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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    This is 100% wrong.
    Since you've never been right...but if I recall California spends 23 billion every year on the illegal immigration issue that you obviously deny as well.

  2. #22
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Is that the same one? I haven't been able to look at the one this thread but keywords were turning that up over and over. I thought it was different since it's like, super old and doesn't seem to come to the same conclusions OP did?
    It cites the same 400bn Euro costs over the time line. It's conclusion were pretty agnostic. I imagine it's been sensationalized by neo-nazi forums since then.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Since you've never been right...but if I recall California spends 23 billion every year on the illegal immigration issue that you obviously deny as well.
    If those are the FAIR numbers...yeah, those are garbage. It's a hardline anti-immigrant organization. It also clashes with other projections from conservative anti-immigration outfits like the Heritage Foundation, which had earlier pegged the national annual cost at around $50B.

    There's little hard data on how much money goes towards illegal immigrants in terms of things like education/law enforcement etc., and similarly there's little data on how much they economically contribute as many still pay taxes (especially sales taxes etc.).

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Sure, as long as you have consent from the people who are actually paying for it. If not then you're eventually going to run into problems.
    "Consent" to do what? Prevent people from living (or dying) in the streets?

  5. #25
    I mean everything costs money so why would immigation be any different.. 25 years is also a pretty massive window too when you consider 400 billion dollars total. It's like 160 million bucks a year? Utter chump change to governments. I am sure you have sporting teams that have high payrolls than that and they just kick a ball around.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Since you've never been right...but if I recall California spends 23 billion every year on the illegal immigration issue that you obviously deny as well.
    If that's all CA spent on illegal immigration, I consider it a bargain. CA cash receipt from agriculture products alone was 50 billion in 2019. Combined economic activities related with agriculture is well in excess of 100 billion. California private construction industry (another sector heavily dependent on illegal immigrants) spending was over 1 billion in Jan 2021. Which is usually the slowest time of the year for the construction industry in CA.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Found the original study here:
    https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/fil...ch-economy.pdf

    From 2003 .... Looks like this trhead is just an attempt to clickbait and troll the forum. By bashing immigrants.


    I wish that MMOC would reign in immigrant bashing, it's mostly a proxy for racisms.
    Nice try to frame it once again. Seems like one of the names on there was also part of the study from 2003. Academics kinda do that you know.. research more than one thing over their lifetime. Someone not willing to frame this topic would have the decency to atleast look at all the names and notice the research i pulled is actually about numbers way passed 2003. Your intentions are clear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Is that the same one? I haven't been able to look at the one this thread but keywords were turning that up over and over. I thought it was different since it's like, super old and doesn't seem to come to the same conclusions OP did?
    No hes trying to derail and lock the thread since he cant pull the racist card.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    It wouldn't even be a big deal if I didn't have a sneaking suspicion that he linked that directly (instead of the site he originally found it on) because we'd have to take his word for it...
    The funny thing is that alot of sites dont report on it at the moment (elections are in 20 days, sneaking suspicion here they dont want an entire country pulling to the far right). The one national paper that did publish it is behind a paywall. Few regional papers still talked about it though.

    The thing is highly controversial as its not done to question the cost of immigration and it hasnt been done in 15 years (the 2003 one was the last one).
    Last edited by Thereturn; 2021-03-05 at 06:44 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Thereturn View Post
    No hes trying to derail and lock the thread since he cant pull the racist card.
    Yeah, because your xenophobic OP linking to 300+ pages of foreign language isn't sufficient grounds as is to lock your thread.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  9. #29
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thereturn View Post
    Nice try to frame it once again. Seems like one of the names on there was also part of the study from 2003. Academics kinda do that you know.. research more than one thing over their lifetime. Someone not willing to frame this topic would have the decency to atleast look at all the names and notice the research i pulled is actually about numbers way passed 2003. Your intentions are clear.
    You posted doctored and broken links.

    This demonstrates an intention of misrepresentation and bad faith.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Thereturn View Post
    No hes trying to derail and lock the thread since he cant pull the racist card.
    I mean, is there any English analysis/discussion of this study anywhere? I tried translating it and it wasn't workin and I can't find hide nor hair of this study you linked anywhere, especially not in English.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I mean, is there any English analysis/discussion of this study anywhere? I tried translating it and it wasn't workin and I can't find hide nor hair of this study you linked anywhere, especially not in English.
    He asked us to use google translate, but unfortunately google translate didn't want to cooperate due to it's excessive length.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I mean, is there any English analysis/discussion of this study anywhere? I tried translating it and it wasn't workin and I can't find hide nor hair of this study you linked anywhere, especially not in English.
    Doesn’t appear to be. Lets hope google gets up to speed regarding translations for discussions sake. Its silly that in every discussion people scream ‘Wheresyurproof!’ And when you have it they go ‘english plz’. The naysayers have it. Lock it then.

    Mind you there will be a day where even the biggest ostrich cant dismiss the facts anymore based on faulty google translates and racism cards.
    Last edited by Thereturn; 2021-03-05 at 06:55 PM.

  13. #33
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I mean, is there any English analysis/discussion of this study anywhere? I tried translating it and it wasn't workin and I can't find hide nor hair of this study you linked anywhere, especially not in English.
    Dug deeper .... my Dutch is limited to just a few months living in Eindhoven. But the Dutch newspaper Volkskrant has an explainer.

