Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[shoc]

Holy shit, dangling tentacle beards in all shapes and sizes with co .. jewelry etc, I like it.

Dreanei nabs got nothing on those.

Just makes me wish that we got Void Krokul and Lightforged Elves instead.

[Varx]

So is this a void elf thread or high elf thread now?

Also black hair, blond hair, blue hair, a velf is a velf. Source: your velf racials lmao

[FossilFree]

So is this a void elf thread or high elf thread now?

Also black hair, blond hair, blue hair, a velf is a velf. Source: your velf racials lmao

Void Elves are High Elves, same with Blood Elves. So this is basically the Void/Blood/High Elf thread now.

[Varx]

Void Elves are High Elves, same with Blood Elves. So this is basically the Void/Blood/High Elf thread now.

So high elf = thalassian elf, cuz velves sure as hell aren't belves.

Also if blood elves are high elves why does this thread exist in the first place then?

[Kyriani]

So high elf = thalassian elf, cuz velves sure as hell aren't belves.

Also if blood elves are high elves why does this thread exist in the first place then?

This thread originally existed as the place for all things High Elf related to be discussed. It has evolved since the addition of Void Elves as the playable Thalassian race on the Alliance faction.

And not for nothing, prior to Nether-Prince Durzaan's trap, Magister Umbric and every elf in his entourage were Blood Elves. The fact that there are Silvermoon Scholars and High Elf Wayfarers in Telogrus implies that both Blood Elves and High Elves are joining the ranks of the Ren'dorei. Unfortunately Blizzard hasn't deigned to elaborate on just why and how they are becoming Void Elves. It'd be nice if they did give us those basic details.

In any case, there always seems to be some misunderstanding (sometimes intentional), about what someone means when they say "High Elf". Every Blood Elf is a High Elf in the sense that this is their race and they simply changed their name to honor their fallen kin, but not every High Elf renamed themselves a Blood Elf, nor joined the Horde. Typically in these discussions, when someone is talking about "High Elves" they are talking about those elves that refused to call themselves Blood Elves and also chose to remain part of the Alliance.

At the most basic level (race), all Thalassians are High Elves. The differentiation comes from political ideology, faction affiliation, and/or magical circumstances. It's best to use "Alliance High Elf" when you are talking about those High Elves that are part of the Alliance such as the Silver Covenant NPC's or the various High Elf NPC's in Stormwind. In the most basic sense, these are not playable currently, but due to their presence in Telogrus implying that High Elf Wayfarers are joining the Ren'dorei, it's not unfair to say that at least some Void Elves literally are Alliance High Elves. By the same token it's also not unfair to say that at least some Void Elves are Blood Elves, as implied by the presence of Silvermoon Scholars in Telogrus, and the fact that Umbric and his entourage originated as Blood Elves.

Obviously, the playable Horde Blood Elves, and NPC Alliance High Elves are physiologically and magically the same race. Their distinction from each other comes from political ideology and faction affiliation. The playable Alliance Void Elves can share political ideology with either Blood or High (though I would posit that their ideology would have to shift somewhat to "meet in the middle" with their fellows to sustain harmony), but their faction affiliation is clearly Alliance, and their magical circumstances are uniquely tied to the void.

But in the words of game director Ion Hazikostas:

Blood Elves are pretty much High Elves... Void Elves are also pretty much another flavor of High Elves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BsxB4NJIBs

[Varx]

This thread originally existed as the place for all things High Elf related to be discussed. It has evolved since the addition of Void Elves as the playable Thalassian race on the Alliance faction.

And not for nothing, prior to Nether-Prince Durzaan's trap, Magister Umbric and every elf in his entourage were Blood Elves. The fact that there are Silvermoon Scholars and High Elf Wayfarers in Telogrus implies that both Blood Elves and High Elves are joining the ranks of the Ren'dorei. Unfortunately Blizzard hasn't deigned to elaborate on just why and how they are becoming Void Elves. It'd be nice if they did give us those basic details.

In any case, there always seems to be some misunderstanding (sometimes intentional), about what someone means when they say "High Elf". Every Blood Elf is a High Elf in the sense that this is their race and they simply changed their name to honor their fallen kin, but not every High Elf renamed themselves a Blood Elf, nor joined the Horde. Typically in these discussions, when someone is talking about "High Elves" they are talking about those elves that refused to call themselves Blood Elves and also chose to remain part of the Alliance.

