A future Turret system

[arkanon]

The issue isn't "pet does damage" the issue is "pet is the only thing doing damage", you aren't sitting back and letting your pet deal all the damage as survival or beastmastery. Your directing it with kill command/beast cleave, your empowering it through your own damaging abilities/rotation, your fighting alongside it not having it fight for you which is the crux of the problem with a turret centric gameplay where the turret is whats doing majority of the damage with no input from the player beyond placing/summoning and upgrading/empowering.

THIS is the point many of us are making - Teriz relies heavily on other Blizzard products to justify the introduction of a turret based class, without acknowledging that in those examples, the turret gameplay style was not well liked by those playing the class, OR those playing against the class. The examples used had their reliance on said "turrets" heavily nerfed and changed, as you outlined (very clearly btw, well done), due to the reasons mentioned in your post, and in many others by other posters - it isnt fun to play, and isnt fun to play against. It is a playstyle Blizzard have actively avoided and nerfed.

[Teriz]

THIS is the point many of us are making - Teriz relies heavily on other Blizzard products to justify the introduction of a turret based class, without acknowledging that in those examples, the turret gameplay style was not well liked by those playing the class, OR those playing against the class. The examples used had their reliance on said "turrets" heavily nerfed and changed, as you outlined (very clearly btw, well done), due to the reasons mentioned in your post, and in many others by other posters - it isnt fun to play, and isnt fun to play against. It is a playstyle Blizzard have actively avoided and nerfed.

Yeah, and yet all of those examples (Gazlowe, Demonology, Torbjorn, and Symmetra) still revolve around heavy turret-based gameplay.

Also many of you aren't listening; No one is suggesting that the turret is the only thing doing the damage.

[arkanon]

Yeah, and yet all of those examples (Gazlowe, Demonology, Torbjorn, and Symmetra) still revolve around heavy turret-based gameplay.

Also many of you aren't listening; No one is suggesting that the turret is the only thing doing the damage.

hey could make 100% of the dmg come from the turret.

You keep saying that...........

[Imperator4321]

Really? According to Wowhead, that's pretty much the rotation;

Pre-cast Demon Bolt
Hand of Guldan
Call Dreadstalkers
Build to three Soul Shards w/ Shadowbolt (or Demonbolt if Demonic core is active)
Hand of Guldan
Build to three Soul Shards w/ Shadowbolt (or demonbolt if demonic core is active)
Hand of Guldan
Demonic Tyrant

https://www.wowhead.com/demonology-w...rotation-guide

You're constantly using Hand of Guldan to build up those wild imps, which as demonstrated in this thread do a significant portion of your damage.

That's the rotation with absolutely no talents that add extra abilities since you cited Gazlowes talents as examples of his "turret centric gameplay" i'm free to cite, Doom, Power Siphon, Bilescourge Bombers, Demonic Strength, Soul Strike, Vilefiend, Felguard as examples of Demonology's gameplay not being centered around Hand of Gul'dan.

Yeah, as shown Gazlowe and Demonology are still heavily turret based. Torbjorn got reworked because his only real ability was dropping armor and building the turret. In addition, he had to stand over the location to drop the turret, and practically babysit it to build it to level 2. In the new version of Torb he can place his turret more effectively, it instantly jumps to level 2, it builds faster, and he has more abilities beyond dropping armor packs that almost no one grabbed. However, the point is that Blizzard didn't alter the fact that the core of his gameplay still revolves around his turret, they made his turret-based gameplay more well-rounded and enjoyable. Further the REASON people play Torbjorn is because of his turret-based gameplay.

No they didn't, they de-emphasized the turrets as the central element of their kit by buffing the rest and nerfing the turrets and gave them a more general role than just "turret based zoner", Torbjorns weapon was made more functional, overload gives him enhanced fighting for a time, molten core is area denial/anti armor the Turret is there to support his general gameplay not be it, Symmetra has a defensive utility based playstyle, she gives more mobility with her teleporter, blocks ults/sightlines with her ult, her turrets slow and can be used to block flanks once again the turrets are there to support the rest of her kit not be her kit.

