[TV] WandaVision

[Jester Joe]

She's objectively done less evil to fewer people in Wandavision than Wanda has. Wanda was essentially torturing thousands of people, for weeks, and got to walk away because "how the fuck could we even try and stop her?", not because anyone agreed she was in the right.

Agatha, meanwhile, killed her coven in self-defense when they tried to kill her, and killed a dog that maybe didn't actually even exist, and tortured two physical illusions that had the shape of children, mostly to pressure their "mom" into doing what Agatha thought was the right thing.

Agatha was very clear that she saw Wanda as basically a toddler with a loaded gun. And her entire arc in the show is trying to get that toddler to give her the gun before someone gets hurt any worse than they already are. Even to trying to wrestle the gun out of the toddler's hands.

If you pay attention, once she reveals herself, almost everything Agatha says and does is about healing Wanda. She may have a pretty harsh bedside manner, but she walks Wanda through her grief and gets her to see how dangerous she is and how badly she's hurting everyone. Without Agatha, who knows how long Wanda would have kept the Hex up, hurting those people more and more in the process? The final air battle is essentially Agatha's last ditch effort, after trying to talk Wanda down has seemingly failed. She even took her time about taking Wanda's magic, to give Wanda time to change her mind; the first bit she absorbed was down in the streets, remember.

If we hadn't been following Wanda's perspective the entire show, Wanda would be the villain, who gets away with everything, and Agatha was the tragic hero who lost everything in saving the day.

I'm a bit confused where you're getting this.

Wanda literally says "See the difference between us is you did this on purpose" and Agatha kinda just shrugs it off. It's pretty heavily implied in my opinion that she knew fully well if she was caught she'd be able to drain the power away for her own use. Maybe she didn't want to do it to her own mother (unless that was just like, the coven's mother, I dunno), but she showed little remorse after even.

Wanda on the other hand, was all unintentional. Was it horrible still, yes. But she didn't do it for the sake of being a villain, she had no idea how she did it in the first place, much less how to undo it.


And past that, Agatha was just assaulting her mental state. It wasn't about healing Wanda, it was about figuring out what Wanda was. That's all Agatha wanted to know, she didn't care to "heal" her. It was constant mental assaults to basically manipulate Wanda into giving up her power for Agatha's own desire. She wanted to mentally break Wanda so she'd be vulnerable.


And as far as it's been shown, it wasn't about taking her time to take Wanda's magic, it was about that she has to drain it while it's being casted at her. So she couldn't do anything but wait for Wanda to do that, keep in mind every time Agatha drained someone's magic it was only after they casted it at her.

I mean, she had no issue using the same kind of magic that Wanda did to control someone. Nowhere was it implied that Agatha wanted the magic for any good reason, just that she saw that Wanda has a hell of a lot more magic power than she does.

[Jester Joe]

You need to watch the scene again because you clearly missed a lot of it.

Again, Wanda calls out Agatha on it saying "You did this on purpose" and Agatha basically just shrugs it off, not denying it.

[Jester Joe]

We didn’t see much of the after when she killed the coven, but she genuinely seemed to want to stop them from even trying to kill her as she pleaded that she couldn’t control her power and asking them to teach her how to. Then they began killing her before she started draining the coven. She still seemed somewhat surprised by the fact that she reversed the magic and began draining them. I wouldn’t be shocked if, much like Wanda, the Darkhold was influencing her. We’ll learn more in a year though.

And as we've seen through the entire events of WandaVision, Agatha is an actress who will fit any part to get what she wants. Again, she showed little remorse about the events, and even went to continue to target people to drain calling them "Unworthy", as seen by her targeting Wanda.

Yes, the events of Wandavision. Not her entire life.

No, it was specifically when Wanda went into Agatha's mind to make her see the coven's death again. She was walking around as Agatha was saying "no, stop, not this" (pretending to panic because she knew she was going to flip it on Wanda anyway), and Wanda said "The difference between you and me, is you did this on purpose" or something along those lines.

It wasn't about the events of WandaVision, it was about the murder of her coven.

[Fabinas]

The whole point of the week-to-week format is to foster that crazy discussion, and make it a "watercooler" show (LOL, as if any of us are in the office). Like GoT and LOST before it. The problem with this format is that it never pays off on all that discussion. I agree, the binge-format would have softened the blow of the lack of pay offs much better.

But Disney doesn't seem to want to do the binge format, at all. And if they're going to do a weekly format, they're going to have to pay some stuff off better.

FWIW, I prefer the week-to-week format.

