Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Felya]

Again, if Manchin was the sole person then the increase in unemployement wouldn't have been in either, since he was ACTUALLY the sole person responsible for no increase in unemployement. No, REALITY is that 8 dems voted against 15 not just manchin. 8>1. include sinema 8>2. I mean, there was a vote on it ffs.

Oh, I think I get it... Can I blame Manchin at an 8th of my usual angst?

[beanman12345]

Oh, I think I get it... Can I blame Manchin at an 8th of my usual angst?

Sure. Opinions and Buttholes... All I can do is show what happened.

[Lanrefni]

Can we all agree that Manchin needs to be replaced with somebody more progressive?

Good fucking luck with that,if Manchin gets the boot WV will send us another Republican/Trumpkin who will vote NO on everything that doesn't allow them to own the libs.

[Felya]

Good fucking luck with that,if Manchin gets the boot WV will send us another Republican/Trumpkin who will vote NO on everything that doesn't allow them to own the libs.

Yeah, the goal should be convincing people. I know all the polling shows support for progressive issues, but what does it matter, when it’s concentrated in NY and California? There is hope with people “fleeing” LA and NYC, but I think those are not going to shift anything.

What ever happened in GA, they need to do everywhere else... otherwise, Manchin is the best you got.

[Orange Joe]

has it been discussed yet of how Joe Biden let the Saudis off the hook for the murder of that journalist?

You mean Trump let them off the hook? If I remember right Trump was president when it happened not Biden.

[downnola]

Can we all agree that Manchin needs to be replaced with somebody more progressive?

Yes, and possibly Schumer as majority leader for being unable to get all of the Democratic senators to fall in line.

[Bodakane]

The GOP has been moving further right, yes. But the country? No. Things like gay marriage that were a hot-button national issue back in even 2008 have become solidified in the national eye as acceptable and commonplace. The voices rebelling against them have grown quieter and weaker. Are those protesting bigots still there? Yes. But in the minds of most Americans and in the law? Things like gay marriage are settled. That is left-wing progress you can take to the bank.

The victories the GOP has won since 2008 have been fleeting. Hurtful to the nation? Most certainly. But fleeting nonetheless.

You can cite Palin and the Tea Party as being further bastardizations of Bush's form of republicanism. And you'd be right. But Palin and the Tea Party didn't win. Not in 2008, not in 2012. The eventual victory the then further bastardization of that bastardization, the Trumpkins, won in 2016 by the slimmest of margins. It was by no means a resounding Republican victory. Then they lost the house in 2018, lost reelection in 2020 and lost the senate to boot.

The democrats "not winning as big as they could have" does not mean the republicans won. That's critical to remember. To paraphrase Endus' sentiment, a victory is a victory, no matter how small.

You're not going to defeat a massive, embastioned political party like the GOP that operates with a rabid lockstep fanbase, hundreds of millions of corporate sponsorship dollars, and, most critically, zero moral compunction, with some big "gotcha" piece of legislation or flashy victory. Bernie would be facing the exact same opposition Biden and co. are facing right now. He could have come in swinging with medicare for all in one hand and free college in the other and the GOP would have shut him down all the same. I'd even wager that facing a victorious Bernie would have inflamed the GOP even more than Biden did, and I think Bernie would actually probably have lost against Trump, but that speculation is neither here nor there and my original point stands without it.

You defeat the GOP by chipping away at it and how they're able to retain such power despite them holding favor only with shrinking demographics the nation over. Defeating the GOP is climbing a mountain. You do it hand over hand and one step at a time, and you never let go. Just because the next handhold isn't the summit doesn't mean you let off your climb and let go in disgust, because then you just fucking die. It's the same with politics.

I disagree.

Sure gay marriage has been becoming more acceptable, but race relations are worsening. We've lost significant ground in the fight for the environment. Immigration is worse. The poor are getting poorer. Half the country outwardly hates science. The police have become more militarized and unaccountable. The rich get more tax breaks. The courts from county to SC have become more conservative. Trump cannot be held accountable for any of the numerous federal crimes he's committed. The ACA (which was conservative to begin with) is gutted. And now, we are on the doorstep of significant voter restrictions incoming.

Sure they the Tea Party didn't win that year, but not seeing how they morphed and grew into Trump cultists is either disingenuous or extremely naive.

Furthermore, I'm extremely tired of this false narrative that we are saying, "progressive or nothing". We weren't saying it in 2016, 2020 or now. We are trying to get you guys to see the trends and change your strategy since it isn't actually working. And, no, a Biden isn't proof its working because we all know, if Trump didn't get 500K people killed to due to incompetence, he was going to beat Biden.

[SavoirFaire]

Yes, and possibly Schumer as majority leader for being unable to get all of the Democratic senators to fall in line.

If min wage hike was going to fail then it’s entirely likely some of the “no’s” did so to save face back home. “Well I went for the stimulus, but 15/hr was too much for our economy” or some such.

What really should be done is another vote at 14, then 13, etc. make it known 15 is the goal, but you’ll get what you can take.

Though I think 12-13/hr and redefining what can be a salaried employee would do better. None of this 40 hour job working 10+ Unpaid hours garbage. Force that to be time and a half and you may find more minimum wage jobs being created to ease that load.

[bladeXcrasher]

If min wage hike was going to fail then it’s entirely likely some of the “no’s” did so to save face back home. “Well I went for the stimulus, but 15/hr was too much for our economy” or some such.

What really should be done is another vote at 14, then 13, etc. make it known 15 is the goal, but you’ll get what you can take.