Gazlowes turrets had their damage cut in half and everything else about his kit buffed because his turret damage was so high the rest of his kit had to be as unwieldy (long delays) and underwhelming to compensate, this pivoted him into a sieger/zoner/merc camp role because any competent player would know to just kill his turrets or avoid his dead zones he created, he was reworked so the rest of his kit was actually functional and his turrets now support either a sieger/duelist playstyle (with robo-goblin) or a teamfight oriented playstyle with grav bomb, his turrets exist to support either playstyle wheras before his playstyle was "zone with turrets" the rest of his kit was practically non-existent because it had to be underpowered because his turrets were too strong which created a polarizing gameplay style.

All of these characters/classes, before their reworks had playstyles that overemphasised their respective turrets, this is why their reworks de-emphasised the turrets while making other parts stronger.

In fact in none of the examples you mentioned was the turret based gameplay removed. All that happened was that it was more balanced out and not so heavily reliant on turret-only gameplay. Just to note, I'm also not suggesting that a Tinker RDPS spec should only have turret abilities.

Yeah, NO ONE is suggesting that the turret would be the only thing doing the damage. That was the issue with Gazlowe, Torbjorn, and Legion-demonology, but all of those were fixed to provide a more balanced gameplay experience that still heavily revolves around turret play.

Why is my rotation & resource centered around turret upgrading, if upgrading turrets isn't providing me with the most damage? the issue comes down to balancing the turrets vs everything else, if the turrets and their upgrades are my spenders then my builders (i.e everything else) would be weaker, same way Gazlowes turrets were the strongest part of his kit which made everything else weaker, but this created the numerous gameplay issues I have outlined and is why Gazlowe (along with Torbjorn and Legion Demonology) were reworked.

The turrets cannot be both the main resource spenders AND not the primary way the class/spec deals damage

And again, all of those instances you mentioned STILL revolve around turret-based gameplay. You also forgot to mention Symmetra in OW who is also based on heavy turret-style gameplay.

ONCE AGAIN the turrets weren't removed but they stopped being the focus, Torbjorns turret is there to support his zoner/area denial playstyle (which is also provided by his ult & brief periods of improved fighting ability via overload), Symmetra's turrets are there to provide her with defensive utility (once again also provided by her teleporter and ult) Gazlowes are there to support his multiple playstyles but they aren't the focus, Demonology's wild imps are there to provide bodies for Demonic Tyrant and generate demonic core (or be used in AOE with imposion).

The turrets are a part of their playstyle but they aren't the only part of their playstyle

[Teriz]

That's the rotation with absolutely no talents that add extra abilities since you cited Gazlowes talents as examples of his "turret centric gameplay" i'm free to cite, Doom, Power Siphon, Bilescourge Bombers, Demonic Strength, Soul Strike, Vilefiend, Felguard as examples of Demonology's gameplay not being centered around Hand of Gul'dan.

But the gameplay of Demonology IS centered around Hand of Gul'dan. Wild Imps make up a significant portion of Demonology's DPS, and you get those imps via Hand of Gul'dan. You're building soul shards in order to spawn as many imps as possible. None of those talents really match that, much less replace it.

No they didn't, they de-emphasized the turrets as the central element of their kit by buffing the rest and nerfing the turrets and gave them a more general role than just "turret based zoner", Torbjorns weapon was made more functional, overload gives him enhanced fighting for a time, molten core is area denial/anti armor the Turret is there to support his general gameplay not be it, Symmetra has a defensive utility based playstyle, she gives more mobility with her teleporter, blocks ults/sightlines with her ult, her turrets slow and can be used to block flanks once again the turrets are there to support the rest of her kit not be her kit.

I certainly hope you're kidding. Torbjorn's turret is STILL the center piece of his DPS. You simply can't play a competitive Torb if you don't know how to place your turret properly. in fact, the turret is so vital to Torb's gameplay that it's recommended that you stay in the backline so that your turret has free reign to take out targets with you backing it up with your rivet gun. In addition, certain maps are either optimal or sub optimal to Torb based on the favorability of where he can set up his turret.

The same applies to Symmetra. How do you think she accomplishes a defensive utility playstyle? Simple, it's through her turrets. She can set up turrets over entranceways, choke points, on payloads, around corners, etc. Yeah, her turrets slow, and they also deal considerable damage if they aren't dealt with. Now is it the be all end all of her kit? No. And no one argued that it was. My point was that it's a considerable portion of her kit, and it is an example of successfully done turret based game play, just like Torbjorn.

