Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

[Unholyground]

They don't need to so there will always be friction for PvP, but the developers can and definitely will let us play together at some point.

[Shedaar]

Well, I'm going to be blunt but Nazi Germany did much worse to Polish people and other nations, and yet we live in peace now.

[Makabreska]

Well, I'm going to be blunt but Nazi Germany did much worse to Polish people and other nations, and yet we live in peace now.

Well, not considering certain animosity that always remains after stuff like that, people responsible of those RL wars are long dead. Meanwhile on Azeroth they are alive and scheming. So are those who witnessed their crimes.

[mickybrighteyes]

What war did Genn start? Blackhand started the first war, and Gilneas didn't take part. Doomhammer started the second. Arthas, Daelin, or Kel'thuzad the third, depending on how you define the third war, and only the Gilnean renegades took part, so associating that war with Genn seems silly. The Horde-Alliance War was started by Varian. The war with Gilneas was started by Garrosh. The Fourth War was started by Sylvanas.

Genn was part of the initiation of the attack on the Horde in Stormheim, which was after the treaty following the Horde-Alliance war. However, that treaty had already been violated in Ashran when the factions started attacking one another again and gathering mounds of bones from the other faction's dead as trophies to display in their garrisons. There was no other treaty after that; the Horde and Alliance only worked together in one instance after that point, which was the Battle of the Broken Shore, in which the factions claimed territory in different parts of the island and avoided contact with one another (a far cry from periods of peace where they would literally intermingle their bases).

I'm not condoning Genn's actions. But let's not pretend they came clear out of left field when the factions had already been in open conflict following their last peace treaty, the Order Halls were founded because the factions weren't cooperating properly, and Sylvanas left the Alliance in a state of feeling betrayed because she couldn't be bothered to send a single missive explaining the situation that happened at the Broken Shore.

Ashran is a mess because how far should a treaty allow? When one side is found out to be making plays for their own advantage and possible moves what does it matter.... This is similar to the later Silithus fiasco where SI:7 was hounding the goblins with some other fallout that is largely ignored (cause it really muddies up the stated events of the 'Fourth' war.... which is really the 5th war because the lore team can't count apparently).

But yeah, the only shit Genn Started was Stormheim and some people will argue that should be a casus belli for a larger war like what BFA turned out to be (one of a few events that make for better casus belli then Sylvanas felt like starting war and thus the story said so)

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Well, not considering certain animosity that always remains after stuff like that, people responsible of those RL wars are long dead. Meanwhile on Azeroth they are alive and scheming. So are those who witnessed their crimes.

actually.... it wasn't THAT long ago. Some parties responsible are still alive. An example just got exiled out of the USA within the past couple months. Granted it has been much longer timewise for the RL events at 80~ years now vs... what? 10~20 in game with the current timeline since the first war being around 40 years total?

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You are aware that the Alliance is younger than the Horde, having been formed in WC2 as a response to the Horde's continued expansion northward. It hasn't been around ten thousand years.

Now, if you're considering the history of the Alliance races, then the Horde races that have committed such atrocities include the blood elves' genocide of the trolls during your aforementioned wars, the nightborne's destruction of the troll empire at the same time the night elves performed such acts, the orcs' destruction of the draenei, the trolls' destruction of the aqir, the trolls' attack on the Tol'vir, the trolls' attack on the pandaren, etc. Most of the races are not innocent. Were the troll wars with the humans and elves atrocious for the trolls? Yes. I'm not saying that humans and elves are innocent. But that doesn't make the trolls themselves or the orcs suddenly innocent of their atrocities either.

actually the horde is younger than the alliance. The current horde wasn't formed till post 3rd war and the alliance is the remains of what forces united against the first orcish invasions.

A problem is both share names with organizations going back further and there have been at least 5 different hordes in the history under different leadership. Like Doomhammer, Blackhand, Guldan... Thrall and Garrosh (Gary having two different hordes that affected the MU setting).

So even if we're talking the Alliance of Stormwind that included Quel'thalas and ironforge (from the third war) that's still older than the horde that was founded under Thrall.

[Makabreska]

actually.... it wasn't THAT long ago. Some parties responsible are still alive. An example just got exiled out of the USA within the past couple months. Granted it has been much longer timewise for the RL events at 80~ years now vs... what? 10~20 in game with the current timeline since the first war being around 40 years total?

Was talking more about leadership of that time.

[Aresk]

actually the horde is younger than the alliance. The current horde wasn't formed till post 3rd war and the alliance is the remains of what forces united against the first orcish invasions.

A problem is both share names with organizations going back further and there have been at least 5 different hordes in the history under different leadership. Like Doomhammer, Blackhand, Guldan... Thrall and Garrosh (Gary having two different hordes that affected the MU setting).

So even if we're talking the Alliance of Stormwind that included Quel'thalas and ironforge (from the third war) that's still older than the horde that was founded under Thrall.

