Pokemon, Part 2

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The problem with silent protagonists is that hamstrings the storytelling in a huge way. The protagonist can't be an interesting character in of themselves, don't have a personality to get attached to. A lot of scenes have less weight than they could have because the character hardly - if ever - reacts to those events, and reactions are what gives an event weight. The writers also have to try to write a one sided relationship between the protagonist and other characters, where the other characters have to assume what the protagonist is thinking or doing, and if done wrong it can come off as railroady (at which point you mind as well just have a preset protagonist), or very unnatural (which draws attention to the flaws of your setup).

I have never ever heard someone say they wish the protagonist of a Pokemon game could talk.

Hell, a ton of RPGs with extremely engaging stories have silent protagonists (Persona series alone says hi).

I'd say that the stories of Pokemon Colosseum, and Pokemon Black & White, would have been a lot stronger had the protagonist been able to converse with the antagonists, usually over ideology.

• In Pokemon Colosseum, you play as Wes, a defector from Team Snaggem. Wes had spent years apart of Team Snaggem committing acts of evil, going around with his bros and beating up trainers and robbing them of their beloved Pokemon. Wes was feared, even by his own fellow gang members. Once the Shadow Pokemon experiments began, and the Pokemon Wes stole were being used to straight up assault people (and take over the world for an oppressive regime) did Wes finally have a change of heart, and he blew up his Team's base and went off on a one man crusade against his former comrades. The bulk of the game's dialogue comes from said former comrades, who you are fighting against. It feels very odd that Wes has absolutely nothing to say to them, when doing so could have reinforced the narrative. You could have had Wes inviting his comrades to join them, trying to make them see the error of their ways. Or rebutting those moments where the admins went "we are both the same". It also feels like Wes was supposed to have some sort of relationship with Rui, and trust becomes pretty important in that later on when Nascour dumps the reveal on her that Wes was responsible for everything in the first place, and throws shade on whether she should be blindly trusting him... but Wes just stands there and doesn't say anything.

• In Pokemon Black & White, the player has some pretty important conversations with N and Ghetsis. Having the protagonist character talk could have fleshed out the Hilda/Hilbert-N dynamic, and have fleshed out the moral quandries of the game. Also, this was the first game where there was a focus on the protagonist character's relationship with their friends (Cheren and Bianca) (whereas in previous games, you only bumped into May and Barry every now and then), so you could have improved that. XY is really, really weird, what with Shauna practically giving a love confession to you... but the PC has no characterization whatsoever, so I have no idea what she even saw in him.

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Silent protagonists are fine if they are not heavily connected to the characters of the story. But in the examples of above, you have the devs really trying to have a story where the player character and their relationships to other major characters is very important to the story, and it just doesn't work that well when the protagonist is silent.

So far, I've heard no emphasis on story in Legends, and if there is, we don't know if it will be written so that the protagonist's relationship to other characters will be important. If the game is mostly about the gameplay, not an epic story, a silent protagonist/nondescript customizeable self insert will be fine.

[Lahis]

All I know is that I'm gonna be pissed if it has less than 493.

Prepare to be angry then. Platinum dex is 210 so that is the absolute maximum they'll bother with.

[Darththeo]

Prepare to be angry then. Platinum dex is 210 so that is the absolute maximum they'll bother with.

Please stop. The evidence that your argument is wrong it isn't funny.

Gamefreak never stated that the only pokemon that would be available in the game will be exclusive to the regional dex, but rather the available pokemon will be fitting for the region. Alola didn't have a national dex, but there were available pokemon outside the dex to capture. Galar doesn't have a national dex, but there are pokemon outside the regional dex to capture or obtain.

So, no, it is more like 210 is the absolute minimum they'll use.

[Syegfryed]

If they were implemented in a way that wouldn't pander to specific fan-favorites only i'd be a fan of megas.

what i don't like is the design all together, feels very digimon-ish, evolving and coming back but apart from that i think it having a specific stone for every pokemon would be realistic(as far pokemon can be said realistic) impossible. But for sure they only giving then to fan-favorites, even the ones who were already strong is the worst.