Gazlowes turrets had their damage cut in half and everything else about his kit buffed because his turret damage was so high the rest of his kit had to be as unwieldy (long delays) and underwhelming to compensate, this pivoted him into a sieger/zoner/merc camp role because any competent player would know to just kill his turrets or avoid his dead zones he created, he was reworked so the rest of his kit was actually functional and his turrets now support either a sieger/duelist playstyle (with robo-goblin) or a teamfight oriented playstyle with grav bomb, his turrets exist to support either playstyle wheras before his playstyle was "zone with turrets" the rest of his kit was practically non-existent because it had to be underpowered because his turrets were too strong which created a polarizing gameplay style.

All of these characters/classes, before their reworks had playstyles that overemphasised their respective turrets, this is why their reworks de-emphasised the turrets while making other parts stronger.

How can you argue that they de-emphasized turrets when Gazlowe for example has more turret-based talents than talents for other abilities?

Why is my rotation & resource centered around turret upgrading, if upgrading turrets isn't providing me with the most damage?

Please point out where I ever said the rotation or resource would be centered around turret upgrading.

The turrets are a part of their playstyle but they aren't the only part of their playstyle

Also please point out where I said that turrets were the ONLY part of their playstyle.

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You keep saying that...........

And you keep taking that quote out of context.....

[Imperator4321]

But the gameplay of Demonology IS centered around Hand of Gul'dan. Wild Imps make up a significant portion of Demonology's DPS, and you get those imps via Hand of Gul'dan. You're building soul shards in order to spawn as many imps as possible. None of those talents really match that, much less replace it.

Vilefiend and Felguard are absolutely as valuable as a 3 shard hand of gul'dan, they add significant value to demonic tyrant (with demonic consumption) because it scale on health drained, Bilescourge Bombers has huge value in AOE.

I certainly hope you're kidding. Torbjorn's turret is STILL the center piece of his DPS. You simply can't play a competitive Torb if you don't know how to place your turret properly. in fact, the turret is so vital to Torb's gameplay that it's recommended that you stay in the backline so that your turret has free reign to take out targets with you backing it up with your rivet gun. In addition, certain maps are either optimal or sub optimal to Torb based on the favorability of where he can set up his turret.

The same applies to Symmetra. How do you think she accomplishes a defensive utility playstyle? Simple, it's through her turrets. She can set up turrets over entranceways, choke points, on payloads, around corners, etc. Yeah, her turrets slow, and they also deal considerable damage if they aren't dealt with. Now is it the be all end all of her kit? No. And no one argued that it was. My point was that it's a considerable portion of her kit, and it is an example of successfully done turret based game play, just like Torbjorn.

You are fixating on singular abilities are proclaiming it to be the only thing that matters, knowing how to position Torbjorns turret is an essential skill, but so is knowing how his primary fires arc works, how his secondary fire works, when to use overload to turn a fight, how to use his ult for area denial, same with Symmetra knowing where to place her turrets is one of her skills, but so is aiming primary and secondary fire, how to use her teleporter, how to use her ult effectively, these skills are just as valuable, especially post-rework because the their turrets power was de-emphasized in favor of making the entire kit functional instead of a singular turret based niche.

THIS IS WHY THEY WERE REWORKED, Torbjorn's "power budget" was entirely put into his turret and his ult, this was unbalanced on a fundamental level which is why he needed a rework instead of simply changing numbers on his turret damage or health, his new design allows for more skill expression than just turret placement, same with Symmetra who was a mess of a design who didn't even fit the role she was supposedly classed as and her gameplay made her literally only good on 1st point defense.

This type of fixation on a singular ability is how you get badly designed or unbalanced characters like Torbjorn or Gazlowe who needed reworks, Gazlowes "power budget" was entirely invested in his turrets, thats why they spread his power to other abilities in his rework, while decreasing his turrets early game power in favor of talents that made it synergize with the use of other abilities.

[TheRevenantHero]

Check his talents. The majority are turret based.



Which doesn’t change the fact that he’s still a turret based hero. They balanced the kit out, but that’s still what he is.