Don't forget they also want subscriptions to Disney+, given their content library is much much less than Netfix's or HBO's

[Jester Joe]

Wanda used that event to torment her. Agatha’s reaction when the illusion is brought forth says a ton. In addition to seeing that event unfold I’m saying Agatha is going to be our next Loki type. Villainous at times(like in this series) and helpful at other times.

Oh without a doubt Agatha is definitely on a Loki level. She's selfish more than evil.

But I still stand by her reaction to the illusion being an act, because of how quickly she swaps from panic to "see, I told you so" when they turn on Wanda.
Also for someone who was supposedly going to be killed for "not being able to control her magic", she quickly went down the same route with Wanda instead of trying to teach her, hence why I stand by saying that almost everything about her was an act (besides when talking about Wanda herself in the last episodes).

Although I believe they mentioned something about her intentionally trying to use Dark magic, not just being unable to control her power.

[MCMLXXXII]

Don't forget they also want subscriptions to Disney+, given their content library is much much less than Netfix's or HBO's

Well with the addition of Star their content library grew immensely.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

“But... but... she’s mean sounding and flew around all menacingly... and she uses purple magic! Everyone knows purple is the evil color in movies!”

You can’t blame people too much, though. Marvel has always had good guys vs. bad guys. I don’t think Matt Shakman knew what he was doing with the two characters if it was his intentions to have Agatha as bad and Wanda as good.

She's not a nice person IMO, I can't say Wanda is bad but thats mostly cause of her grief and pain and while I'm no sorcerer, sometimes the pain of something just being there and not being able to distract myself from it(OCD really makes this worse and add Anxiety disorder into the mix). Clearly this whole series is almost a way of showing mental health matters. That said though the power that Wanda has at her disposal, I'd be scared of her(Superpowered in this universe or even just watching the show).

[ProphetFlume]

What makes Agatha a great character in my mind is how she revels in doing what she does. She legit looks like she's having a great time fucking around with Wanda and the citizens. After she killed her coven she's laughing maniacally at their weakness. These aren't the actions of a tragic hero but rather a twisted villain. She plays so well off the flaws of the heroine in this story to the point of crossing the line into actually helping Wanda recognize them herself. I think we may try to equate her as a good guy (or at least try to prime ourselves) because I think we can all agree she has a future working with the heroes down the line.

You need to watch this scene again because she never even makes a full smile.

[rogueMatthias]

So who was the actor that "hadn't got spoilt" who Bettany was apparently super excited to be working with in the end episodes?


Also, I found Darcy's one scene then abrupt departure pretty weird.


Also, the after credits clips on a few episodes was a draft idea. I know a few people that were super confused about white vision showing up.

[Nerraw]

So who was the actor that "hadn't got spoilt" who Bettany was apparently super excited to be working with in the end episodes?

Himself. He was talking about acting across from himself. Absolute legend.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

So who was the actor that "hadn't got spoilt" who Bettany was apparently super excited to be working with in the end episodes

That was a joke he made in an interview about playing opposite himself that the internet went into complete meltdown over.

[Anastacy]

People defending Agatha reeeeeaaaaally need to pay attention to Hanh’s facial expressions while she’s delivering her lines, and sometimes immediately after.

Such an expressive actress.

[Endus]

Agatha is framed as evil, though. If Wanda is supposed to be our heroine, Agatha, is the antagonist. She is purposely messing with Wanda's illusion in order to spiral her out of control, not stop it or fix it. She recognized that Wanda is pretty much "Coo coo for coco puffs" and still deceives and manipulates her. Walking Wanda through her grief wasn't to help Wanda. It is explicitly because she wants to know how Wanda created the hex world.

There's a really important element to narrative that you need to be able to recognize.

The protagonist is not necessarily a hero. The antagonist is not necessarily a villain. Look at the TV show Dexter, for instance; the protagonist is a serial killer. He enjoys butchering people. He's completely capable of targeting innocents without any real moral quibbles, he chooses not to out of a sense of reasoned ethics. The police trying to figure out his crimes are, literally, antagonists, but they're not villains. We're just seeing a story from the villain's point of view.

Or, perhaps in a better example that's entirely MCU-relevant, Loki. He was the out-and-out villain of the first Avengers. Most of his roles since have been as a sidekick, mostly. And he's going to be headlining his own show as the protagonist soon. He isn't always a villain, nor is he always the antagonist; you have to look at his actual behaviour within the story to determine that.

Yes, Agatha is obviously the antagonist. That doesn't mean she's a villain.

She then tries to play on the offer that her knowledge can fix Wanda's hex bubble (after she went around screwing with it). However, in the final battle when she thinks she has absorbed Wanda's powers she reveals that her offer to make Wanda's Hex world right was a lie and that once cast the spell cannot be modified.

