how to fix the catch 22's of this game?

[Otimus]

You should quit and play a game that actually respects your time instead of one that actively tries to prevent you from playing it.

Absolutely this.

But also, the real answer would just be designing a wider array of content that's worth doing and not having almost everything of value that lasts more than a hot minute be just raiding in heroic and up and dungeons in mythic+. That's been the core problem of things since after MoP. There's nothing to really do if you're not in an active guild or already doing higher end content after a week or so. Unless you play, like, an hour a week or something. No one gets any real grind now except those people, which is frankly just kind of weird in an MMORPG.

[Hablion]

There are no ways to fix these things sadly.

[BeepBoo]

how you you fix these catch 22s on a GAME wide basis

Stop thinking you can code out "problems" with human psychology. You can't. Ways to solve this are

1) make the game a single player game - dumb
2) make the game entirely faceroll - dumb

I'm sure there are more ideas I could think of, but they all have drawbacks that I think are dumb and drastically alter the game. You cannot keep the game's content like it is and somehow magically alter the psychology behind it such that you can get the things you're after. No game that requires cooperation and competence ALIVE has accomplished what you're asking.

There are no ways to fix these things sadly.

Why is it even sad, though? it's just how humans are. We KNOW it's valuable to be good at things. In the case of wow, it's because when your teammates are good at things it increases your chance for success, reduces time investment, etc. It's amazing to me when humans are actually allowed to necessitate increasingly harder-to-meet standards to earn their help.

[This One Time At Bandcamp]

If you could chose what key you wanted, it would be too easy to target and spam dungeons for gear for top players.
Would make gearing 8 times faster, because you don't need to do 8 dungeons.

[Azerate]

im taking about needed curve for normal and hc and also 1 that really annoys me min 1300 rio to do 15s when currently its impossible to get that even if you manage to time all 15s.

how do you fix this? i lack 2 timed 15s to get ksm and the game stopped giving me keys that i need to get this achievement, how should these catch 22s be fixed// dint bother saying make your own grp till you get something useful as when you only have 2 dungeons left its near impossible to get a key you need.

an the other one needed arena rating to do rbgs and arena.....

how you you fix these catch 22s on a GAME wide basis

The fixes are the following:

1. Try long enough until someone accepts you without the achievement/overblown RIO. This is hard sure, but it does happen. If you want it hard enough, you'll try and try and eventually get in and succeed. I pugged a lot m+ recently with some mates, and was both on the recruiting and receiving end. We took people as low as 1080 to a 15. 1300 rio people are pretty rare in general.

2. Find a friend (or friends) to run with you. Just one other person who is healer/tank should be enough to open 90% of groups for you, provided they are at somewhat decent RIO and/or have the required raid exp.

3. Push your own key - I realize that's the lazy answer and I'd say it's the hardest solution out of the ones I list but it is possible. For m+ it doesn't really matter that much if you're a sole DPS listing a group for a key. People will join. It might take 10-20 minutes, but they will. Sometimes you get groups/duos/trios looking for a specific key for whatever reason as well. If you have your own key - no one can decline you from it. Still, you need to have at least serviceable RIO score of course, but you should get by with something decent for the key range.

Thing is these are player driven groups in all of these cases, so you can't have a magic fix that will just magically make people invite you. You have to either show some perseverance, or find a friend who can improve your chances.

farm/buy millions of gold for boosts

That seems to be the primary way these days with how many bad players I get in pugs

No it's not. The average player could barely afford their rank 4 leggo shortly after launch. The idea that everyone buys boosts en-masse is a myth.

Should be noted that this week and the next few are likely going to be extraordinarily rancid to push key goals (like keystone master for example) in pugging if you don't at least have a couple friends to run with. The new upgrade system has everyone that really has no business being in a 15 desperately trying to get there for the love of item level. So toxicity and the downs will be at an all time high whereas before this system most of this fell off around 10s. Now here in a few weeks a lot of this desperation will go away as they slide credit cards and sling millions of gold for boosts but you still got some true believers out there.

People who usually hover around +10s will never get invited to 15s unless by accident or some incredible luck, so I doubt this will be an issue. There's a universe of difference between those key ranges and there's a collosal different in the score as well.

I mean its the easiest solution to a problem that the community has created. The community dictates that this is one of the two ways to play this game. The other one being to organize your own group with fixed members, but that is much, much more effort.

It's only a solution if you are only interested in the reward and don't care about the progression itself. And clearly many of us care about the journey/progress as well.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The average player could barely afford their rPeople who usually hover around +10s will never get invited to 15s unless by accident or some incredible luck, so I doubt this will be an issue. There's a universe of difference between those key ranges and there's a collosal different in the score as well.