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Uh, the last three expansion heroes were based on either WC3, HotS, or both. It stands to reason that the next one will as well. In BFA, Blizzard introduced an Island Expedition team that had Gazlowe’s HotS abilities. Demon Hunters got Illidan’s HotS ability The Hunt in Shadowlands. So, despite HotS floundering popularity-wise, they’re still pulling abilities from HotS.

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Yeah, it’s no different than Monks “brewing” drinks by using chi. Lore wise they’re mixing drinks and putting it in bottles. Gameplay wise, they’re just generating ability charges.




And where did I say that directly?



Rock-it turret, and all of its talents and passives were created by Blizzard.

So basically you're saying lore only matters when it fits your narrative but then stop mattering when someone uses lore to disprove your concepts.

"Well for starters they're devices that are constantly destroyed and leave scrap and parts behind that can be used to build more turrets and devices. There's more, but yeah it's not the same thing." is what you said back on page 8. Which is an utterly ridiculous idea.

Rock-it turret is a stationary thing that does a small amount of damage and functions EXACTLY like searing totem. There are no passives or talents for it in WoW so you are once again lying by saying Blizzard gave it talents and passives in game.

[Thuunda]

No. they sucked because players want to focus on their character and not a side mini-game for DPS. Same reason hunters don't need to feed their pets anymore.

This is one opinion. but dont speak for players, youre speaking for yourself. I miss the hell outta my totems. hunters have the ability to have not one, but TWO pets. and dont try the argument that people play marks because they dislike pets. they play marks because it does better. if BM performed better lots more would roll BM two pets and all. everyone has a prefference. but totems, turrets, pets all sound like a blast to me. bring on the "mini game"

[Teriz]

Vilefiend and Felguard are absolutely as valuable as a 3 shard hand of gul'dan, they add significant value to demonic tyrant (with demonic consumption) because it scale on health drained, Bilescourge Bombers has huge value in AOE.

Those are valuable talents, but they’re not the core rotation of the spec, which is what you’ve been talking about (I.e. “Turret based gameplay is never a core part of a rotation).

You are fixating on singular abilities are proclaiming it to be the only thing that matters, knowing how to position Torbjorns turret is an essential skill, but so is knowing how his primary fires arc works, how his secondary fire works, when to use overload to turn a fight, how to use his ult for area denial, same with Symmetra knowing where to place her turrets is one of her skills, but so is aiming primary and secondary fire, how to use her teleporter, how to use her ult effectively, these skills are just as valuable, especially post-rework because the their turrets power was de-emphasized in favor of making the entire kit functional instead of a singular turret based niche.

Again, you’re confusing balancing out their kit with a deemphasis on turret use. The first part happened, the second part didn’t. If you’re playing either one of those heroes 9/10 the majority of your damage is coming from turrets. Symmetry’s is NOT on the front line trying to hit someone with her beam weapon. Symmetry is in the back line letting her turrets deal their damage to incoming attackers.

THIS IS WHY THEY WERE REWORKED, Torbjorn's "power budget" was entirely put into his turret and his ult, this was unbalanced on a fundamental level which is why he needed a rework instead of simply changing numbers on his turret damage or health, his new design allows for more skill expression than just turret placement, same with Symmetra who was a mess of a design who didn't even fit the role she was supposedly classed as and her gameplay made her literally only good on 1st point defense.

And again you’re misinterpreting why they were reworked. They weren’t reworked because turret play in of itself sucks, they were reworked because their original design was cumbersome and difficult to be effective with. Their current iterations are STILL turret based, Blizzard just made their kits more interesting and FAR easier for them to set up their turrets. This is especially the case with Symmetra.

This type of fixation on a singular ability is how you get badly designed or unbalanced characters like Torbjorn or Gazlowe who needed reworks, Gazlowes "power budget" was entirely invested in his turrets, thats why they spread his power to other abilities in his rework, while decreasing his turrets early game power in favor of talents that made it synergize with the use of other abilities.

See above. I’m not disagreeing with you that their kits weren’t changed to balance things out. My contention with you is your notion that those characters are no longer using turret based gameplay. If the majority of your damage is coming from turrets, then yes you are playing a turret based character. No one is saying ALL of their damage is coming from turrets, and that the only thing a Torbjorb, Symettra, or Gazlowe player is doing is setting up turrets and nothing else.