At the most basic level (race), all Thalassians are High Elves. The differentiation comes from political ideology, faction affiliation, and/or magical circumstances. It's best to use "Alliance High Elf" when you are talking about those High Elves that are part of the Alliance such as the Silver Covenant NPC's or the various High Elf NPC's in Stormwind. In the most basic sense, these are not playable currently, but due to their presence in Telogrus implying that High Elf Wayfarers are joining the Ren'dorei, it's not unfair to say that at least some Void Elves literally are Alliance High Elves. By the same token it's also not unfair to say that at least some Void Elves are Blood Elves, as implied by the presence of Silvermoon Scholars in Telogrus, and the fact that Umbric and his entourage originated as Blood Elves.

Obviously, the playable Horde Blood Elves, and NPC Alliance High Elves are physiologically and magically the same race. Their distinction from each other comes from political ideology and faction affiliation. The playable Alliance Void Elves can share political ideology with either Blood or High (though I would posit that their ideology would have to shift somewhat to "meet in the middle" with their fellows to sustain harmony), but their faction affiliation is clearly Alliance, and their magical circumstances are uniquely tied to the void.

But in the words of game director Ion Hazikostas:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BsxB4NJIBs

Well if velves are a different flavor, why ask for the same hair colors that belves have. That would pretty much complete remove the already blurry line of distinction between the two.

If belves get more options then they should highlight the VOID in Void elf not more normal options.

[PsychoSe7eN]

If you want to play high elf, go play WC3R.

High Elves are no longer welcomed in the World.....


Of Warcraft

[Kyriani]

Well if velves are a different flavor, why ask for the same hair colors that belves have. That would pretty much complete remove the already blurry line of distinction between the two.

If belves get more options then they should highlight the VOID in Void elf not more normal options.

Well for me personally, I want black hair, specifically because my character concept always called for it, but also because it never made sense to me that void elves didn't have black as a hair color option (and white too for that matter).

For other people, particularly those that have been campaigning for playable alliance high elves, void elves were a perversion of that request. Basically a corrupt-a-wish. No one ever asked for void elves to be a playable option because void elves didn't exist prior to allied races being added to the game (and more specifically don't exist until their unlock scenario), whereas the highmountain, nightborne, and lightforged did, and had foundational elements laid prior to allied races ever being a thing.

Since Blizzard added the blue eyes and broad range of skin options to void elves, and billed these as "high elf customization", the only thing left to finish the high elf aesthetic is a few natural hair color options. This is asked for by those seeking playable alliance high elves and also by those who just want a bigger range of colors for their their hair. The current hair palette is very "one-note" and more variety is desirable by many. Since alliance high elves as their own race is unlikely to ever happen since void elves exist and have high elf customization options, those seeking alliance high elves are simply trying to finish that aesthetic. And other players, such as myself, simply want more variety (and specifically black in my case).

Like it or not, Blizz basically set a precedent that high elf customization options are part of the void elf package when they added "high elf customization" to void elves, and asking for the last bit to finish the aesthetic is well within reason (and I agree with this). Blizzard also doesn't have to copy and paste all the blood elf hairstyles and colors to fulfill that request either. If Blizzard wants to add more hairstyles, they can make new ones or simply port styles from other alliance races. If Blizzard wants to make certain the void aesthetic is always an option they can turn the hair tentacles into a toggle like the night elf hair vines so that all void elf hairstyles can have tentacles if the player wants them to. And as for hair colors Blizzard could add a few token colors in the human range to basically fulfill the request.

This picture is one I like to reference. It adds options, both for the void aesthetic, and options that can also fulfill the high elf aesthetic, all without copying stuff from blood elves:

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Also if blood elves are high elves why does this thread exist in the first place then?

*sigh* because there are still major ideological and political differences between High Elves and Blood Elves... as it has always been the case.

How is it STILL so hard to get after all these years?

Like this is basic stuff dude, it's not funny to pretend ignorance at this point, as if you hadn't been on this thread before.

