I think Blizzard should go back to end of Legion and start over

[Dracullus]

Blizzard turns right -> Community screams "TURN LEFT" -> Blizzard doesn't listen -> Community screams louder -> Blizzard turns left -> Community screams "TURN RIGHT".

And repeat. What I would really like are time travelers from Legion to discuss how current legendaries, gear and anima "grind" are shit.

[aceperson]

So yeah, I highly doubt they'll just delete BFA and start over a BFA 2.0 that's completely logical and has been done before by a game developer before

OH wait

That's literally the dumbest shit I've ever read in my entire life

isn't that basically what ff14 did?

[Niwes]

If I could describe the state of retail wow right now I would describe it like the worst game mode in the game has become the best thing and the best game mode has become the worst thing

What im talking about is this
Ive played wow for 15 years and the only thing ive never gotten into is RBGs(Rated Battleground). In Shadowlands however RBGs is the nr 1 game mode
I base this statement on how good rewards the game offers compared to difficulty level and also on how the game mode feels compared to other ones in the game
RBGs has not acctualy changed anything at all with Shadowlands launched, instead everything else than RBGs has just been made worse until eventualy RBGs came out on top
And what does that say about Blizzards game adjustments over the last 2 expansions?

The more time passes the more I keep thinking about what an amazing expansion Legion was, how the hell did we end up here
I would def say that Legion was the best time Ive ever had in WoW. I PvPed(well not RBGs) I did m+ I raided I played multiple classes. It was all good
Then when BFA launched it was basicaly a rug pull because all the good ideas in Legion was destroyed with it

There are 3 major elements of the game im talking about here

1. Every spec is stuck in the Mediocre zone now

The big difference between what we had in Legion compared to BFA and Shadowlands is that the artifact weapon system was basicaly another Talent system
The reason behind this is that it consisted of interactive spells and effects that synergized very good with the spec just like how things are developed in a talent tree

The Azerite system had only passive effects from Head Should Chest and the neck system was never niched towards each class separately
The conduit system is also just a bunch of passive effects and general made interactive effects that arent niched towards each class separately

Let me explain
lets take Frost Mage for example

In Legion Frost mage had 2 interactive spells/effects in the artifact system, Ebonbolt and Freezing Rain
Both of these things was made into talents in BFA BUT it did so by replacing other things in the talent tree INSTEAD of being added as a complete new talent row
This was the big mistake nr 1
Then this exact same mistake was made again in Shadowlands

The game has been stuck with 7 Talent rows for a long time now
Because the game havent offered any new system with taylor made interactive spells we should probably be at 9 talent rows by now to make specs feel as good as they did in Legion

If we only consider what we currently have in the game atm,
If I would brainstorm what Shadowlands would actually look like if it would feel like Legion it means everyone would be running around with 2 legendaries now (maybe a 1 offensive and 1 defensive restriction even) and also there would be an additional "talent system" with some of the interactive anima powers from Torghast for use outside of Torghast

2. M+ has gone from the best thing ever created in modern WoW to the worst thing currently in modern wow

I have tracked my own participation on how much I did m+ in each expansion and the chart of this looks like a at the end of Legion its a steady decline in which towards the end it drops harder to eventualy reach 0, the rock bottom
Thats where we are right now
the rock bottom is how I would describe M+ right now compared to the absolute peak it was in the begining of Legion

M+ in the early days had 3 important elements that was the foundation of what made it fun
1. It promoted Speedrunning with a 3 chest loot system
2. Big AoE pulls was encouraged because classes were designed to be able to AoE
3. Rewards

They have done absoutely everything to kill these 3 things the last 2 expansions, they have even gone as far as actualy capping AoE spells which to me was basicaly the final nail on the coffin
RIP

The 3 chest loot system was brilliant and never needed any adjustment as it ticked of both Speedrunning and Rewards in one go, the problem was always the Titanforged/Warforged system but they adjusted the wrong thing back in Legion when they removed the 3 chest system

I think who ever created m+ in Legion designed it the perfect way when it launched
The only problem m+ had in legion was that people prefered to run shorter dungeons over longer ones which there yet has been nothing done about
Instead they have done absoutely everything to fix things that were never broken

3. The loot reward systems for PvE and PvP feels completely opposite to what its supposed to be

Shadowlands
Getting legendaries has a limit
Conquest points has a limit
Valor points will have a limit

Legion
No limit how much u can farm legendaries
No limit how much u can farm PvP gear
No limit on m+ gear at all as the WF/TF system also made items possible to be on par with raiding gear

Out of Valor points and WF/TF systems I acctualy prefer valor points as the right solution but because it has a limit the WF TF system insteads come out on top.

Why does all of this matter? Being able to farm things are all reasons to play the game. If everything got a limit there eventually is not any reason to play the game

„If I could describe the state of retail wow right now I would describe it like the worst game mode in the game has become the best thing and the best game mode has become the worst thing“

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT ???????

Dude, you SERIOUSLY have to learn using commas and periods! SERIOUSLY!

[schwarzkopf]

The summary as usual is that <current expansion> is the worst expansion ever.

Some things just never change

[Zyky]

snip

Legion wasn't a strong expansion either, just saying. It had more systems that players hated than systems players liked. The only good thing about Legion was the addition of M+, everything else was pretty terrible from 3 of 5 raids tuned around hard grinding your artifact weapon, legendaries being RNG drops within a pool where 90% of them were worthless, imbalanced PvP where tanks were pretty dominant the entire expansion, just to name a few. Blizzard would need to go back much further than Legion for Blizzard to have great design again. The issue is, they keep believing they know what players want instead of listening to the droves of players who give consistently the same feedback.