Yes, she lied to the toddler to try and get the toddler to hand over the loaded gun they were playing with. And?

I don't agree that this is villainy. She's got super-good reasons for taking that kind of stance against Wanda. Is it possible she has darker, villainous reasons as well? Sure. But we don't see that.

no she killed them on purpose to get their powers and live longer which was obvious to see in the show....

Literally not the case.

She didn't confront them; she was doing her own thing when they hunted her down and accosted her.
She plead with them for them to release her, that they can go their separate ways. They refused.
They actively started trying to kill her.
Then Agatha turned their magic around on them, killing them in turn.

It was entirely self defense, and Agatha did everything reasonable to avoid having to turn to that kind of force.

And as we've seen through the entire events of WandaVision, Agatha is an actress who will fit any part to get what she wants. Again, she showed little remorse about the events, and even went to continue to target people to drain calling them "Unworthy", as seen by her targeting Wanda.

I mean, she also expresses a ton of concern that chaos magic is way too dangerous for an untrained witch to handle, and that the Scarlet Witch specifically is a character who's prophesied to literally destroy the world through chaos magic run amok.

That's why I keep using the "toddler with a loaded gun" metaphor. Maybe she's lying about all that, sure. But we don't really get given any reason to believe she is.

No, it was specifically when Wanda went into Agatha's mind to make her see the coven's death again. She was walking around as Agatha was saying "no, stop, not this" (pretending to panic because she knew she was going to flip it on Wanda anyway), and Wanda said "The difference between you and me, is you did this on purpose" or something along those lines.

It wasn't about the events of WandaVision, it was about the murder of her coven.

I really can't see that as "murder". They had her tied to a stake and were actively trying to kill her at the time. It was certainly presented as a moment with finality, and Agatha clearly didn't have much heartbreak about it, but she tried to convince them to let her go before she had to resort to such tactics. It's hard to call it "murder" when Agatha was turning their own murderous magicks back upon them somehow.

It's also pretty damned hard to take her coven as the "good guys" when they showed zero remorse or hesitation about murdering Agatha, in the first place. And no; I won't accept that it's a reasonable execution because A> the death penalty is balls in the first place, and B> they're seven people in a magic gang, not a government.

I see that situation as more like an ex-gangster being dragged out into the desert by his old gang, so they can kill him and toss him in a shallow grave for leaving, and he pulls out a concealed weapon when they rush in to stab him to death, and manages to fight and kill them all without dying himself. Is he the bad guy, in that situation? Seriously?

- - - Updated - - -

People defending Agatha reeeeeaaaaally need to pay attention to Hanh’s facial expressions while she’s delivering her lines, and sometimes immediately after.

Such an expressive actress.

I agree that she's an expressive actress, and that her performance here was very key to how you should interpret Agatha's actions.

I just fundamentally disagree with you that she comes off as a true villain, with malice as her base intent.

[Jester Joe]

I mean, she also expresses a ton of concern that chaos magic is way too dangerous for an untrained witch to handle, and that the Scarlet Witch specifically is a character who's prophesied to literally destroy the world through chaos magic run amok.

That's why I keep using the "toddler with a loaded gun" metaphor. Maybe she's lying about all that, sure. But we don't really get given any reason to believe she is.

Except she didn't seem to have any concern for ridding the world of that magic, just to have it for herself. Nothing about correcting anything, teaching, removing, anything.

She just wanted to drain it for herself.

I really can't see that as "murder". They had her tied to a stake and were actively trying to kill her at the time. It was certainly presented as a moment with finality, and Agatha clearly didn't have much heartbreak about it, but she tried to convince them to let her go before she had to resort to such tactics. It's hard to call it "murder" when Agatha was turning their own murderous magicks back upon them somehow.

It's also pretty damned hard to take her coven as the "good guys" when they showed zero remorse or hesitation about murdering Agatha, in the first place. And no; I won't accept that it's a reasonable execution because A> the death penalty is balls in the first place, and B> they're seven people in a magic gang, not a government.

I see that situation as more like an ex-gangster being dragged out into the desert by his old gang, so they can kill him and toss him in a shallow grave for leaving, and he pulls out a concealed weapon when they rush in to stab him to death, and manages to fight and kill them all without dying himself. Is he the bad guy, in that situation? Seriously?

I'm confused again still here.

Agatha's magic leaves whoever she drains dead.