At least now I know your just a blow hard because that is a big no shit. Unfortunately it's about the numbers inbetween smart guy. But I understand you probably are rarely below keys of 69 and 420.

[tikcol]

im taking about needed curve for normal and hc and also 1 that really annoys me min 1300 rio to do 15s when currently its impossible to get that even if you manage to time all 15s.

how do you fix this? i lack 2 timed 15s to get ksm and the game stopped giving me keys that i need to get this achievement, how should these catch 22s be fixed// dint bother saying make your own grp till you get something useful as when you only have 2 dungeons left its near impossible to get a key you need.

an the other one needed arena rating to do rbgs and arena.....

how you you fix these catch 22s on a GAME wide basis

I started pugging 15s as a mage with 950 rio score 3 weeks after reaching level 60

Stop crying about non issues

[Jervaise]

i see reading isn't your strong point try again

I have 1900 Rio as shadow with ONLY my keys. Never invited to a dungeon apart from a couple keys I did helping friends.

My key. Only.

I got upto 1800 2v2 and 1700 3v3 making MY groups only.

Do it. It's doable. It's even better.

[Advent]

It might take 10-20 minutes, but they will.

Just wanted to address this specifically, since my experience was wildly different. Often the runs I listed under my own key took upwards of 2 hours to fill. Whether the run went well or not, nobody was particularly receptive to being "friends" after the run was over, especially tanks and healers. It's one of the reasons I just gave up and left.

[ellieg]

its quite simple fix

game needs to be much eaiser

just like it was in vanilla-wolk.

wow was popular when it was easy fun game

wow is garbage when its game designed only for mythic raiders.

50% of sub losses in first 2 months proves this.

it means they lost not only people who come back to game to give it chance but even people who played through whole Legion and BfA.

by june they will loose 80 % of players

why ? because there is literaly nothing to do in game for casual playerbase

The game is jist as easy as it ever was, but there's also hard content too. Why aren't you playing classic? That's why its there.

What casual content did you do in vanilla-wotlk? There's normal and heroic dungeons. They have covenant campaigns. World quests, campaign quests, and side quests. What specific content are you looking for?

[Azerate]

Just wanted to address this specifically, since my experience was wildly different. Often the runs I listed under my own key took upwards of 2 hours to fill. Whether the run went well or not, nobody was particularly receptive to being "friends" after the run was over, especially tanks and healers. It's one of the reasons I just gave up and left.

You might get less or more lucky for sure, it may also depend on how fotm or meta your class/spec is considered to be. And of course, most of all, it matters whether your score actually shows you are doing keys at least close to that level. If you list a 14, and your highest timed otherwise is a 12, then yeah, it might be very hard. Of course I don't know if that was the case for you, just saying.

[Accendor]

The fixes are the following:

1. Try long enough until someone accepts you without the achievement/overblown RIO. This is hard sure, but it does happen. If you want it hard enough, you'll try and try and eventually get in and succeed. I pugged a lot m+ recently with some mates, and was both on the recruiting and receiving end. We took people as low as 1080 to a 15. 1300 rio people are pretty rare in general.

2. Find a friend (or friends) to run with you. Just one other person who is healer/tank should be enough to open 90% of groups for you, provided they are at somewhat decent RIO and/or have the required raid exp.

3. Push your own key - I realize that's the lazy answer and I'd say it's the hardest solution out of the ones I list but it is possible. For m+ it doesn't really matter that much if you're a sole DPS listing a group for a key. People will join. It might take 10-20 minutes, but they will. Sometimes you get groups/duos/trios looking for a specific key for whatever reason as well. If you have your own key - no one can decline you from it. Still, you need to have at least serviceable RIO score of course, but you should get by with something decent for the key range.

Thing is these are player driven groups in all of these cases, so you can't have a magic fix that will just magically make people invite you. You have to either show some perseverance, or find a friend who can improve your chances.



No it's not. The average player could barely afford their rank 4 leggo shortly after launch. The idea that everyone buys boosts en-masse is a myth.



People who usually hover around +10s will never get invited to 15s unless by accident or some incredible luck, so I doubt this will be an issue. There's a universe of difference between those key ranges and there's a collosal different in the score as well.



It's only a solution if you are only interested in the reward and don't care about the progression itself. And clearly many of us care about the journey/progress as well.

Well, you can still do the Dungeons after you got the achievement boosted to prove to yourself that you can do it.