I still can't believe Garchomp and salamance got one and Flygon not, because "they didn't came up with a good idea", like what, plus, gen 2 starters arguable one of the worst trio not having one after all this time is bullshit.

If they had handled them the same way Pokken did, by giving pokemon without a mega form a "synergy burst", which essentially still a stat burst, but comes with a minor heal instead the type/ability change i'd be all for it.

My dream is that one day they revisit gen 1-3 to put then in the same power creep gen 5-7 had with at least a status adjustment, i stop doing competitive after they became too much irrelevant in OU

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Not particularly excited for that. I can't think of any "evil team" that I was interested in. I was interested in a few characters, like Giovanni, or Tabitha, or N, or Ghestis, but the overall teams are forgettable. Plasma was the only one with a remotely interesting ideology. I'm struggling to imagine the villains of this game being anything more than generic mook fodder you fight against. But who knows.

only evil teams interesting are the Plasma, and funny enough, agua and manga, they may look dumb and silly, but their ideology and taking account how Japan was dealing about a similar issue was very "real" and mundane, but the team was taking to extremes seeing is a pokemon game, expanding the land mass so people who were suffering for over population could create more houses or build in general, and the people who were more interested in the ambiental preservation

[Jester Joe]

The problem with silent protagonists is that hamstrings the storytelling in a huge way. The protagonist can't be an interesting character in of themselves, don't have a personality to get attached to. A lot of scenes have less weight than they could have because the character hardly - if ever - reacts to those events, and reactions are what gives an event weight. The writers also have to try to write a one sided relationship between the protagonist and other characters, where the other characters have to assume what the protagonist is thinking or doing, and if done wrong it can come off as railroady (at which point you mind as well just have a preset protagonist), or very unnatural (which draws attention to the flaws of your setup).



I'd say that the stories of Pokemon Colosseum, and Pokemon Black & White, would have been a lot stronger had the protagonist been able to converse with the antagonists, usually over ideology.

• In Pokemon Colosseum, you play as Wes, a defector from Team Snaggem. Wes had spent years apart of Team Snaggem committing acts of evil, going around with his bros and beating up trainers and robbing them of their beloved Pokemon. Wes was feared, even by his own fellow gang members. Once the Shadow Pokemon experiments began, and the Pokemon Wes stole were being used to straight up assault people (and take over the world for an oppressive regime) did Wes finally have a change of heart, and he blew up his Team's base and went off on a one man crusade against his former comrades. The bulk of the game's dialogue comes from said former comrades, who you are fighting against. It feels very odd that Wes has absolutely nothing to say to them, when doing so could have reinforced the narrative. You could have had Wes inviting his comrades to join them, trying to make them see the error of their ways. Or rebutting those moments where the admins went "we are both the same". It also feels like Wes was supposed to have some sort of relationship with Rui, and trust becomes pretty important in that later on when Nascour dumps the reveal on her that Wes was responsible for everything in the first place, and throws shade on whether she should be blindly trusting him... but Wes just stands there and doesn't say anything.

• In Pokemon Black & White, the player has some pretty important conversations with N and Ghetsis. Having the protagonist character talk could have fleshed out the Hilda/Hilbert-N dynamic, and have fleshed out the moral quandries of the game. Also, this was the first game where there was a focus on the protagonist character's relationship with their friends (Cheren and Bianca) (whereas in previous games, you only bumped into May and Barry every now and then), so you could have improved that. XY is really, really weird, what with Shauna practically giving a love confession to you... but the PC has no characterization whatsoever, so I have no idea what she even saw in him.

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Silent protagonists are fine if they are not heavily connected to the characters of the story. But in the examples of above, you have the devs really trying to have a story where the player character and their relationships to other major characters is very important to the story, and it just doesn't work that well when the protagonist is silent.