Like, you can literally see Wanda was shriveling up and dying from it. She lied about fixing the hex, and she showed no intention to help Wanda out either with living. So...she was killing Wanda just for being a threat, and that's reasonable, yet when Agatha's coven tried to kill her for using dark magic that was forbidden, (AKA- A threat), it's wrong?

I really think you're missing that part. They didn't drag Agatha out just for being Agatha. They dragged her out because she was intentionally using magic that was forbidden.

I'll agree that she's not a full blown villain, she's obviously on par with Loki in morality. But are we going to forget that Loki was also the reason the first Avengers movie happened? He almost ended up destroying Earth.

[rhorle]

Yes, Agatha is obviously the antagonist. That doesn't mean she's a villain.

She is a villain in Wandavision though and not simply an antagonist. Self defense is a matter of perspective that is only being used because it helps support your side. Which your Dexter example highlights perfectly. When the narrative is from the perspective of the bad guy then cops are actually the villain rather then the good guys. She already committed the crime, off screen, and was being punished for it. That isn't self defense any longer. Is it possible she has a story arc that redeems her?Sure. You love to bring up Loki with out acknowledging that he has already had that redemption arc where as Agatha has not.

Why would her coven have to show remorse or hesitation when they could have done all of that off screen? You keep trying to assign motive to characters that don't even exist on screen. Not to mention you are projecting your own personal beliefs of the death penalty and that they are not a legally binding authority. I think this is the problem with a lot of your theories and discussion of them. You can't separate the show from reality and the differences between the Narrative of the show and your own personal views.

Using that logic then Thanos shouldn't have been opposed and the Avengers are actually the bad guys. Because the death penalty is balls and the Avengers were not a governing authority over Thanos.

[Endus]

Except she didn't seem to have any concern for ridding the world of that magic, just to have it for herself. Nothing about correcting anything, teaching, removing, anything.

She just wanted to drain it for herself.

She, in her own mind, thinks she knows what she's doing. Again, it's like taking that loaded gun from the toddler. You're still gonna have to be careful with it, because it's a loaded gun, but you've got better control with it than the toddler.

I'm confused again still here.

Agatha's magic leaves whoever she drains dead.

Like, you can literally see Wanda was shriveling up and dying from it. She lied about fixing the hex, and she showed no intention to help Wanda out either with living. So...she was killing Wanda just for being a threat, and that's reasonable, yet when Agatha's coven tried to kill her for using dark magic that was forbidden, (AKA- A threat), it's wrong?

I really think you're missing that part. They didn't drag Agatha out just for being Agatha. They dragged her out because she was intentionally using magic that was forbidden.

Forbidden by who? We're given no reason to think it's forbidden by anyone but that coven. They're a small gang, she's an ex-gang member. She broke the gang's rules, so they're gonna murder her for it. Why are we accepting the gang's authority in the matter in the first place? Especially when they're unwilling to hear any defense or explanation, unwilling to give Agatha any considerations or leeway, they just go straight to "you broke our rules, so you die now".

Frankly, they came off as really fucking evil, themselves.

I'll agree that she's not a full blown villain, she's obviously on par with Loki in morality. But are we going to forget that Loki was also the reason the first Avengers movie happened? He almost ended up destroying Earth.

I literally cited that incident when I brought up Loki, myself. My point there was that "villain" is contextual to actions, where "antagonist" is contextual solely to opposing the protagonist.

The Loki series could be Loki trying to figure out how he can murder the remaining Asgardians and steal Thor's powers for himself. And he'd be the protagonist of the series. Even if he's clearly a villainous one. Hero/villain and protagonist/antagonist are not analogues for each other; that's all I was saying.

[Jester Joe]

She, in her own mind, thinks she knows what she's doing. Again, it's like taking that loaded gun from the toddler. You're still gonna have to be careful with it, because it's a loaded gun, but you've got better control with it than the toddler.



Forbidden by who? We're given no reason to think it's forbidden by anyone but that coven. They're a small gang, she's an ex-gang member. She broke the gang's rules, so they're gonna murder her for it. Why are we accepting the gang's authority in the matter in the first place? Especially when they're unwilling to hear any defense or explanation, unwilling to give Agatha any considerations or leeway, they just go straight to "you broke our rules, so you die now".

Frankly, they came off as really fucking evil, themselves.



I literally cited that incident when I brought up Loki, myself. My point there was that "villain" is contextual to actions, where "antagonist" is contextual solely to opposing the protagonist.

The Loki series could be Loki trying to figure out how he can murder the remaining Asgardians and steal Thor's powers for himself. And he'd be the protagonist of the series. Even if he's clearly a villainous one. Hero/villain and protagonist/antagonist are not analogues for each other; that's all I was saying.

