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  1. #281
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    You kind of have it without a timer now. I mean, the difference between timing it or not is the new key level and 1 piece of loot. Sure you WANT to time it but if you don't it's not really the end of the world if you're in a guild group etc. PUGging? /shrug

  2. #282
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    The timer adds undo stress and reinforces this "GOGOGOGO" attitude that then seeps into all other aspects of this game, like in normal/heroic dungeons or leveling dungeons. You get an alt in freaking Maraudon with a bunch of new players who'd never been here before trying to pull like it's a +15, but with characters that have a fourth of their abilities available.

    While I don't agree that the M+ timer should be removed, I do agree that the attitudes of M+ players seep into other content. That rushing, elitist attitude does not belong in any form of leveling dungeons (unless you're in a 5 man friend group, for example) and the attitudes that come with it are unwarranted outside of that content.


    I play with a couple of guildies who think whatever content they do, that isn't pushing high M+ keys or doing arena at 2200+ rating, warrants having those respective attitudes.
    Wanting to vote kick a tank in a leveling Plaguefall dungeon because he didn't skip the trash in the middle or skip the first slime tentacle area, for example. For freaking out and saying that tank is utterly trash because "he chose to tank, he needs to know these common skips/practices" and "has no business tanking" as if the whole aspect of "learning" doesn't exist anymore.


    AND while they may have some truth to it at higher levels of difficulty why would they expect peak performance anywhere other than that higher level of difficulty content?
    Last edited by KOUNTERPARTS; 2021-03-08 at 10:08 PM.

  3. #283
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    2 tank 2 healer comp, yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaah

    /s

    nope thanks, stupid idea
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    except if its a healer dc and you fail the run to one wipe
    You mean like missing the timer because a healer dcd?

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You mean like missing the timer because a healer dcd?
    Lol at quoting out of context for a convo months ago. Grats

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Lol at quoting out of context for a convo months ago. Grats
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Yes. I would go with a shared death pool myself. This would encourage a slower CC-based option on tougher pulls. Personally, I think it should be somthing like..

    5 or less deaths - +3
    10 or less deaths - +2
    20 or less deaths - +1
    Anything above that is failure. So 1 total party kill, 2 TPK, and 4 TPKs are the marks for success or failure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It would also allow for things like DCs, AFKs, ect without impacting the group overall.
    This is what you were responding to.

    There, thats the context - please explain how that changes anything, or how anything has changed since you posted it (which has been almost exactly 1 month, hardly "months ago".

  7. #287
    Yes... I'd like to be able to push my skill level, rather than just try and blast through stuff.

    Before patch 9.0.5 I was able to do that - after 9.0.5. that is no longer possible.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  8. #288
    Scarab Lord
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    I wish it was just a buff/debuff instead of a huge clock taking up screen real-estate and stressing me out from not being able to play without looking at it count down constantly - to me it's not the same at all compared to challenge timers from older content like execution timers and what not. It's also lazy not to ask for no death runs as you just end up with a bunch of NEs shadowmelding and ressing the tank to do skips or something similar both in and outside of tourneys.

    Make deaths way more punishing and make timer way more obscure imo. Even let players turn off timer from the get go- thereby forfeiting any rewards from potentially timing the run -and come up with something better than these silly affix rotations and random keys with arbitrary levels that reek of player retention mechanics and MAU-shenanigans. Just let tyrannical and fortified be baseline and let players choose their keys and levels with a vendor like on ptr.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2021-03-09 at 02:12 AM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Yes... I'd like to be able to push my skill level, rather than just try and blast through stuff.

    Before patch 9.0.5 I was able to do that - after 9.0.5. that is no longer possible.
    But the timer is effectively the same as an enrage for a raid boss. It's there to stop people from using gimmicky cheeses that have the opposite effect that you're expecting. Dungeons would start taking hours or even days to complete, the limiting factor would be time.

    Removing the timer makes things more difficult for the wrong reasons, the timer forces you to not just CC 4/5 mobs and gradually kite the remaining mob with 52 trillion health across the instance for 3 hours.

