the official forum and then feel free to piss and moan here if they fail to follow through. Bitching on this site about Blizzard is about as effective as bitching about Amazon on Google. The only thing you are accomplishing here is reminding people why they dislike engaging in a thread with you because of the fingers in your ears as they attempt to offer up logic and reason.

Quote me where I asked for flight to be handed to me.

Don't stereotype me, or lump all arguments into one blanked statement that isn't true.

And don't pull that crap about the official forums either. That's the appeal to authority logical fallacy. If you have no more points, then admit it and concede that some of the arguments about flight have merit. And please stick to what I said when replying to me, not what some rando said.

[OMGTwitchTV]

Quote me where I asked for flight to be handed to me.

Don't stereotype me, or lump all arguments into one blanked statement that isn't true.

And don't pull that crap about the official forums either. That's the appeal to authority logical fallacy. If you have no more points, then admit it and concede that some of the arguments about flight have merit. And please stick to what I said when replying to me, not what some rando said.

I can do, and say, as I please as long as it does not violate the terms of this site and the discretion of a moderator. I just have to ask myself one, simple question:

"Why is it that someone who hates the content, and berates the creative team, who probably isn't subbed and hasn't been for awhile, is even concerned about unlocking flight or how it is accomplished?"

If you hate this game so much because of the direction it went in WoD and continues to go, why are you even here?

[Lei]

just the same as complaining solely for the sake that flight is not just being handed to us. I'd rather have this new "pathfinder" versus the old one.

Wait what? This new pathfinder will be (seems like) handed to us, for less actual work, which you say you like. So it is actually you who want it handed to you.
How funny.

[SirCowdog]

I can do, and say, as I please as long as it does not violate the terms of this site and the discretion of a moderator. I just have to ask myself one, simple question:

"Why is it that someone who hates the content, and berates the creative team, who probably isn't subbed and hasn't been for awhile, is even concerned about unlocking flight or how it is accomplished?"

If you hate this game so much because of the direction it went in WoD and continues to go, why are you even here?

Ad hominem, and still avoiding the actual points.

I do not "hate" the content. I simply call it like it is: Overly formulaic and stuck in a rut of repetitive shallow design.

I DO "berate" the creative team because they aren't being creative.

As to why I'm concerned about how flight is used in the game? It's because it represents a point that I believe would make the game better, and would bring both me and many other players back.

Once you start looking at the state of the game as a whole instead of trying to win the argument, you'll start to understand my point of view better.

[OMGTwitchTV]

Wait what? This new pathfinder will be (seems like) handed to us, for less actual work, which you say you like. So it is actually you who want it handed to you.
How funny.

You misunderstood that. Every post I have made has been approving the new method. I was not fond of the old Pathfinder which was "go do these 37 things and comeback in 2 weeks. Now it's "Go do your campaign and poof". I was pointing out that SirCowdog, the champion of flying is still complaining even after Blizz made a compromise and removed 85% of the Pathfinder requirements given their last 3 expansions.

[Witchblade77]

You misunderstood that. Every post I have made has been approving the new method. I was not fond of the old Pathfinder which was "go do these 37 things and comeback in 2 weeks. Now it's "Go do your campaign and poof". I was pointing out that SirCowdog, the champion of flying is still complaining even after Blizz made a compromise and removed 85% of the Pathfinder requirements given their last 3 expansions.

concider for the moment, the timing of when we are getting this (current estimates are no earlier then june, given the precedent of how long prior expansion major patches took from pts to release and this patch is NOT on pts yet). also covenant campaign is STILl time gated as quests unlock with your renown levels. unless you completely no life it, there is nothing poof about getting your renown high enough to finish it. also we already know that we are not getting it from finishing current quests. we will need to finish new quests that will be added with the patch, and we also know that they will NOT be available all at once. we do not know whether renown requirement to unlock them all will go up and if yes - by how much. so in a way, we are STILL grinding rep. it just has a different name.

[OMGTwitchTV]

Once you start looking at the state of the game as a whole instead of trying to win the argument, you'll start to understand my point of view better.

I snipped the bluster. So let's stick to the facts.

According to an interview with Blizzard done by Eurogamer, Shadowlands is the fastest selling Blizzard title of all time with 3.7M copies sold on launch day and more game time logged in the first 4 months of Shadowlands than any other WoW expansion. BusinessWire agreed and even stated it was the fastest selling PC game of all time industry wide. All of this in the midst of a pandemic no less, and hard financial times for a lot of people. Gamezindustry.biz and Comicbook.com also concurred with the claim.