How are you really defending Agatha trying to kill Wanda for her power though because "it's a threat" but the coven is evil for doing the same to Agatha?

[Endus]

She is a villain in Wandavision though and not simply an antagonist. Self defense is a matter of perspective that is only being used because it helps support your side. Which your Dexter example highlights perfectly. When the narrative is from the perspective of the bad guy then cops are actually the villain rather then the good guys.

You, like others, are confusing "protagonist/antagonist" with "hero/villain", and acting like the terms are interchangeable. They aren't. Protagonists are often terrible people. Antagonists are often perfectly fine folks. Consider The Fugitive; Harrison Ford's character Kimball is wrongfully convicted, so his protagonist is a good guy. Tommy Lee Jones' FBI agent is clearly the antagonist, as he's pursuing Kimball throughout, but he's also a really good guy, just a stickler for rules and procedure. If Kimball's innocent, he's got to prove that to the courts, it isn't his business, his business is just ensuring an escape convict is returned to prison.

She already committed the crime, off screen, and was being punished for it. That isn't self defense any longer. Is it possible she has a story arc that redeems her?Sure. You love to bring up Loki with out acknowledging that he has already had that redemption arc where as Agatha has not.

Again, what crime? We literally just have the word of 7 murderers that she did anything really wrong in the first place.

Why would her coven have to show remorse or hesitation when they could have done all of that off screen? You keep trying to assign motive to characters that don't even exist on screen. Not to mention you are projecting your own personal beliefs of the death penalty and that they are not a legally binding authority. I think this is the problem with a lot of your theories and discussion of them. You can't separate the show from reality and the differences between the Narrative of the show and your own personal views.

The problem with your stance here is that I'm relying just on what the show contains. I can't presume her coven had good reason for thinking Agatha needed to be killed; that was not shown to us in the show. So I do not assume that to be the case. I'm not the one presuming motives that aren't actually contained in the show; I'm insisting we take it on the actual content we were given. I'm not even arguing her coven couldn't have been in the right, just that we do not have any reason to believe that to be true, in the show itself. We just see them tying Agatha to a stake, denying her any defense or consideration, and then trying to murder her.

Using that logic then Thanos shouldn't have been opposed and the Avengers are actually the bad guys. Because the death penalty is balls and the Avengers were not a governing authority over Thanos.

Did you even watch Infinity War/Endgame?

Thanos wins in Infinity War because the Avengers don't just summarily execute him. Kind of the point of Thanos telling Thor he "should've gone for the head".

In the second, they don't even kill him. He's just . . . unmade by Tony's snap. And Thanos is actively trying to murder everyone at the time, in a war he started. So even there, it's clearly self defense, and we know why it's critical, because we experienced Infinity War.

I can't believe you actually watched those films and thought this was a valid counterpoint.

- - - Updated - - -

How are you really defending Agatha trying to kill Wanda for her power though because "it's a threat" but the coven is evil for doing the same to Agatha?

She tried to get Wanda to give up her power peacefully, multiple times.

Even at the end, she's still only absorbing the energies that Wanda is actively using to attack her, directly. If Wanda wasn't blasting her, she wouldn't be absorbing anything.

[rhorle]

The problem with your stance here is that I'm relying just on what the show contains.

That is a flat out lie and you know it. You literally just got done stating that you are basing your view on your personal opinion of the death penalty. That isn't something that is contained in the show. It isn't even grounded in real world views or law of the time period indicated on the show. This is just like you fighting to the death with Hayward and the deed. Just like in this case the show indicates nothing about the view you are fighting to keep.

It presents the punishment off an off screen crime. The show presents Agatha as a Villain over and over. You refuse to accept that is not based on anything in the show but your own personal theories and views.

[Endus]

That is a flat out lie and you know it. You literally just got done stating that you are basing your view on your personal opinion of the death penalty.

An "opinion" that's pretty much the international legal standard in the developed world. Hardly a stretch, dude.

It isn't even grounded in real world views or law of the time period indicated on the show.

Slavery would've been legal back then. I'd still consider a character who was a slaveowner back then to be a cruel, inhumane bastard of a human being. The era isn't a justification.

This is just like you fighting to the death with Hayward and the deed. Just like in this case the show indicates nothing about the view you are fighting to keep.

You mean how I went back and double checked and acknowledged I was wrong about how things played out?

Sure, Jan.

It presents the punishment off an off screen crime.

No. It doesn't.

It shows the punishment of breaking this gang's particular set of rules for members. That's not the same thing as a "crime". Or do you think gang executions are just the punishment for the victim's crimes?

Her coven are not legal authorities of any kind.