We are on the point of the discussion between the fluidity of High Elf and Void Elves as groups of identity, their overlap and what it could mean to their future as a group of te alliance, are you are still on the BS of "hurr durr high elves and blood elves are the same, no?" unable to absorb any nuance.

[Rhlor]

Just makes me wish that we got Void Krokul and Lightforged Elves instead.

lightforged elves!!!!

[Varx]

*sigh* because there are still major ideological and political differences between High Elves and Blood Elves... as it has always been the case.

How is it STILL so hard to get after all these years?

Like this is basic stuff dude, it's not funny to pretend ignorance at this point, as if you hadn't been on this thread before.

We are on the point of the discussion between the fluidity of High Elf and Void Elves as groups of identity, their overlap and what it could mean to their future as a group of te alliance, are you are still on the BS of "hurr durr high elves and blood elves are the same, no?" unable to absorb any nuance.

Because RP ideologies alone don't make a playable race and sure as hell do not justify copy pasting a horde race to alliance.

Other wise we'd have regular kt humans right now or regular gilneans or alliance grim totem.

[Kyriani]

Because RP ideologies alone don't make a playable race and sure as hell do not justify copy pasting a horde race to alliance.

Other wise we'd have regular kt humans right now or regular gilneans or alliance grim totem.

Well if we go back in time before void elves were a thing, players asking for playable alliance high elves did suggest a new model, new hairstyles, and all sorts of things to differentiate them from blood elves. Those ideas were shot down by both players opposing alliance high elves in any form, and by Blizzard themselves when they added void elves.

In Blizzard's defense, void elves required a lot less effort than making a brand new character model would have taken, and at the time, for some reason Blizzard thought the model was all people asking for alliance high elves really wanted. So in a failed attempt to quell the constant requests for alliance high elves, void elves were pulled out of someone's ass by slapping a blue coat of paint on to the blood elf model.

Obviously that didn't quell the requests. So with Shadowlands, Blizzard specifically added what they themselves called "high elf customization" to void elves, and almost had the request filled... almost.

If we learned anything from this melodrama playing out, it's that if you're looking for a specific race, or specific set of options to portray said race, all you have to do is spend 16 years badgering the devs for them... and they will still fall short of what you want. Then you badger the devs over the next two years to give you the last options necessary to finish the aesthetic you're looking for in the next expansion.

I would also not be surprised if at some point in the future (couldn't say when), Blizzard gave kul tirans the option to use the stormwind human models (and possibly allow stormwind humans to use the fat kul tiran models). RP ideologies may not make a playable race but they do have some influence on the devs design decisions as indicated by high elf customization for void elves, wildhammer customization for dwarves, sandfury customization for trolls, etc.

[shoc]

lightforged elves!!!!

Hey, it's just as significant a change as the Lightforged are to the Draenei.

[Ardenaso]

if Vereesa had Garrosh killed do you think none of these would have happened at all?

[Varx]

Well if we go back in time before void elves were a thing, players asking for playable alliance high elves did suggest a new model, new hairstyles, and all sorts of things to differentiate them from blood elves. Those ideas were shot down by both players opposing alliance high elves in any form, and by Blizzard themselves when they added void elves.

In Blizzard's defense, void elves required a lot less effort than making a brand new character model would have taken, and at the time, for some reason Blizzard thought the model was all people asking for alliance high elves really wanted. So in a failed attempt to quell the constant requests for alliance high elves, void elves were pulled out of someone's ass by slapping a blue coat of paint on to the blood elf model.

Obviously that didn't quell the requests. So with Shadowlands, Blizzard specifically added what they themselves called "high elf customization" to void elves, and almost had the request filled... almost.

If we learned anything from this melodrama playing out, it's that if you're looking for a specific race, or specific set of options to portray said race, all you have to do is spend 16 years badgering the devs for them... and they will still fall short of what you want. Then you badger the devs over the next two years to give you the last options necessary to finish the aesthetic you're looking for in the next expansion.

I would also not be surprised if at some point in the future (couldn't say when), Blizzard gave kul tirans the option to use the stormwind human models (and possibly allow stormwind humans to use the fat kul tiran models). RP ideologies may not make a playable race but they do have some influence on the devs design decisions as indicated by high elf customization for void elves, wildhammer customization for dwarves, sandfury customization for trolls, etc.