    TLDR:
    • The Dutch Right Wing NeoNazi Party had their think tank Forum voor Democratie, FvD commission a report to complain about immigrants.
    • Neo Nazis are bad at research. So they mostly took the old 2003 report and used it as a basis for cherry picking data out of context.
    • Neo Nazis tried to launder this report through the University of Amsterdam
    • Neo Nazis are now trying to launder this on Gaming Forums


    Last Thursday, de Volkskrant reported on the report Grenzeloze welfare state. The consequences of immigration on public finances . The conclusion is that immigration from Asia and Africa in particular has cost the Dutch treasury some 400 billion in the past 25 years and that if we continue like this, at least another 600 billion will be added over the next two decades. If we take all costs into account, we would even arrive at 50 billion a year. The authors therefore argue for drastically restricting immigration, especially from the 'non-West' and reducing asylum migration to 90 percent.

    Although the report bears the hallmark of the University of Amsterdam, it was commissioned by the Renaissance Institute of Forum for Democracy. It is therefore not surprising that the University has now asked the authors to remove the logo and references to the UvA. The fact that politicians from FvD, the party leader in the first place, do not exactly excel at taking scientific knowledge seriously, does not mean, however, that we should reject the analysis and outcomes in advance.


    Xenophobic
    The statement that especially asylum seekers and refugees (about 20,000 a year) would cost us 50 billion a year, or one-seventh of the total government budget, seems extremely unlikely to me. This also applies to the proposition that the welfare state will perish due to asylum migration. If that is correct, then the Netherlands, and certainly Germany, would have long since fallen through their hooves. Especially after the 1990s, when the numbers were much higher than in the past decade. Instead, their economies are thriving like never before.

    The report's pessimistic conclusions therefore seem primarily intended to legitimize the xenophobic views of Baudet and his colleagues: that we must stop receiving refugees from Africa and the Middle East, in order to keep Europe 'dominant white', prevent us from being 'replaced' and 'our culture' from being destroyed.

    This rhetoric may be missing from the report, but the political monkey comes out triumphantly at the end, when on the last page all of a sudden there is talk of 'large-scale abuse' of the right to asylum (without proving it) and to conclude that , if we do not cancel the Refugee Convention, the welfare state can no longer be sustained.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    If that's all CA spent on illegal immigration, I consider it a bargain. CA cash receipt from agriculture products alone was 50 billion in 2019. Combined economic activities related with agriculture is well in excess of 100 billion. California private construction industry (another sector heavily dependent on illegal immigrants) spending was over 1 billion in Jan 2021. Which is usually the slowest time of the year for the construction industry in CA.
    The argument that was ongoing was for a push for a way forward for legalizing them.

  15. #35
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Since you've never been right...but if I recall California spends 23 billion every year on the illegal immigration issue that you obviously deny as well.
    If illegal immigration costs $23 billion then we should put an end to illegal immigration. I don't support anything illegal because I'm a law abiding citizen.

    I voted for Trump twice and he was against illegal immigration. I've done all I can do about that topic and it wasn't fully resolved. So I've no other choice than to give up and not care about the topic. *shrug*

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    [*]The Dutch Right Wing NeoNazi Party had their think tank Forum voor Democratie, FvD commission a report to complain about immigrants.
    I saw them pop up in a few articles, however is this confirmed be the group behind the study?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I voted for Trump twice and he was against illegal immigration.
    And immigration in general. If they were brown and from "shithole countries" that weren't like very white Norway.

    Because his opposition to illegal immigration was always based on racism. You voted for a racist shitbird that flagrantly and frequently attempted to break the law and strained the constraints of the law. You can't claim to care about laws and then say, "I voted for the very law abiding Trump", a guy who doesn't abide by the law and largely doesn't care about the law.

  17. #37
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    If illegal immigration costs $23 billion then we should put an end to illegal immigration. I don't support anything illegal because I'm a law abiding citizen.

    I voted for Trump twice and he was against illegal immigration. I've done all I can do about that topic and it wasn't fully resolved. So I've no other choice than to give up and not care about the topic. *shrug*
    So you don’t support any thing illegal but you supported the guy illegally arresting and holding American citizens with ice, illegally doing surgery’s on people coming in from other country’s with ice, and illegally trying to bar asylum seekers?

    Even just going off of immigration issues you seem to support many illegal things.

  18. #38
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I saw them pop up in a few articles, however is this confirmed be the group behind the study?

    - - - Updated - - -



    And immigration in general. If they were brown and from "shithole countries" that weren't like very white Norway.

    Because his opposition to illegal immigration was always based on racism. You voted for a racist shitbird that flagrantly and frequently attempted to break the law and strained the constraints of the law. You can't claim to care about laws and then say, "I voted for the very law abiding Trump", a guy who doesn't abide by the law and largely doesn't care about the law.
    Ya its under one of their think tank sites. Renaissance Instituut, De Kosten van Immigratie. Not giving the benefit of direct linking their racist bullshit.

    Same lead author as the 2003 report. This guy is probably like the Thomas Sowell of NL. The Renaissance Institute is their Hoover Institution.


    Right winger, no imagination, all copypasta

  19. #39
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I saw them pop up in a few articles, however is this confirmed be the group behind the study?
    Even if google translate won't process the WHOLE thing, you can get bits and pieces. So yeah;
    "Tot slot enige woorden over het Renaissance Instituut6 dat een deel van de kosten heeft gefinancierd."
    "Finally, a few words about the Renaissance Institute6, which financed part of the costs."

    6 Het Renaissance Instituut is het wetenschappelijk bureau van het Forum voor Democratie.
    6 The Renaissance Institute is the scientific bureau of the Forum for Democracy.

    Dutch original and Google Translate for the quote and footnote.

    They're definitely the ones financing the piece, and it freely admits it.


  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    but why would anyone from norway want to move to the us?
    They wouldn't, that's the point. "We only want immigration from places that don't want to send us immigrants" = "we don't want immigrants".
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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