So far, I've heard no emphasis on story in Legends, and if there is, we don't know if it will be written so that the protagonist's relationship to other characters will be important. If the game is mostly about the gameplay, not an epic story, a silent protagonist/nondescript customizeable self insert will be fine.

Except at no point in Black and White did the protagonists input matter. You can flesh out an antagonist without needing to have the protagonist talk.

Again, Persona 5. Gives you more than enough reason to want to take down basically every single big bad but yet the protagonist's never actually talks.

And mind you, one of these games are geared towards all ages while the other is meant for adults. You're not going to get some super morally in-depth story from a pokemon game because that's not something that's going to appeal to all ages. It's unnecessary fluff that won't improve anything. We didn't need a character to talk to N to realize how frustrated he was with how pokemon were treated.
We don't need someone to talk directly to Lillie or Gladion to understand how they reacted differently to their mother, they portray it just fine on their own.

[Syegfryed]

Thinking about, iam fine with the character not talking but i would like to see some choices in the pokemon game, like big ones that could affect the outcome or small events considerable, i didn't finish sun/moon neither played sword and shield and i don't know if is already there, but i think it would be cool

[Lahis]

Thinking about, iam fine with the character not talking but i would like to see some choices in the pokemon game, like big ones that could affect the outcome or small events considerable, i didn't finish sun/moon neither played sword and shield and i don't know if is already there, but i think it would be cool

No choices in any of the games.

[Jester Joe]

No choices in any of the games.

Uh, what.

There's always dialogue choices mind you, but there's the entire Applin evolution mini-event that can be completely missed if you don't choose to let the guy "have" your Applin.

[Zmagoslav]

Uh, what.

There's always dialogue choices mind you, but there's the entire Applin evolution mini-event that can be completely missed if you don't choose to let the guy "have" your Applin.

If you call those choices or impactfull then i can't help but feel bad for you.
The most impactful choice thus far in pokemon games has been in XY where you are asked which nickname your rivals should use for you... everything else is very much meaningless outside of a line or 2 following directly afterwards.

[Jester Joe]

If you call those choices or impactfull then i can't help but feel bad for you.
The most impactful choice thus far in pokemon games has been in XY where you are asked which nickname your rivals should use for you... everything else is very much meaningless outside of a line or 2 following directly afterwards.

Can we for the love of god stop with the strawmanning for once, like in general.

Recap this conversation.

Thinking about, iam fine with the character not talking but i would like to see some choices in the pokemon game, like big ones that could affect the outcome or small events considerable

No choices in any of the games.

Which is flat out wrong.

There's choices. Your starter is an obvious one. The Applin event is another, you can completely miss it by turning down the character.

There's literally an entire DLC about making a choice for your Kubfu and what evolution you get. And the same for the Horse legendary in The Crown Tundra.

Not only did you attempt an awkward strawman by suddenly saying "impactful" when I didn't say anything of the sort, but your idea that rival name is the "biggest choice" is flat out wrong.

[Lahis]

There's choices. Your starter is an obvious one. The Applin event is another, you can completely miss it by turning down the character.

You can pick those apples in the Wild Area, so passing that event has no meaning.

[Jester Joe]

You can pick those apples in the Wild Area, so passing that event has no meaning.

After you beat over half of the game, as compared to getting it near the start.

That's a huge difference and you know it. On top of that, the criteria wasn't "You can't get it any other way!", it was decisions affected events.

Since it has to be repeated a dozen times apparently, you won't ever see the Applin event UNTIL you make the choice to.


On top of that, it's really telling that you cut out like 80% of my post JUST to focus on a single thing. The point still stands, there's plenty of choices to be made in a Pokemon game.

[Lahis]

On top of that, it's really telling that you cut out like 80% of my post JUST to focus on a single thing. The point still stands, there's plenty of choices to be made in a Pokemon game.

Quoting whole wall of text when you reply to just part of it is just plain stupid.

[Darththeo]

After you beat over half of the game, as compared to getting it near the start.