And this stems from the fact helfers just wanted the belves as alliance since the model was so damn popular. Having alliance helves existing in the lore and in game NPCs only added fuel to the fire.

I don't buy the whole, "oh it's not about the model" that's BS.

How do I know? Because now that velves get fair skin options all is well. Now all they need is regular hair. Despite the fact that a velf will always be a velf unlike how a belf is more in line with the actual helf fantasy now. So yeah it's all about the model.

Helfers just don't wanna play horde side because of mudhuts and green people. I know because I used to feel the exact same way when I played a belf in TBC and I discovered helves were a thing.

Helfers used to not be happy with the fact that there were helves in the velf zone but NOW that u get pale velves it's magically okay. Please...

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Because RP ideologies alone don't make a playable race and sure as hell do not justify copy pasting a horde race to alliance.

Other wise we'd have regular kt humans right now or regular gilneans or alliance grim totem.

And why not? Why is a world predicating into the conflict between two superpowers artificially segregated by "race"? THAT is what makes no sense, and it couldn't be more evident when you have Pandaren in both factions, and groups like High Elves and Kul Tiran crossing the faction divide.

The racial divide is a gameplay constraint, not a lore one; let stop pretending it's intrinsic to the setting when it's constantly contested by the narrative itself. Instead of denying a fact of the universe because of the current gameplay choice, it would be better to suitable fit the gameplay to reflect the in-universe, and you can do that in a way that faction choice still remains meaningful without forcing a race segregation that is not reflective of the lore.

- - - Updated - - -

And this stems from the fact helfers just wanted the belves as alliance since the model was so damn popular. Having alliance helves existing in the lore and in game NPCs only added fuel to the fire.

I don't buy the whole, "oh it's not about the model" that's BS.

How do I know? Because now that velves get fair skin options all is well. Now all they need is regular hair. Despite the fact that a velf will always be a velf unlike how a belf is more in line with the actual helf fantasy now. So yeah it's all about the model.

Helfers just don't wanna play horde side because of mudhuts and green people. I know because I used to feel the exact same way when I played a belf in TBC and I discovered helves were a thing.

Helfers used to not be happy with the fact that there were helves in the velf zone but NOW that u get pale velves it's magically okay. Please...

And now you are making a generalization based on your own, limited experience, saying everyone that doesn't fit that view must be lying. Disregarding the fact that many of us play both factions and like Blood Elves as well.

How can you even pretend to be "part of a discussion" when you simply decide other people must be lying if it doesn't fit your narrative? And you are not new to this thread, yet even after all this time you still hold that view -that others MUST be disingenuous on their views because you they don't suit you- That's not having the bare minimum of respect for other people; not because you don't agree with them, but because they must be lying if they don't think like you.

Unbelievable.

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Hey, it's just as significant a change as the Lightforged are to the Draenei.

Do you realize that's not a good thing, right?

[shoc]

And why not? Why is a world predicating into the conflict between two superpowers artificially segregated by "race"? THAT is what makes no sense, and it couldn't be more evident when you have Pandaren in both factions, and groups like High Elves and Kul Tiran crossing the faction divide.

The racial divide is a gameplay constraint, not a lore one; let stop pretending it's intrinsic to the setting when it's constantly contested by the narrative itself. Instead of denying a fact of the universe because of the current gameplay choice, it would be better to suitable fit the gameplay to reflect the in-universe, and you can do that in a way that faction choice still remains meaningful without forcing a race segregation that is not reflective of the lore.

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And now you are making a generalization based on your own, limited experience, saying everyone that doesn't fit that view must be lying. Disregarding the fact that many of us play both factions and like Blood Elves as well.

How can you even pretend to be "part of a discussion" when you simply decide other people must be lying if it doesn't fit your narrative? And you are not new to this thread, yet even after all this time you still hold that view -that others MUST be disingenuous on their views because you they don't suit you- That's not having the bare minimum of respect for other people; not because you don't agree with them, but because they must be lying if they don't think like you.

Unbelievable.

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Do you realize that's not a good thing, right?

