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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by EyelessCrow View Post
    I keep trying to play, I hate the expansion, it's absolutely boring, it's not Warcraft to me. My addiction has kept me logging in to sit there, being completely uninterested in every class. The factions are not interesting and none of them make me care. The lore characters I was excited to see seem like they don't really even matter. So there goes even more of what little "Wacraft" Shadowlands had. Torghast is uninspired and at no point was it exciting to get stupid strong powers, it almost feels required to get them to proceed, so a fun experience turns into the opposite most of the time.

    I couldn't care less about the lore. I'm sick of Sylvanas, I'm sick of Anduin. It's only going to get worse, they've jumped the shark with the WoW storyline. Total playtime this expansion at this time is probably a fraction of any other point in my history of playing WoW. I thought at first I was just getting too old and burnt out on WoW. Now I'm certain the game just sucks now. Also, hearing Pelagos talk creeps me the hell out. That's not a reason why I think WoW sucks now. I'm just stating whenever that character talks like they are trying to be a human being but is actually a robot...that kills small animals in their spare time.
    I Stopped playing a while back, but decided to give SL a go again last thursday. My sub runs out in 14 days, so I thought why not? Maybe its not that bad. Well, I played my Paladin and decided to complete the campaign that makes you go into thorgast for clues. I had one left, so decided to do that. I hadnt even cleared floor one and I found it SO boring and utter useless. I pushed myself to clear enough levels to get the item, and left.

    I cant believe Thorgast was pumped up so much before SL launched by the content creators on twitch/youtube. Its a shite feature overall, VERY boring, mundane and quite frankly on par with warfonts/isles in BFA. Only reason its done is because of soul ash.

    I played a few other characters I have but I quickly realised I had to farm boring shite to get conduits and whatnot on them to, and logged off. I might level my Highmountain Druid to 50 just for heritage, but thats about it. If I can be bothered with it before sub runs out.

    Im sitting with the same feeling I had back in WoD. I had great fun while leveling and enjoyed the first month(s) of WoD. Then suddenly it crashed hard and I didnt really return until a week before new xpac.

    And im with you on that this doesnt feel like Warcraft, it just doesnt. I dont know what to call it, but its not Warcraft. Im also very tierd of Sylvanas and cant wait for that whole ordeal to be over. Im just praying they leave her to rest in whatever way before the next xpac.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I only play WoW casually these days so I was excited to hear about VP coming back and was thinking about resubbing. Turns out I can't even use the system because I only do heroic dungeons and an occasional set of m0s when the weekly quest hits.
    yep, the valor system was welcomed by me too. Then I saw how it will be implemented, and now I dont give a shit. I do mythic dungeons on the lower end, cause I get some items from it and its not a pure toxic shithole. The higher the key, the more toxic and shit the experience is. Also the higher the key, the more addons and guides you gotta read up on.

    I really thought this valor change would be like in the old days. Do a dungeon, get something out of it.

    Oh well. Dungeons more or less died off for me when they introduced m+, so yeah. Im not raiding and not a fan of m+, so I suppose the game aint for me anymore!

  2. #622
    So apparently WoW lost nearly half of its subs? This is what happens when you hire a soulless and toxic raider from EJ as your game lead who is only interested in catering to his bunch of m+ and raiding buddies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Biden is a creepy old dude, I will not be voting for the guy.
    ^ This is from a self-proclaimed Trump-hater who goes round vote-policing, berating and insulting other users for expressing their doubts and reservations about Joe Biden. He also urges others to end relationships and friendships just to "vote Trump out". https://ibb.co/2jRnZGC He can't seem to walk the talk himself.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    My thoughts exactly. They are just making systems that cater to a small portion of players. They are obsessed with M+ and Raids.
    Raids generate interests from the World First race. Everyone gets to see it because of LFR, so they care about raids. A core feature at max level in wow, even though LFR cant be considered raiding. But hey, we get to see the raids!

    m+ is pushed cause doing dungeons is now considered Esport with the MDI. With it comes meta, optimal routes for each dungeon, what trash to skip and what to kill for 100% trash clear, how to kill each trash pack and where, plus much more.

    If you want to do m+ now, you gotta read up on a whole guide. If you dont, well.. You dont and miss out.

    Personally i've never liked m+ and it effectivly killed one of my fav max level activites.

  4. #624
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    So apparently WoW lost nearly half of its subs? This is what happens when you hire a soulless and toxic raider from EJ as your game lead who is only interested in catering to his bunch of m+ and raiding buddies.
    We've come to the point where hard-core players are just raid logging, whereas casuals are struggling hard to progress (and no, VP in their current iteration will barely help casuals). Hmmm, where have I seen that before...
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    We've come to the point where hard-core players are just raid logging, whereas casuals are struggling hard to progress (and no, VP in their current iteration will barely help casuals). Hmmm, where have I seen that before...
    To be fair that is when wow is best. It should have a sense of "I'm done" then allow people to play casually with alts. The only real black marks I can see against SL is how boring the maw, torghast, and grinding relics is. Loot needs to be fixed as well...why they decided to make it rare compared to returning it to pre warforged eludes me but it needs to be fixed.