Like with any expansion, about 40% rushed through the content and have unsubbed to play other things until patch 9.1. We see this in every expac, and each spell between PTR and patch drops. According to the numbers at MMO Population, we are still seeing nearly 6 million players per day logging into WoW meaning, there was at least 10M when the expac dropped, and will be again when 9.1 arrives, or close to it.

The only thing wrong with this expansion is the vocal minority who has some deep seeded hate for Blizzard's direction and the need to shout everyone else down to prove them wrong, or get them to simply give up and walk away. So I will go one better. I've provided actual facts to show the game is still being enjoyed, and this very popular and well planned expansion will see its usual influx of logins during patch drops. Since you called me out for dodging facts, I will do the same. You are unsubbed and have been for a long time. I figure if you don't play, you don't vote, and the only reason you are here complaining is probably because the devs have already blocked your "opinion and feedback" on the official forums.

As to everyone else left in this thread, enjoy your time in game and see you around Azeroth.



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concider for the moment, the timing of when we are getting this (current estimates are no earlier then june, given the precedent of how long prior expansion major patches took from pts to release and this patch is NOT on pts yet). also covenant campaign is STILl time gated as quests unlock with your renown levels. unless you completely no life it, there is nothing poof about getting your renown high enough to finish it. also we already know that we are not getting it from finishing current quests. we will need to finish new quests that will be added with the patch, and we also know that they will NOT be available all at once. we do not know whether renown requirement to unlock them all will go up and if yes - by how much. so in a way, we are STILL grinding rep. it just has a different name.

People keep saying "renown", but renown has nothing to do with the 9.1 "campaign". Yes, the campaign may be gated for 2 weeks, or 2 months, but unless Blizz goes completely back on their word, renown will play no part. (And with that I am out.)

[Witchblade77]

People keep saying "renown", but renown has nothing to do with the 9.1 "campaign". Yes, the campaign may be gated for 2 weeks, or 2 months, but unless Blizz goes completely back on their word, renown will play no part. (And with that I am out.)

except, right now you need what.. 24 renown? to be able to do all the existing chapters? I may be off by a few levels, but its 20 something. and current max level renown is 40. do you honestly, genuinely think they are NOT going to require at least renown 40 to do the first quest? we DO have a precedent of minimum renown required to unlock campaign quests already. so yeah, renown has something to do with it already.

[Lei]

I snipped the bluster. So let's stick to the facts.

According to an interview with Blizzard done by Eurogamer, Shadowlands is the fastest selling Blizzard title of all time with 3.7M copies sold on launch day and more game time logged in the first 4 months of Shadowlands than any other WoW expansion. BusinessWire agreed and even stated it was the fastest selling PC game of all time industry wide. All of this in the midst of a pandemic no less, and hard financial times for a lot of people. Gamezindustry.biz and Comicbook.com also concurred with the claim.

Like with any expansion, about 40% rushed through the content and have unsubbed to play other things until patch 9.1. We see this in every expac, and each spell between PTR and patch drops. According to the numbers at MMO Population, we are still seeing nearly 6 million players per day logging into WoW meaning, there was at least 10M when the expac dropped, and will be again when 9.1 arrives, or close to it.

The only thing wrong with this expansion is the vocal minority who has some deep seeded hate for Blizzard's direction and the need to shout everyone else down to prove them wrong, or get them to simply give up and walk away. So I will go one better. I've provided actual facts to show the game is still being enjoyed, and this very popular and well planned expansion will see its usual influx of logins during patch drops. Since you called me out for dodging facts, I will do the same. You are unsubbed and have been for a long time. I figure if you don't play, you don't vote, and the only reason you are here complaining is probably because the devs have already blocked your "opinion and feedback" on the official forums.

As to everyone else left in this thread, enjoy your time in game and see you around Azeroth.



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People keep saying "renown", but renown has nothing to do with the 9.1 "campaign". Yes, the campaign may be gated for 2 weeks, or 2 months, but unless Blizz goes completely back on their word, renown will play no part. (And with that I am out.)

Wow, that data from "mmo-population" is obviously waaay off.
And then you can't really rush through content because literally everything is gated. Covenant campaign: gated, sanctum upgrades: gated (anima farm). Gearing: gated, weekly vault... So what content could've anyone rushed through?

[WowIsDead64]

I snipped the bluster. So let's stick to the facts.

According to an interview with Blizzard done by Eurogamer, Shadowlands is the fastest selling Blizzard title of all time with 3.7M copies sold on launch day and more game time logged in the first 4 months of Shadowlands than any other WoW expansion. BusinessWire agreed and even stated it was the fastest selling PC game of all time industry wide. All of this in the midst of a pandemic no less, and hard financial times for a lot of people. Gamezindustry.biz and Comicbook.com also concurred with the claim.