Here’s the point; Gazlowe, Symm, and Torb prove that Blizzard has no issue creating characters that use primarily turret abilities. In the case of WoW, if Blizzard based the Tinker on Gazlowe’s HotS kit, turrets will more than likely be the centerpiece of the DPS specialization.

[jellmoo]

This is one opinion. but dont speak for players, youre speaking for yourself. I miss the hell outta my totems. hunters have the ability to have not one, but TWO pets. and dont try the argument that people play marks because they dislike pets. they play marks because it does better. if BM performed better lots more would roll BM two pets and all. everyone has a prefference. but totems, turrets, pets all sound like a blast to me. bring on the "mini game"

Um... There most certainly are people that play MM because they don't like pets.

[glowpipe]

You keep saying that...........

can you stop spamming my inbox now? Thanks

[Teriz]

So basically you're saying lore only matters when it fits your narrative but then stop mattering when someone uses lore to disprove your concepts.

"Well for starters they're devices that are constantly destroyed and leave scrap and parts behind that can be used to build more turrets and devices. There's more, but yeah it's not the same thing." is what you said back on page 8. Which is an utterly ridiculous idea.

Rock-it turret is a stationary thing that does a small amount of damage and functions EXACTLY like searing totem. There are no passives or talents for it in WoW so you are once again lying by saying Blizzard gave it talents and passives in game.

No, I’m saying that gameplay wise an ability is doing mundane stuff, but the lore behind the ability adds substance and flavor. Hence why Brewing Tigerseye Brew gives you the sense that your Monk is brewing drinks while doing back flips, but gameplay wise you’re just generating buff charges while using your resources.

Also Rock it turret has 2 charges, a 15 second duration, and a 10 second recharge time for new charges. You can summon 2 or more rock-It turrets at a time.

You could never do that with searing totem.

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Um... There most certainly are people that play MM because they don't like pets.

Beast mastery is the most popular Hunter spec though.

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Which is great for you.

But it's not great for the players who have to deal with that kind of gameplay. Dropping a turret and pillar humping in circles because your turret does most of your damage is not acceptable gameplay. It wasn't acceptable gameplay when a BM hunter's pet did more damage than the BM hunter itself because the hunter could just - unsurprisingly - Let the pet do all the work while they just played entirely defense. Even if the enemy player killed the pet, the BM hunter could revive it and keep defending.

What's good for you =/= Good for the game. You like that kind of gameplay because it makes you feel powerful. But it isn't fun to play against, so it's not going to happen.

Yeah, and no one is talking about instituting that type of turret play into the game.

It’s almost as if some people focus on the worst aspects of turret-style gameplay and completely ignore Blizzard’s recent improvements in the concept as seen in all of their games.

[jellmoo]

Beast mastery is the most popular Hunter spec though.

Not arguing that at all, just mentioning that there most definitely are people that enjoy a ranged physical playstyle without a pet, which the person I quoted seemed to dismiss as a possibility.

[Teriz]

Not arguing that at all, just mentioning that there most definitely are people that enjoy a ranged physical playstyle without a pet, which the person I quoted seemed to dismiss as a possibility.

True, but Beast Mastery's popularity also shows that there are a lot of players who have no issue with pets/summons doing a significant portion of their damage.

[Ielenia]

So yeah, not just a skin. In addition, given the fact that they are mechanical thematically opens up different gameplay options.

In the end, it will be just a skin, though. Because I doubt those things you mentioned (immunity to life drain, bleeds) would be implemented as those would put certain classes at a disadvantage. Not to mention certain attributes are negated for player pets. Like hunter mechanic pets can still take bleed damage. At least I think they can, I haven't played my hunter since mid-Legion.

[jellmoo]

True, but Beast Mastery's popularity also shows that there are a lot of players who have no issue with pets/summons doing a significant portion of their damage.

Yup, not arguing that at all. BM is super popular for a lot of reasons, one of which is that a lot of people like the pet playstyle. Though I would say that it's possible that the simplicity of the spec is the larger reason for the popularity given the relative unpopularity of Demo.