    WoW should be encouraging people to hit the next tier of difficulty not to farm the first level of it for eternity.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Another possibility is that the population of MMO-champion has changed.
    My personal theory is that the proportion of "professional haters of WoW" has risen dramatically here in the last years, not because more have begun to hate wow, but because those that came here before to discuss how to get better - class forums especially - now have left for various discords and only the bitter, slighted lovers remain...
    this is like 100% true. MMO-C is just a graveyard of old bitter players at this point, really.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    So apparently WoW lost nearly half of its subs? This is what happens when you hire a soulless and toxic raider from EJ as your game lead who is only interested in catering to his bunch of m+ and raiding buddies.
    It is not different from previous expansions, it means nothing.

    @crusadernero, yes keys gwt more toxic above 4/5, but then they get way less toxic at 10+. But you havent tried doing those keys have you? Because you need to read a guide? Find me a multiplayer game where you dont need to get some information outside of the game for comparablw doffuculty levels.

    I just can't take players saying VP is shit implementation seriously, when they cant even bother doing m0(not you). It was a currency to fix m+ gearing, not to give you extra gear for no reason.

  8. #628
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    We've come to the point where hard-core players are just raid logging, whereas casuals are struggling hard to progress (and no, VP in their current iteration will barely help casuals). Hmmm, where have I seen that before...
    Well maybe because hard-core raiders are the target audience. WoW always had the best raiding scene, but it was never that much good for casual gamers. Like I prefer FFXIV mostly, but if you were interested in high end raiding or PVP I would tell you to avoid it like the plague. It's fine, you can't appeal to everyone. WoW found its niche with raiders. It might be a far smaller niche than the 12 million people we had in WotLK, but even with 1 or 2 million it is a money printing machine. All they need to do is a patch every half a year or so and an expansion every two years.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    I cant believe Thorgast was pumped up so much before SL launched by the content creators on twitch/youtube. Its a shite feature overall, VERY boring, mundane and quite frankly on par with warfonts/isles in BFA. Only reason its done is because of soul ash.
    I can relate to this. I (guildless, mostly solo player) got excited about Thorgast because it sounded like they were aiming it precisely at my playstyle. However, it turned out flawed because:
    (i) for my class/spec, most of a Thorgast run is bereft of challenge and thus extremely boring; and
    (ii) the only challenge there is comes from the final boss, but reaching such boss requires a long time invested in the boring part and, on top of that, the fight itself often turns out to be an RNG fight instead of a challenge to overcome through planing and skill; and
    (iii) after having upgraded my legendary of choice there is no meaningful reward to pursue in there. Not even 35 anima
    Twisted Corridors is similar, but worse (boring part takes much, much longer, more punishing boss RNG). I made the mistake to waste 2.5 hours in there once, only to be crushed by the level 16 boss. I wasted one try getting crushed. Then I wasted two tries examining the boss's spells to figure out what was killing me. Then I spent two tries trying out combinations of "oh shit" buttons / dps cooldowns. Both failed, and although I had more ideas to try (and was prepared to wipe in there for a much longer time), there is no way whatsoever that I will spend another boring 2.5 hours of my time getting back to level 16.

    It is in fact more fun to try my hand at some Legion hc/mythic bosses. If I wipe on them, I can change my tactic and try again as many times as I want without getting locked out for the week by RNG. If I manage to kill one, there's a chance of a transmog reward. In other words, Thorgast (in its current incarnation) is less fun and less rewarding than soloing old raids.

  10. #630
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Well maybe because hard-core raiders are the target audience.
    I don't think that a handful of hardcore raiders are enough to keep this game afloat when it comes to $$$. But we shall see soon enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by BarosanuNr1 View Post
    I can relate to this. I (guildless, mostly solo player) got excited about Thorgast because it sounded like they were aiming it precisely at my playstyle. However, it turned out flawed because:
    (i) for my class/spec, most of a Thorgast run is bereft of challenge and thus extremely boring; and
    (ii) the only challenge there is comes from the final boss, but reaching such boss requires a long time invested in the boring part and, on top of that, the fight itself often turns out to be an RNG fight instead of a challenge to overcome through planing and skill; and
    (iii) after having upgraded my legendary of choice there is no meaningful reward to pursue in there. Not even 35 anima
    Twisted Corridors is similar, but worse (boring part takes much, much longer, more punishing boss RNG). I made the mistake to waste 2.5 hours in there once, only to be crushed by the level 16 boss. I wasted one try getting crushed. Then I wasted two tries examining the boss's spells to figure out what was killing me. Then I spent two tries trying out combinations of "oh shit" buttons / dps cooldowns. Both failed, and although I had more ideas to try (and was prepared to wipe in there for a much longer time), there is no way whatsoever that I will spend another boring 2.5 hours of my time getting back to level 16.

    It is in fact more fun to try my hand at some Legion hc/mythic bosses. If I wipe on them, I can change my tactic and try again as many times as I want without getting locked out for the week by RNG. If I manage to kill one, there's a chance of a transmog reward. In other words, Thorgast (in its current incarnation) is less fun and less rewarding than soloing old raids.
    It's Torghast.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Well maybe because hard-core raiders are the target audience.
    1. The amount of work involved in order to maintain a competitive character has gone up over the years since Legion.
    A lot of the hardcore audience have pointed this out and very much complained over this, to them, a return to any post TBC status would be very welcome.