Though I think 12-13/hr and redefining what can be a salaried employee would do better. None of this 40 hour job working 10+ Unpaid hours garbage. Force that to be time and a half and you may find more minimum wage jobs being created to ease that load.

$15 is already not enough. Also, I highly doubt you will get much from those 8 especially with Thumbs Down Karen even pushing for a minimum wage increase in 2014. I wouldn't be surprised if even a $1 increase over the current would be seen as "too much".

[Themius]

There's also a lot of supposed Democratic supporters who're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, here. Shitting on a bill because their pet issue isn't front and center, or was reduced somewhat in how it was implemented, despite the bill still being a significant improvement over the status quo. Pass the bill, push further after.

It's like an advancing front in a war. You don't insist you push a charge all the way to the enemy's central headquarters or you're wasting time. If you wait on that kind of perfect strike, you lose the war. You advance where you find a weak point, and hold what ground you can, when you can. Not taking ground because it's "not enough to win yet" just means you never take any ground, and the enemy gets to nickel and dime you until you lose everything.

The reduction in the bill will cost democrats. When you consider that under trump millions more would have gotten money and a higher amount and democrat infighting is has done the following:

Broke promise of retroactivity
Broke promise of 600 weekly payments
reduced payments to 400.
no j/k reduced payments to 300
means-testing to cut out I believe 12 million people
reduced 2000 check to 1400
note here that after approval of the 600 democrats still ran on 2000 checks not 1400 but a bill to pass 2000 checks with 600 weekly payements
also important to note that democrats said once they're in we can finally get retroactive payments since the pandemic didn't stop due to Washington squabbling over how many trillions to give to businesses

What does not pushing all the way get us? A bunch of unhappy people with democrats who broke major promises they made and showed themselves to be utter lying shits when they say they want a $15 minimum wage.

Doing so would have given the democrats ground since every one loves it.

[Draco-Onis]

Can we all agree that Manchin needs to be replaced with somebody more progressive?

I would say the best play is to get two senators from Texas, West Virginia is Trump country.

[masterhorus8]

The reduction in the bill will cost democrats. When you consider that under trump millions more would have gotten money and a higher amount and democrat infighting is has done the following:

[citation needed]

[Felya]

What does not pushing all the way get us?

Money to people who need it most, instead of a quagmire of debates through summer... What do you think we would get if Atlanta went GOP?

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I would say the best play is to get two senators from Texas, West Virginia is Trump country.

What ever Abrams did in GA, needs to happen in Texas... especially after the shit storms that keep hitting them...

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When you consider that under trump millions more would have gotten money

You mean like the 1200 he got us, that democrats passed in May or the 2000 he demanded to spite GOP? No, Trump refused to back any money... to anyone outside big business... What did he do after saying 2000? Sign off on 600? Attach section 230?

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[citation needed]

Yeah, we are just supposed to forget that democrats were pushing for 1200 since May and Trumps demand of 2k was to spite GOP for not backing his ‘stop the steal’. Attaching shit like section 230, then signing off on 600. #progressives

Edit: ‘Trump would have gotten more money’ is so irksome... Is infrastructure week still coming? Is the middle class tax cut, still in the works? How about the best healthcare in the world? Absence makes the heart grow fonder? Wtf?

[Paranoid Android]

."It's designed to make sure the minority has input,"@Sen_JoeManchin says of removing the filibuster. "That's basically our founding fathers. ... I'm not willing to take [that] away."

@chucktodd: "Senator, the filibuster was never an idea of the founding fathers."

https://twitter.com/MeetThePress/sta...656470017?s=19

Sad when a US Senator does not know the Constitution. Nowhere is the Filibuster in the US Constitution.

[Felya]

https://twitter.com/MeetThePress/sta...656470017?s=19

Sad when a US Senator does not know the Constitution. Nowhere is the Filibuster in the US Constitution.

Can you imagine protesting, by signing a paper that you have disagreed for a long period of time, but to skip the time wasting involved in stating your point... you just get exactly what you demanded?

[D Luniz]

Can we all agree that Manchin needs to be replaced with somebody more progressive?

yes, but considering its West Virginia
he's is likely the best you'll get there.

[Bodakane]

yes, but considering its West Virginia
he's is likely the best you'll get there.

People never thought GA would go blue.

[eschatological]

Again, if Manchin was the sole person then the increase in unemployement wouldn't have been in either, since he was ACTUALLY the sole person responsible for no increase in unemployement. No, REALITY is that 8 dems voted against 15 not just manchin. 8>1. include sinema 8>2. I mean, there was a vote on it ffs.

A vote on an amendment, separate from a bill.

Politics is about balancing out wants and needs vs. things you're willing to compromise on. Those other Dems would have compromised on minimum wage if it was in the COVID bill. Manchin (and maybe Sinema) wouldn't have. Separating a key point out into an amendment is how you give a provision a chance to die.

It's almost entirely on those two.

And to suggest you look at the vote on an amendment where the main bill (COVID relief) can still pass is hilariously naive. Yeah, some Dems didn't want to vote for higher minimum wage, but would have swallowed that pill for COVID relief.

[downnola]

People never thought GA would go blue.

True, but West Virginia is a completely different animal compared to GA.

https://timeline.com/amp/p/a94a2245743f

[Bodakane]

True, but West Virginia is a completely different animal compared to GA.

https://timeline.com/amp/p/a94a2245743f

I dunno, i think a lot of this, X will never turn red/blue is a self fulfilling prophecy.