Like with any expansion, about 40% rushed through the content and have unsubbed to play other things until patch 9.1. We see this in every expac, and each spell between PTR and patch drops. According to the numbers at MMO Population, we are still seeing nearly 6 million players per day logging into WoW meaning, there was at least 10M when the expac dropped, and will be again when 9.1 arrives, or close to it.

The only thing wrong with this expansion is the vocal minority who has some deep seeded hate for Blizzard's direction and the need to shout everyone else down to prove them wrong, or get them to simply give up and walk away. So I will go one better. I've provided actual facts to show the game is still being enjoyed, and this very popular and well planned expansion will see its usual influx of logins during patch drops. Since you called me out for dodging facts, I will do the same. You are unsubbed and have been for a long time. I figure if you don't play, you don't vote, and the only reason you are here complaining is probably because the devs have already blocked your "opinion and feedback" on the official forums.

As to everyone else left in this thread, enjoy your time in game and see you around Azeroth.

We already know, that it's happened due to aggressive marketing, i.e. Blizzard releasing some paid articles, where it was said, that all (or at least many) BFA's problems are solved in SL - you now have catch-ups, problems with alts are solved, it's no longer "you can play on one character only", blah blah blah. Even I was tricked into buying SL before return of flying, as I usually do. But we already know, that it's BS. What was fixed - is just may be two weeks of content. Beyond that there is nothing to do in this game. And SuperData already shows, that subs are returned back to normal.

[SirCowdog]

I snipped the bluster. So let's stick to the facts.

Wants to stick to the "facts".
Snips "bluster" because it doesn't match his misrepresentation of my point of view.

I can see this is going to go well

. All of this in the midst of a pandemic no less, and hard financial times for a lot of people.

And speaking of snipping and misrepresentation....

The gaming industry as a whole is booming BECAUSE of the pandemic. Relative to other forms of entertainment, videogames are a massively better investment of money. Time-eating MMORPGs especially when you consider how many people are stuck in quarantine or working from home or just plain out of work.

And are you really going to try to use sub numbers to support your case, when Blizzard themselves steered clear of it as a measure of success? When the very expansion that introduced the concept of WoW without flying suffered a drop in subs so harsh that it lead Blizzard to that stance?

As for facts....the only one you provided was the rate of sale, while attempting to paint it in a favorable light for your argument. And there's nothing to say the same numbers would have been effected one way or another by a WoW with flying......since you seem to be implying that those figures are somehow in support of wow's design without flight.

I don't believe I've ever "shouted down" anyone on this topic. I might mock particularly stand-out examples of ignorance. But its generally people and posts like yours that bring that out in me. You've constantly made assumptions about my views, and claims based on things I've never actually said or espoused.

You seem to think that heavy criticism of the open world design means that I hate wow as a whole. You've tried to put words in my mouth. You've claimed that I must be banned from the official forums. You even implied that my opinion doesn't matter.

I may dislike and criticize blizzards open world design, but the only person filled with hate here seems to be you.

I want the open world to be better. I want Blizzard to DO better. But it seems like every time that gets suggested someone comes along and feels the need to shit on everything that could possibly make that happen, or pretends that the grounded design is so perfect that any change to it would somehow mar perfection.

Anywya, it's clear we're not going to any sort of agreement. And I don't need to subject myself to any further misrepresentation. Have fun in world of instancecraft, and we'll see what actually happens in 9.1.

[Dazu]

except, right now you need what.. 24 renown? to be able to do all the existing chapters? I may be off by a few levels, but its 20 something. and current max level renown is 40. do you honestly, genuinely think they are NOT going to require at least renown 40 to do the first quest? we DO have a precedent of minimum renown required to unlock campaign quests already. so yeah, renown has something to do with it already.

Well reknown is only a few hours or maybe a few days to catchup depending on play time and if you have help to boost forward. At most you should be reknowned cap just doing callings and quests in 3 weeks max right now which would also earn you thousands of anima and tens of thousands of gold anyway for very little play time committment.
Also seeing as flying is likely account wide you only need to do it on one character.

[WowIsDead64]

And I don't even talk about simple fact, that only casual content, added in 9.1 - is even more Maw. You know, I skipped Argus for reason. This makes it reasonable to return only may be in 9.2, i.e. it's again "no game till x.2" concept. And returning half a year before pre-patch, that will most likely destroy SL's content, so I won't be able to fully experience it - is bad idea. So, almost whole xpack is already doomed to fail. It's inevitable. It's, again, "We already knew during Alpha/Beta, that it would fail". Why it's always so simple to know, that xpack will fail, and why it's always so hard to fix it in time?