- - - Updated - - -

I do it without fixed members tho. Theres a 3rd option if u try

So here is the thing: you are right of course, but the time requirement is insane of you are not a healer or, even better, a tank. Reaching the +10 mark is fair enough, but starting from them it gets very, very hard. Even as FOTM class you will habe to outgear the content that you are doing now to even get invited and even then its around 15-30 minutes before you actually get an invite.
If its tyrannical week, expect that 3/4 of your groups simply will not finish the run at all. Timing a run now will be very rare.
In Fortified weeks finishing keys is much easier, is actually rate that the group disbands before finishing. Timing on the other hand is hard, maybe 1 out of 8.
Going from 14 to 15 however is extremely hard. Ofc you will get an invite someday, but better plan a few days where all you do is apply to groups for 2 hours and log off.

Don't start me with "build your own group", you are a DD, no tank or heal of going to join your ToP+11 key.

- - - Updated - - -

I do it without fixed members tho. Theres a 3rd option if u try

So here is the thing: you are right of course, but the time requirement is insane if you are not a healer or, even better, a tank. Reaching the +10 mark is fair enough, but starting from there it gets very, very hard. Even as a FOTM class you will habe to outgear the content that you are doing now to even get invited and even then its around 15-30 minutes before you actually get an invite.
If its tyrannical week, expect that 3/4 of your groups simply will not finish the run at all. Timing a run now will be very rare.
In Fortified weeks finishing keys is much easier, is actually rate that the group disbands before finishing. Timing on the other hand is hard, maybe 1 out of 8.
Going from 14 to 15 however is extremely hard. Ofc you will get an invite someday, but better plan a few days where all you do is apply to groups for 2 hours and log off.

Don't start me with "build your own group", you are a DD, no tank or heal of going to join your ToP+11 key.

[ellieg]

Well, you can still do the Dungeons after you got the achievement boosted to prove to yourself that you can do it.

- - - Updated - - -



So here is the thing: you are right of course, but the time requirement is insane of you are not a healer or, even better, a tank. Reaching the +10 mark is fair enough, but starting from them it gets very, very hard. Even as FOTM class you will habe to outgear the content that you are doing now to even get invited and even then its around 15-30 minutes before you actually get an invite.
If its tyrannical week, expect that 3/4 of your groups simply will not finish the run at all. Timing a run now will be very rare.
In Fortified weeks finishing keys is much easier, is actually rate that the group disbands before finishing. Timing on the other hand is hard, maybe 1 out of 8.
Going from 14 to 15 however is extremely hard. Ofc you will get an invite someday, but better plan a few days where all you do is apply to groups for 2 hours and log off.

Don't start me with "build your own group", you are a DD, no tank or heal of going to join your ToP+11 key.

- - - Updated - - -



So here is the thing: you are right of course, but the time requirement is insane if you are not a healer or, even better, a tank. Reaching the +10 mark is fair enough, but starting from there it gets very, very hard. Even as a FOTM class you will habe to outgear the content that you are doing now to even get invited and even then its around 15-30 minutes before you actually get an invite.
If its tyrannical week, expect that 3/4 of your groups simply will not finish the run at all. Timing a run now will be very rare.
In Fortified weeks finishing keys is much easier, is actually rate that the group disbands before finishing. Timing on the other hand is hard, maybe 1 out of 8.
Going from 14 to 15 however is extremely hard. Ofc you will get an invite someday, but better plan a few days where all you do is apply to groups for 2 hours and log off.

Don't start me with "build your own group", you are a DD, no tank or heal of going to join your ToP+11 key.

I'm an alliance frost dk. If I can do it you can too. Sometimes takes a while to get ppl to join your group but it will happen.

[munkeyinorbit]

i see reading isn't your strong point try again

Find some friends. Make your own group. Problem super solved.

[Ssateneth]

its not a game problem. its a social problem. maybe make some FRIENDS that will want to take you because you work well with them and mesh good instead of only playing with randoms that have no idea how you play and have to assume the worst (i dont know this guy, he probably got carried and he is not running fotm, invite the other guy with 300 more io and fotm)

[Nnyco]

Find friends to play with instead of relying on shit pugs.

[Accendor]

I'm an alliance frost dk. If I can do it you can too. Sometimes takes a while to get ppl to join your group but it will happen.

"A bit" = 15 hours?

[Advent]

Find friends to play with instead of relying on shit pugs.

If that was a possibility for them, they probably wouldn't be here. O_o

[cface]

"A bit" = 15 hours?

Im alliance too, a bit = 15 min depending on dungeon and key level. If its a 15, you're spammed even as alliance. Only rarely do I have to wait 15min to create a group in the 12-15 range, and we create group as dps, so need healer/tank

[ellieg]

"A bit" = 15 hours?

Maybe 30 mins max. What time of day are you playing? That could factor into it