That's a huge difference and you know it. On top of that, the criteria wasn't "You can't get it any other way!", it was decisions affected events.

Since it has to be repeated a dozen times apparently, you won't ever see the Applin event UNTIL you make the choice to.


On top of that, it's really telling that you cut out like 80% of my post JUST to focus on a single thing. The point still stands, there's plenty of choices to be made in a Pokemon game.

Well, you cannot get into Hammerlocke until you have 3 badges, that's midgame.

As opposed to getting access after 6 badges (when you get the bike on water).

What is funny is you two are arguing about choices in pokemon games and literally, none are really all that meaningful ever. So, if we are talking about meaingful choices in pokemon, your examples should count. If we are talking meaningful choices in video games, Pokemon literally has never had those.

[Jester Joe]

Well, you cannot get into Hammerlocke until you have 3 badges, that's midgame.

As opposed to getting access after 6 badges (when you get the bike on water).

What is funny is you two are arguing about choices in pokemon games and literally, none are really all that meaningful ever. So, if we are talking about meaingful choices in pokemon, your examples should count. If we are talking meaningful choices in video games, Pokemon literally has never had those.

I never said what degree of choices there are though.
Just that choices do exist, and some do make a difference or are events you won't see play out otherwise.

As opposed to Lahis saying that there's none at all, which is just wrong

[Darththeo]

I never said what degree of choices there are though.
Just that choices do exist, and some do make a difference or are events you won't see play out otherwise.

As opposed to Lahis saying that there's none at all, which is just wrong

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them to admit they are wrong. They still don't understand what the Lack of a National Dex actually means for the games, despite Sword and Shield literally giving us proof of what they meant.

Anyway, you are correct, all pokemon games have choice in them. Some more or less than others. However, Lahis is appears to be arguing for "true" or "significant" choice which is arbitrary unless you are talking about meaningful choices, which can be argued don't really exist in video games with a set ending like Pokemon is.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

If they were implemented in a way that wouldn't pander to specific fan-favorites only i'd be a fan of megas.

Ah yes, who could forget such fan favourites as Audino, Camerupt, and Abomasnow. Naturally they were chosen over those nobody likes, such as Pikachu, Togekiss and Dragonite.

[Syegfryed]

If you call those choices or impactfull then i can't help but feel bad for you.
The most impactful choice thus far in pokemon games has been in XY where you are asked which nickname your rivals should use for you... everything else is very much meaningless outside of a line or 2 following directly afterwards.

the most impactful choice i remember doing in a pokemon was choosing either hitmonchan or hitmonlee and lations/latias, but again, I didn't finish X/y yet

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Ah yes, who could forget such fan favourites as Audino, Camerupt, and Abomasnow. Naturally they were chosen over those nobody likes, such as Pikachu, Togekiss and Dragonite.

well, people do like camerupt and abomasnow...

funny thing is how they still suck and lose space to the OP ones.

Can't get a mega from a pokemon who is not even in his full stage too.

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Recap this conversation.

well, i meant story decisions, that affect events in the game story considerable, not just a gameplay choice, like if you either capture or just defeat a legendary, it may have 2 different branches in the story, not necessary big, I don't think there is rly any of that kind, like, we became champion and nobody gives a shit or even recognize you as such around the world, but i didn't finish x/y neither sword and shield to know if they have those things there

[Lahis]

Can't get a mega from a pokemon who is not even in his full stage too.

If they hadn't abandoned mega evolution already, they should just give Pikachu a mega. That would mean that #1 NFEs could get megas and #2 less than third stage mons with mega could still get regular evolution too.

[Syegfryed]

If they hadn't abandoned mega evolution already, they should just give Pikachu a mega. That would mean that #1 NFEs could get megas and #2 less than third stage mons with mega could still get regular evolution too.

the point of mega was supposed to be evolution "above" evolution, kind of thing, it would not make much sense to give as pokemons who are not fully developed/grow up and would be too much digimon(if it was not already) imo.