  10. #290
    Maybe they should increase the timer but significantly increase the penalty for death. Instead of -5 seconds per death, maybe make it -30 seconds per death

    If they add 5 mins or so to every timer, it'll decrease the zergfest mentality and increase how some groups run the dungeon

  11. #291
    time is the only thing that creates difficulty; the game has a lot of ways of using time (raid enrage timers, healer mana usage, keystone timers) but ultimately the difficulty always comes from time forcing you to weigh actions against each other

    if you remove the timer in m+ you'd see a lot of degenerate shit, like groups of three tanks and two healers.

    I do wish they'd design around a lot of the more esoteric skip strategies though (probably invis pots and shroud just shouldn't exist)

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    But the timer is effectively the same as an enrage for a raid boss.
    Only if when you enrage on Mythic, you are forced to do it in Heroic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Dungeons would start taking hours or even days to complete, the limiting factor would be time.
    They don't have to be longer, they just have to allow you to try a specific level again and again... that's the bit you can't do.

    I'm fine doing 9s, but want to do 10s to get practice on the new affix... but I can't.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Well sure they can, but I don't think that matters to them. It's clear that they like difficult dungeons, but dislike being basically compelled to move as quickly as possible. Not because it's explicitly required by the content itself, but by the community of people that do Mythic+ often. I get it. For example, I like raids, but I dislike the community that does them because they're often anal, anti-social narcissists. I think what they're asking for isn't really possible, but I understand where they're coming from.
    For me the main problem with the timer is that you essentially need to know everything about the dungeon before you even look for a group for it, especially for someone like me that plays a tank. There is a tiny window of opportunity to learn the dungeons (and we are talking 8-10 dungeons!) in the first couple of weeks and after that the expectation is that a tank knows everything. You cannot talk routes with your group, cannot take a bit of time to assign CC, cannot discuss strategy for the next pull. You all need to know what is expected to you for the next 30 minutes before that key starts. I prefer strategy to be discussed right before each pull and for everyone to have their time to do it than memorizing massive guides or having to move to forums to discuss things (because you will need to be able to pull up data constantly to talk about each individual pull instead of actually having it visually there).

    Compare that to a raid where outside of world first groups you are expected to have a good idea of what happens for your role, don't really care about trash and only have to really study boss strats slowly (2-3 bosses per week)

    And ofc there is the issue that I've grown older and interruptions are just more common in my life.
    Last edited by Araevin; 2021-03-09 at 11:35 AM.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    I would prefer to see a more performance based M+ system rather than a time based one. The timer adds undo stress and reinforces this "GOGOGOGO" attitude that then seeps into all other aspects of this game, like in normal/heroic dungeons or leveling dungeons. You get an alt in freaking Maraudon with a bunch of new players who'd never been here before trying to pull like it's a +15, but with characters that have a fourth of their abilities available.

    On one hand, I hated Heroic Shattered Halls because I hated stopping to plan out CC for every stupid pull in that place. But I don't think swinging entirely to the other end of the spectrum of AOE+GOGOGO was the right answer either.
    Thing is that SH will be the same - bunch of people run in, they know what needs controlling and will do the same as people do in M+. I don't need to ask people to CC, we just do it.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    I would prefer to see a more performance based M+ system rather than a time based one. The timer adds undo stress and reinforces this "GOGOGOGO" attitude that then seeps into all other aspects of this game, like in normal/heroic dungeons or leveling dungeons. You get an alt in freaking Maraudon with a bunch of new players who'd never been here before trying to pull like it's a +15, but with characters that have a fourth of their abilities available.

    On one hand, I hated Heroic Shattered Halls because I hated stopping to plan out CC for every stupid pull in that place. But I don't think swinging entirely to the other end of the spectrum of AOE+GOGOGO was the right answer either.
    It's currently a performance based AND time based one, which is something WoW dungeons had never really been until the addition of CM/M+. Taking one of those elements out of it drastically lowers the skill ceiling & impacts the fun for a lot of people who find enjoyment in the challenge. I understand people at the other end of the spectrum find it overly difficult & punishing, but that's what levels are for. Maybe they can't do 10s, but they can probably do 5s.