    2. Catchup with each patch is through the roof.
    There is a soft gear reset with pretty much every patch now, this is most certainly not to the benefit of the hardcore raiders, but to the casual audience that checks in out so they can instantly do [current content].

    3. The devs received a ton of criticism for the covenant system from the hardcore players, yet they still implemented it with the friction they initially intended.

    4.Blizzard has increased the acessability of every piece of content, so you're no longer reliant on social groups to engage in any sort of content.
    That has again not certainly happened because of hardcore raiders, who are used to forming their own groups.

    Those are facts, how one can possibly come to the conclusion that WoW targets hardcore players is beyond me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    It might be a far smaller niche than the 12 million people we had in WotLK, but even with 1 or 2 million it is a money printing machine.
    I don't know what sort of Wotlk you've played, but i'd argue that in comparison to any recent WoW expansion, Wotlk is downright hardcore.

    No LFR.
    Catchup only awards gear the lowest Ilvl from the previous tier, meaning you still have to work through the previous tier rather than just jump into the current one.
    If you don't raid, you can basically stop playing after farming heroics because the game is effectively over for you.

    I really think that a lot of those casual players which believe WoW is nowadays intended for the "Hardcore audience" have a very skewed image of WoW that seems to be like:
    "I don't like WoW anymore and i am casual, since casuals and hardcore players are opposed to each other, it means they design the game around hardcore players!".

    The simple reality is just that WoW no longer has a real target audience, the game is utterly torn between catering to pseudo E-Sport, entertaining people that have only very limited time available while wanting to see every piece content and also still humoring the idea that it's some sort of RPG.

    Everything must somehow work for everybody and thus ends up being a at best neutral experience for everyone because nobody gets the feeling anymore that any content is actually made for them.
    That is the real issue, blindly pointing at some audience and saying "They're designing the game around those!" is just a half truth.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-03-08 at 03:34 PM.

  13. #633
    I feel like the people who complain about raid logging now are the same people who complained about the grind in Legion and BFA.

    Sometimes I'm curious what people want because I've seen the same complaints recycled over a decade in the game. When Wotlk and Cata were current, there was constant moaning about how you'd run around the capital city not really having anything worthwhile to do. A decade later in SL we have the same complaint yet in Legion/BFA there was too much to do instead. I feel like the only conclusion we can draw is that no expansion has ever been great and even the better ones had some of the same issues the worst ones had.

  14. #634
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    I feel like the people who complain about raid logging now are the same people who complained about the grind in Legion and BFA.
    Have you ever entertained the idea that people aren't a monolithic entity, that opinions may often differ, even wildly so, within a playerbase as large (I assume) such as WoW's? Chances are that e.g. hardcore players will complain about the busywork required prior to raiding (AP/legendaries/corruptions/dailies/whatever), while casual players are more likely to complain when they hit a wall in terms of character progression.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2021-03-08 at 04:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  15. #635
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I don't think that a handful of hardcore raiders are enough to keep this game afloat when it comes to $$$. But we shall see soon enough.
    That maybe so, but that is what WoW brings to the table. Some games have better story, better crafting, more casual content, better graphics or far more character customization. None of them are good for high end raiding. Regardless of the current state of raiding, it is where WoW can find its niche. That, PvP and Vanilla players with nostalgia goggles. It can't monopolize the market like before, because there are a bunch of other MMOs out there that do one or two things better, and players move migrate based on their taste.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That is the real issue, blindly pointing at some audience and saying "They're designing the game around those!" is just a half truth.
    I may have misspoke. Sorry about that. What I meant to say that the market is now saturated with MMOs doing or two things great and being mediocre to bad in everything else. The only thing with no real altearnative to WoW is raiding, so that is where I think they should focus most of their efforts on.

  16. #636
    US forums shown nice data.

    aparently when WoW was loosing its 50 % of playerbase due to SL being garbage , FF14 gained almost +1,5 mln active accounts in last 4 months.

    accident ? dont think so.

  17. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    It rapidly drops popularity as expected.
    Yep. Haven't touched the game in like 3 weeks, need to unsub.
    "A flower.
    Yes. Upon your return, I will gift you a beautiful flower."

    "Remember. Remember... that we once lived..."

    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  18. #638
    I wonder if some of the uptake of SL was simply a perception that there may not be many more WoW expansions.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  19. #639
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    US forums shown nice data.

    aparently when WoW was loosing its 50 % of playerbase due to SL being garbage , FF14 gained almost +1,5 mln active accounts in last 4 months.

    accident ? dont think so.
    Coincidentially (or not?), ESO forums are also full of people surprised at the growing influx of new players.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  20. #640
    So everyone quit wow and instantly went to other mmos. What are you guys doing here? Go play the more popular games. Wow is dying after all.

    Soon your achievement points that are holding you from quiting won't matter at all!
    Last edited by Cazze; 2021-03-08 at 09:20 PM.

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