That being said, I think having options to go petless as shown in MM, Frost and (admittedly poorly done) with Locks is a good thing that allows more people to fulfill their respective class fantasies.

[Ielenia]

The WC3 and HotS heroes it's based on, since all of their abilities were ranged.

Their auto-attacks are melee, heavily indicating it would be a melee class with some ranged abilities, like the paladin and death knight.

It makes the most sense.

Because....? You can't just say "it makes sense" without explaining why it makes sense and expect people to just buy that.

[Teriz]

In the end, it will be just a skin, though. Because I doubt those things you mentioned (immunity to life drain, bleeds) would be implemented as those would put certain classes at a disadvantage. Not to mention certain attributes are negated for player pets. Like hunter mechanic pets can still take bleed damage. At least I think they can, I haven't played my hunter since mid-Legion.

No it wouldn't. A turret with a 15 second duration not being able to bleed wouldn't alter balance in any way whatsoever.

Also Hunter "mechanical" pets are truly just skins. A Tinker's mechanical devices would actually be mechanical devices.

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Their auto-attacks are melee, heavily indicating it would be a melee class with some ranged abilities, like the paladin and death knight.

The Orc Shaman, Farseer, Shadow Hunter, Witch Doctor, and Spirtwalker's auto attacks were all ranged, thus the Shaman class should be a ranged class.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/enhanc...-pve-dps-guide

Oh wait....

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Yup, not arguing that at all. BM is super popular for a lot of reasons, one of which is that a lot of people like the pet playstyle. Though I would say that it's possible that the simplicity of the spec is the larger reason for the popularity given the relative unpopularity of Demo.

That being said, I think having options to go petless as shown in MM, Frost and (admittedly poorly done) with Locks is a good thing that allows more people to fulfill their respective class fantasies.

Oh definitely. Beast Mastery allows you to get two beasts at once, which allows you to pretty much go to sleep while you level, because nothing's going to kill you.

[Ielenia]

No it wouldn't. A turret with a 15 second duration not being able to bleed wouldn't alter balance in any way whatsoever.

So are the turrets weak that they die to a single hit like totems? Or do they deal pitiful damage so that the other players don't have to really worry about them in PvP? Or both? You mention they are mobile, so that is a big advantage because they cannot be feared and will jsut continue shooting.

Also Hunter "mechanical" pets are truly just skins. A Tinker's mechanical devices would actually be mechanical devices.

And the hunter mechanical pets are also "actual mechanical devices" too. You're making a special pleading, here.

The Orc Shaman, Farseer, Shadow Hunter, Witch Doctor, and Spirtwalker's auto attacks were all ranged, thus the Shaman class should be a ranged class.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/enhanc...-pve-dps-guide

Oh wait....

Except you're talking about making the tinker into a ranged class, not ranged spec. There is a difference. And as I pointed out in a different discussion, the shaman (and, to some extent, the hunter) are more the exception than the rule.

[Teriz]

So are the turrets weak that they die to a single hit like totems? Or do they deal pitiful damage so that the other players don't have to really worry about them in PvP? Or both? You mention they are mobile, so that is a big advantage because they cannot be feared and will jsut continue shooting.

Who knows. That would be a decision up to Blizzard. The turrets in HotS take a few hits to kill, and in the old Gazlowe build they could be armored and be tougher to kill.

It's also important to note that Warlock Wild Imps (which is closer to this concept than Totems)e aren't targetable at all, and you can't kill them. The only way you remove them is by killing the Warlock

And the hunter mechanical pets are also "actual mechanical devices" too. You're making a special pleading, here.

They're susceptible to Scare Beast and Hibernate, and as you mention they suffer from bleed effects so no, they're not actually mechanicals. It's just a skin.

Except you're talking about making the tinker into a ranged class, not ranged spec. There is a difference. And as I pointed out in a different discussion, the shaman (and, to some extent, the hunter) are more the exception than the rule.

Incorrect. The Tank spec would obviously be melee and based on Robo Goblin, which makes sense as it increases armor and melee power in both WC3 and HotS. The healing spec could also be melee just like the Mistweaver spec. The only ranged Tinker spec would be the DPS one.

So while Shaman had one melee spec despite being entirely ranged in WC3, the Tinker would have one ranged spec despite having a melee auto attack in WC3.