The Alliance of Lordaeron is younger than the Horde that was around during its inception. Regardless of whether that Horde was this Horde or that Alliance was this Alliance, the Alliance is far younger than the 10k year history that the original poster was citing for Alliance crimes.

But yeah, the Horde (Shadow Council's, Doomhammer's, Ner'zhul's, Thrall's, Garrosh's first, Vol'jin's, and Sylvanas's all used the unqualified moniker "Horde"), True Horde (Garrosh's second), Iron Horde (Garrosh's third), Dark Horde (Rend Blackhand's), and Fel Horde (Magtheridan's and Illidan's) can lead to confusion. I personally consider the Shadow Council's Horde under Blackhand to be the same ruled by Doomhammer after he beat Blackhand, to be the same as Thrall's when Doomhammer gave him the title, to be the same as Garrosh's first when Thrall handed down the title, to be the same as Vol'jin's when Thrall gave it to him, to be the same as Sylvanas's when Vol'jin named her Warchief, to be the same as the one currently ruled by the Horde Council. I consider Ner'zhul's Horde and the Dark Horde to be splinters (given they took over in a power vacuum caused by Doomhammer's capture but were not officially named by Doomhammer or seized via combat) and thus not part of the "Horde", with the True Horde a splinter formed by Garrosh's machinations, and the Fel Horde being a splinter of Ner'zhul's (the orcs remaining on Draenor). I recognize that some people draw additional distinctions (e.g. the aforementioned Thrall's Horde being separate from Doomhammer's), though given there's a solid line of succession between Blackhand and Sylvanas, I personally think of it as the same organization.

[mickybrighteyes]

I personally consider the Shadow Council's Horde under Blackhand to be the same ruled by Doomhammer after he beat Blackhand, to be the same as Thrall's when Doomhammer gave him the title, to be the same as Garrosh's first when Thrall handed down the title, to be the same as Vol'jin's when Thrall gave it to him, to be the same as Sylvanas's when Vol'jin named her Warchief, to be the same as the one currently ruled by the Horde Council.

I disagree, the horde that Doomhammer lead was beaten into submission, broken and captured or scattered to the wind. Regardless of whether Thrall was named his successor or not the whole thing was scattered to the wind with no holds to call home and no allies remaining.

Thrall's escape to Kalimdor and founding of Orgrimmar was an entirely new entity with new almost entirely membership with very few beings or groups from the prior established horde and was hostile with the horde that came to exist. In a way it's like calling the current human nations of the alliance the seven kingdoms... despite that only one of the Seven originating nations remained as an established nation in it's own right.

I consider Ner'zhul's Horde and the Dark Horde to be splinters (given they took over in a power vacuum caused by Doomhammer's capture but were not officially named by Doomhammer or seized via combat) and thus not part of the "Horde", with the True Horde a splinter formed by Garrosh's machinations, and the Fel Horde being a splinter of Ner'zhul's (the orcs remaining on Draenor). I recognize that some people draw additional distinctions (e.g. the aforementioned Thrall's Horde being separate from Doomhammer's), though given there's a solid line of succession between Blackhand and Sylvanas, I personally think of it as the same organization.

I think it's more that somewhere along the way we have an organization that is totally different from inception that it's not the same in any respect... and that the organization was wiped out utterly and completely. On top of that we have to realize that the orcs as a racial group (and the authors) are very bad at picking names and keep using the same one for every large group mobilizing under singular leadership.

[Soon-TM]

but what authority does Anduin exactly have here?

I mean... Andy is the High King, i.e. the highest ranked military officer in the entire Alliance. If he cannot properly punish a subordinate who clearly disobeys him, and is responsible for a major diplomatic incident (to say the least) on top, then either a) the High King title is completely empty, since it carries no weight whatsoever, or b) Anduin was implicitly in agreement with Genn, in which case his mellow "peace" rhetoric is nothing but a hogwash.

[Super Dickmann]

I disagree, the horde that Doomhammer lead was beaten into submission, broken and captured or scattered to the wind. Regardless of whether Thrall was named his successor or not the whole thing was scattered to the wind with no holds to call home and no allies remaining.

Thrall's escape to Kalimdor and founding of Orgrimmar was an entirely new entity with new almost entirely membership with very few beings or groups from the prior established horde and was hostile with the horde that came to exist. In a way it's like calling the current human nations of the alliance the seven kingdoms... despite that only one of the Seven originating nations remained as an established nation in it's own right.

Doomhammer had already broken out and was Warchief at the time Thrall did things. The orcs he commands were Doomhammer's orcs, the plate he wears is Doomhammer's plate, ditto the hammer he uses, which is quite literally the Doomhammer. Doomhammer passes him leadership directly and nothing structurally changes in the way the Horde works, Blood Oath and all.