    The gogogogogo mentality has been around since at least WotLK as well. It's not something I'd blame entirely on M+, although I would agree M+ has hardly made it any better.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Only if when you enrage on Mythic, you are forced to do it in Heroic.



    They don't have to be longer, they just have to allow you to try a specific level again and again... that's the bit you can't do.

    I'm fine doing 9s, but want to do 10s to get practice on the new affix... but I can't.
    If the idea is to be able to try again like in a raid, I assume you also want it to be like a raid then and a failed run (equivalent to a wipe) gives no loot and no great vault credit?

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    If the idea is to be able to try again like in a raid, I assume you also want it to be like a raid then and a failed run (equivalent to a wipe) gives no loot and no great vault credit?
    I'm pretty sure if you fail a boss in a raid, you still get the loot from the other bosses and still get vault credit for how far you got.

    But for M+ - a failed run doesn't give you any reward, it is only when you miss the timer you get a reward.

    What I want to be able to do is push myself to do the highest key I can do. For me that is under 15, but above 10... but this week I'm doing 8 or 9 keys, then next week 7 or 8 keys.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    I'm pretty sure if you fail a boss in a raid, you still get the loot from the other bosses and still get vault credit for how far you got.

    But for M+ - a failed run doesn't give you any reward, it is only when you miss the timer you get a reward.

    What I want to be able to do is push myself to do the highest key I can do. For me that is under 15, but above 10... but this week I'm doing 8 or 9 keys, then next week 7 or 8 keys.
    If you can't time an 8 or 9 then your key will go down next week. How can you then say that you can do more than an 8 or 9?

    I mean it is very simple: If you time a 9 then it will turn in to a 10 and if you time a 10 it will turn in to an 11.
    How on earth can you say that you can do more than a M10 if you can't even time a 9???

  19. #299
    No. It would've been a total disaster. Like people wiping hundred of times because they lack gear/skill just to finish their weeklies.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    Personally, I think so. Removing the timer would do a lot of things. It would turn M+ into an actual ladder system instead of a race of "Who has the best meta". Even D3's rift system that has a timer is superior to Mythic +. Not only would it slow things down and turn it into more strategy then an aoe race fest, but it would also open the doors to more classes. Right now the meta is always who has the best utility and mobility. Warlock has amazing dmg especially at higher keys where the dots can tick, but garbage in M+ cause they don't bring enough to benefit the timer for example.

    Without the timer Blizzard would be able to hard tune the dngs that makes it easier to bring all specs/classes. Think of Torghast, no timer. You take your time, plan a strategy and go for it. You can bring any spec and class. M+ should be what Torghast is, it's supposed to be fun. if you really think about removing the timer could actually make it harder, right now they have to tune the dngs so people can clear them within time. Remove the timer and they could make harder pulls that prevent mass aoe and slows things down. Which opens up the dng to more specs/classes. It also brings more challenge so the "try hards" get what they want, and the those who don't play a desired class get what they want.
    There's no such thing as killing the meta. There's always going to be cutting edge specs which the top players play and people will follow. If there's a difficulty/problem, people will always choose the best solution they can. Right now the current meta favoring mage/boomie as DPS comes down to utility suited for this season's affixt. As such, I'd wager they're not chosen "for the timer" at all, quite the contrary, major advantage boomies bring into the keys is the treants for instance. People would still play boomies over warlocks whether there was a timer or not.

    Analogy to Torghast suffers a bit, it's practically solo content which doesn't scale indefinitely. Any competitive content has to have a different mindset when designing it as if the content fails to deliver for the cutting edge pushers, it will fail for the rest of the players as well. You cannot design a dungeon where you could spend hours or days performing your best run.

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