[Lochton]

Yeah, that is not going to happen.

[froschhure]

Sl is so frigging bad and I wonder if the message of this addon is "how bad can we balance this to scare annoying people away"
Anything is better at this state

[ro9ue]

I think it should've been MoP > Legion > something we didn't get. WoD , BFA and so far SL seem like weak expansions.

[Relapses]

tl,dr -- I liked Legion. Make Legion again.

[erifwodahs]

Agree on Legion being the best of WoW, even if there were flaws, it was most amazing WoW experience I had excluding when I started playing (duh).
That being said, I don't think it would fix things. I don't think they can push out Legion quality expansion in 2 years tbh.

[Akka]

Hmf...go back to the storyline of WoD and start over...and all that followed.

Yeah. Don't understand how anyone can consider the clusterfuck of comic book alternate universes to be worth keeping.

[LionSinMaikeru]

Kind of agree, except instead of Legion they should go back to the beginning of Wrath and start over.

Everything after patch 3.3.0 was the beginning of the fall. So many bad decisions that damaged immersion, the playerbase, and gameplay began with 3.3.0.



They have a rare opportunity with Classic WoW (since we're now in TBC) to go in a completely different direction. We'll see if they take it.

[Doffen]

BfA is finally over so we don't need to go back so we get another shit expansion like BfA again.

Pass!

[Bibarel]

Legion had some good stuff (lots of class content, introduced M+, Suramar was awesome, etc), but it also harmed the game in a lot of ways. Some examples:
1. Most classes were reworked for either "builder-spender" or "press cooldowns go brr" or both. High level artefacts + wearing 2 powerful legos kind of added a lot of flavor and made things feel quite good, but when the borrowed shinies were gone we ended up with very badly designed classes. Demo locks and survival hunters are also a product of Legion's class design philosophy.
2. Huge imbalance between rewards and effort. I feel like easy content in Legion was waaaay overrewarding - tons of loot, TF procs, random drop legos, AP. Spamming 3 chest +10s was more beneficial than pushing keys, for example. You could get all the gear you need from heroic, and Mythic was just a pain in the ass (especially Tomb). It should not be like that. Harder content = better rewards. Now we got the other extreme, when most content is not rewarding enough, which is also bad.
3. Infinite grinds + constant catch-ups (artefact knowledge). I think that these mechanics basically throw player time into a trash can. Like, you spend 3 hours to level your artefact this week. Next month some other guy will get the same amount in 15 minutes. One month later people will get it for free via catch-up. This is just insanely disrespectful to player time.

Shadowlands has its issues and many things need fixes, but I do feel that many steps were in right direction (more determenistic loot, unpruning, no infinite grinds) and hope they will continue to imrove the game in this direction.

[erifwodahs]

Blizzard turns right -> Community screams "TURN LEFT" -> Blizzard doesn't listen -> Community screams louder -> Blizzard turns left -> Community screams "TURN RIGHT".

And repeat. What I would really like are time travelers from Legion to discuss how current legendaries, gear and anima "grind" are shit.

They are not shit. It's just.. does not click? Legion was amazing combination of everything, but you can't do that for 6 years in a row.
I don't think that you will find anyone saying, that Legendaries at the start of Legion were great, but other than that it had everything, max level progress, max level story quests, 10 (?) dungeons on launch, "old talents", m+ with TF felt like drugs, WQs were new and cool thing, which I can't be bothered to touch at all. Give that to us now, and probably only max level story would float, everything else would be more of the same. I mean we have that - WQs, m+, max lvl zone (tho compare it to Suramar is like comparing Wailing Caverns with Ulduar so I guess we can cross it out). We also have torghast, but the shittiest iteration of if Blizz managed to do. I truly believe they could have done a good Legion 2.0 with SL with another year of production. Oh well.

[Lei]

This.

Also if you would ever want to get back to consistent story (at least somewhat) you would have to go back to MoP and never do the alternative timeline BS.

This.
Saying this as someone who appreciates what WoD could have been. There was so much potentional just with the story and the orc clans. I can still feel the smell of BC nostalgy everywhere when I go there. Ahhhh.

[Cosmic Janitor]

If we go back and undo major fuck ups, then it would probably be worth it to go back to mop, kill orc hitler again and then don't do a fucking time travel nonsense expansion. Edit: And I loved legion as far as most of the lore goes would miss most of the orderhall and zone stuff, especially suramar. But if you want to undo everything, you might as well go the extra mile and fix one of the lowest points in the games history.

[LemonDemonGirl]

To be fair, that sounds like what happened with FF14.

Can't see Blizzard doing it with wow after so many years, but it's not exactly unprecedented.

Wait, FF14 did this?

OT: Unless we go to an AU and travel back in time, this probably isn't happening lol

[Cosmic Janitor]

Wait, FF14 did this?

When they relaunched the game with RR (realm reborn), they essentially dropped a moon on the planet which contained a big evil doomsday dragon and one the guardians of the world sends you through time. cinematic

[Alraml]

Wait, FF14 did this?

OT: Unless we go to an AU and travel back in time, this probably isn't happening lol

No they just causes a world ending event as an excuse to fix their horrifically bad game

After that they copied a great deal of things from wow and now the current expansion is Heavensward v3

There’s plenty of good things to say about 14 but while WoW IMO gets overly criticised 14 gets under-criticised

I couldn’t imagine the fury if wow introduced a class to the game that couldn’t do endgame content with the other classes and was relegated to old content and an event that gets updated every 6-9 months