[Shedaar]

Well, not considering certain animosity that always remains after stuff like that, people responsible of those RL wars are long dead. Meanwhile on Azeroth they are alive and scheming. So are those who witnessed their crimes.

Agree, but for only few more years

[mickybrighteyes]

Doomhammer had already broken out and was Warchief at the time Thrall did things. The orcs he commands were Doomhammer's orcs, the plate he wears is Doomhammer's plate, ditto the hammer he uses, which is quite literally the Doomhammer. Doomhammer passes him leadership directly and nothing structurally changes in the way the Horde works, Blood Oath and all.

nothing changes beyond new base of operations... totally new roster of followers and leaving behind most of the people that would have been Doomhammer's forces since it was only 4 ships crossing the ocean.

Fact remains that there's little if anything left of what passes as the horde of Doomhammer fleeing the Eastern Kingdoms on those few ships.

[Shadowferal]

Don't think so...

[Super Dickmann]

nothing changes beyond new base of operations... totally new roster of followers and leaving behind most of the people that would have been Doomhammer's forces since it was only 4 ships crossing the ocean.

Fact remains that there's little if anything left of what passes as the horde of Doomhammer fleeing the Eastern Kingdoms on those few ships.

Doomhammer quite literally appoints Thrall Warchief, Thrall wears his duds, changes nothing about the structure of the Horde save for allowing other races which make the same oath as the orcs and names his capital city after him and other outposts after members of the Horde. The New Horde is like New Labour, a branding exercise and directional change, not a whole new group.

[Darth-Piekus]

Personally I'm very curious to see how Anduin will come out of this ordeal. He is gonna be a changed person but by how much. What if he suddenly turns into something different. Imagine a scenario where Anduin blames the Horde for what happened from Cataclysm till now and starts a whole crusade in all of Azeroth using every means nessesary.

[Soon-TM]

Personally I'm very curious to see how Anduin will come out of this ordeal. He is gonna be a changed person but by how much. What if he suddenly turns into something different. Imagine a scenario where Anduin blames the Horde for what happened from Cataclysm till now and starts a whole crusade in all of Azeroth using every means nessesary.

Nah, Blizzard isn't going to take such a dump on their beloved Golden Boi. I can already see him becoming Green Jesus 2.0 come the next xpac.

Now, if he was Horde, you might very well be right about him becoming a warmongering moron overnight.

[Shadowferal]

"I am your savior..."

That would go well...

[Darth-Piekus]

Nah, Blizzard isn't going to take such a dump on their beloved Golden Boi. I can already see him becoming Green Jesus 2.0 come the next xpac.

Now, if he was Horde, you might very well be right about him becoming a warmongering moron overnight.

I think you might be mistaken about character development. Garrosh was always a bad apple from the moment he set foot on Azeroth. Sylvannas was the same bad apple the moment she died and came back as a Banshee. They certainly did not do a 180 turn overnight. They were always like that. Anduin however wasn't written to be a bad apple. That is why I am curious if this whole ordeal will change him and make him like the hypothetical scenario.

[Soon-TM]

Garrosh was always a bad apple

Incorrect. Having actual flaws =/= being "a bad apple".

Sylvannas was the same bad apple the moment she died and came back as a Banshee.

So the isolationist, fiercely independent Sylvanas of WC3/early WoW who saw her undeath as a disgrace, became first an imperialist moron with messianic undertones (undeath is a superior state, embrace it guyz!), and then she relinquished her freedom by tying her fate to the guy who is ultimately responsible for all the !@#$ she went through. Remember when she chastised the dreadlords in WC3? Now she's their handmaiden lul. Yeah, top character development there.

[Darth-Piekus]

When I say he was a bad apple I meant that he was always like this and that was the words of the devs not mine. Sylvannas as a character was scarred the moment she died becoming a Lie, Backstabbing person who used everyone else (Forsaken,the Horde) to get her Revenge on Arthas while she also had an agenda to turn on the living at some point. Seeing the Jailer and allying with him simply gave her more weapons to achive that.

[Soon-TM]

When I say he was a bad apple I meant that he was always like this and that was the words of the devs not mine

Source please.

Sylvannas as a character was scarred the moment she died becoming a Lie, Backstabbing person who used everyone else (Forsaken,the Horde) to get her Revenge on Arthas while she also had an agenda to turn on the living at some point. Seeing the Jailer and allying with him simply gave her more weapons to achive that.

And she didn't even get her revenge on Arthas, which was reserved to Tirion Sue. Also that "agenda to turn on the living at some point" was pulled straight out of Afrasiabi's rear and promptly dropped, as it happened with many of his "ideas". Pre BtS Sylvanas is incompatible with her BtS depiction, and the latter is also incompatible with her BfA depiction... which in turn is incompatible with her SL depiction (so far). Indeed, top character development there. There is nothing in common between the four iterations of Sylv, other than a generic af "undead bad gurl" motto.