Remind me to mark all my posts with /s, I underestimated the intelligence of this thread

[Varx]

And why not? Why is a world predicating into the conflict between two superpowers artificially segregated by "race"? THAT is what makes no sense, and it couldn't be more evident when you have Pandaren in both factions, and groups like High Elves and Kul Tiran crossing the faction divide.

The racial divide is a gameplay constraint, not a lore one; let stop pretending it's intrinsic to the setting when it's constantly contested by the narrative itself. Instead of denying a fact of the universe because of the current gameplay choice, it would be better to suitable fit the gameplay to reflect the in-universe, and you can do that in a way that faction choice still remains meaningful without forcing a race segregation that is not reflective of the lore.

- - - Updated - - -



And now you are making a generalization based on your own, limited experience, saying everyone that doesn't fit that view must be lying. Disregarding the fact that many of us play both factions and like Blood Elves as well.

How can you even pretend to be "part of a discussion" when you simply decide other people must be lying if it doesn't fit your narrative? And you are not new to this thread, yet even after all this time you still hold that view -that others MUST be disingenuous on their views because you they don't suit you- That's not having the bare minimum of respect for other people; not because you don't agree with them, but because they must be lying if they don't think like you.

Unbelievable.

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Do you realize that's not a good thing, right?

It's not just what I've experienced it's also the behavior I've witnessed from other helfers particularly this thread. When velves were first announced there was nothing but hate from helfers even after high elves were proven to be among them in the rift. But NOW and only NOW it's okay after pale options, come on man...


Also, it's a freaking game. It's unrealistic that all universe aspects of the wow universe should apply to gameplay aspects. We'd then have hundreds of races with their own racials and what not It's unrealistic.

Also don't use pandas in your argument. They were introduced as neutral, not helves.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Remind me to mark all my posts with /s, I underestimated the intelligence of this thread

Satire requires clarity of intent. Specially when things you say in frankness are already highly suspect.

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It's not just what I've experienced it's also the behavior I've witnessed from other helfers particularly this thread. When velves were first announced there was nothing but hate from helfers even after high elves were proven to be among them in the rift. But NOW and only NOW it's okay after pale options, come on man...

That's just... not accurate; a lot of us have been pushing for the unification fo Void Elves and High Elves since day one, hoping VE's would have been made out of High Elves -like Alleria- and serve as the de facto continuation. A lot of people hated VE's because they were Blood Elves when they could have been High Elves. You are taking a misrepresentation of the facts and spinning them to fit the narrative you prefer.

You are simply taking one aspect, one opinion, and making a generalization. How is that accurate or fair?

Also, it's a freaking game. It's unrealistic that all universe aspects of the wow universe should apply to gameplay aspects. We'd then have hundreds of races with their own racials and what not It's unrealistic.

Also don't use pandas in your argument. They were introduced as neutral, not helves.

What does it matter that Pandaren were introduced as neutral when my point is that the gameplay is not reflective of the lore? Are you getting the point?

The point is that gameplay racial segregation is a hindrance to the lore and is not reflective of it. That pandaren exist exactly the same in both factions proves there are no actual practical downsides.

When the point is to literally create a player segregation that serves no practical purpose beyond... forced segregation, that's very open to criticism.

[Varx]

Satire requires clarity of intent. Specially when things you say in frankness are already highly suspect.

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That's just... not accurate; a lot of us have been pushing for the unification fo Void Elves and High Elves since day one, hoping VE's would have been made out of High Elves -like Alleria- and serve as the de facto continuation. A lot of people hated VE's because they were Blood Elves when they could have been High Elves. You are taking a misrepresentation of the facts and spinning them to fit the narrative you prefer.

You are simply taking one aspect, one opinion, and making a generalization. How is that accurate or fair?




What does it matter that Pandaren were introduced as neutral when my point is that the gameplay is not reflective of the lore? Are you getting the point?

Well if you were part of that group then great. You saying you don't mind purple only velves if they were helves to begin with and not exiled belves?

Also just because playable helves aren't real doesn't mean gameplay doesn't reflect lore. There are more normal kt humans than fat and yet fat are the only option for players. Why? Because the normal model already exists and it'd be redundant from a gameplay perspective if normal kt humans were available.

The faction divide is at the core of warcraft and is precedent over lore shenanigans. You don't need helves to push the lore narrative anyway. They just need to exist.