valor for casual

[Tradu]

Q. So how does a casual obtain high end gear?
A. Before 9.0.5 - by doing their M10 key each week and waiting for the vault each week.
A. After 9.0.5 - they can't.

By doing high end content that justifies high end gear. Also what makes you think anything changed in 9.0.5? You literally got an additional way to get gear, nothing was lost.

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Not any more, last week I got 10+ gear, next week 9+, next week 8+ etc...

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The key deteriorates over time. That's what has changed.

Just time the key? Then it doesn't deteriorate at all. And if you deplete the key, you only lose 1 level per week, which you can compensate for by playing an extra key after leveling it up. If you time the key, nothing changes(if anything you gain an extra key level). If you keep depleting every week, yes, your key will deteriorate over time. Luckily your own key isn't the only one that exists.

[Kolvarg]

Honest question, if you don't want to do m+, raids, or arena then what do you need gear for? You can clear layer 8 Torghast at 190 ilvl on every class, you can do world quests and the world boss without any gear on.

Gear only exists to help you complete your objectives, if your only objective is to farm transmog or do world quests then you don't need gear. If you're trying to raid mythic, do +15 keys, or get Gladiator then you need gear, which is why those activities all reward gear.

That's like saying you don't really need a microwave because you can just start a fire to warm up your food. Sure, all you need is some wood and some matches. But a microwave makes it a lot faster, convenient and pleasant.

Same with gear. You might be able to clear Torghast and world quests with crappy gear. But that doesn't mean that better gear isn't still nice. Gear exists as a reward and the main character power progression mechanism at max level since the start of the game.

It's extra silly when you consider that the things you consider to "require gear" are arbitrarily created by Blizzard.

Also in some cases it's simply not true. The first +15 key was cleared by people in ~183ilvl, therefore M+ gear is redundant.
Mythic was cleared by people in ~220ilvl, less than what Mythic drops, therefore Mythic raiding gear is redundant.
And PvP gear is only necessary as much gear your opponent has. Gear could be completely removed from PvP and it would still work and be competitive.


It's a bullshit gatekeeping argument that just draws a very arbitrary line on what gear is "necessary" or not. Gear is the main endgame reward the game is designed around, therefore it should be rewarded from every endgame activity.

[Tradu]

Then why on earth reward it ?

Valor being a reward from emissaries is pretty weird, yes. You also get plenty of other currencies you can't spend, though, so it's not like it's unique in that regard.

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Then why simultaneously pull the plug out from casual M+ runs ?

With one hand you are saying they are encouraging me to do M+ runs, and with the other hand making it almost impossible to do so.

Are you implying that casuals are incapable of timing the key they get from their weekly chest? The one that was already 1 level below the highest they completed?

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Valor points are only for casual players and alts.

Anyone denying it is delusional about their own skill level. Good players are allready full 226+ gear. It's really that simple.

They're also for targeting M+ trinkets that are way too good, like IQD, EO or Scale. They're also decent for alts. Combining valor, conquest and weekly vaults you can get a full set of pretty good gear quite quickly.

[T-34]

Gear is the main endgame reward the game is designed around, therefore it should be rewarded from every endgame activity.

We couldn't agree more and you do actually get gear from every endgame activity: The more difficult the content the higher the reward is.
"Gate-keeping" is one the most beloved, but also most meaningless, buzzwords used by those that can't accept that they lack the skill to beat content.

[Lahis]

Yes they did ... in 9.0.5 ... been there, said that - ignore reality if you feel that way inclined.

They removed nothing from M+.

They actually made it better since the keystone you get doesn't drop in level anymore.

[Kolvarg]

The more difficult the content the higher the reward is.

Why? You clearly get plenty of self-satisfaction by basking in your own perceived skill, so why do you also need better gear than those who "lack the skill"?

[haiyken]

Valor being a reward from emissaries is pretty weird, yes. You also get plenty of other currencies you can't spend, though, so it's not like it's unique in that regard.

I view this as both an incentive to do callings (and engage with world content for players doing only instanced content) and an incentive for more casual players to get to start doing mythic+ content to spend the Valor.

I know people don't like the fact that the game is designed this way, but it's pretty obvious that the devs create systems that interact with each other this way to incentivise players to do all type of content, thus playing the game longer. It make sense to try to bridge some systems between them, while not making it the only way to play (the fact that calling are not the only and main way to get Valor is a good example of that).

I personally think the Valor system they introduced is a bit unclear if you don't make research on the internet to be sure to understand exactly how it's working and how it's unlocked. I had a few discussions with friends about it and there was a lot of confusion, one of them thinking it was possible to upgrade covenant set items with it (and being disappointed it was not possible). It's a fine fix to this problem, but the fact it's coming this late in the season makes it a bit disappointing, as my group of friends had a good streak of doing m+ for the past months, but our interest is slowing down now, having reach a threshold of what we can do, being stuck around m+5/m+6 right now (with heavy time constraints for some and suboptimal specs/covenant in the mix). I think we would have push harder doing m+ earlier in the expansion with the Valor system in place, and my friends would have kept doing callings and other type of content as well.

[kamuimac]

We couldn't agree more and you do actually get gear from every endgame activity: The more difficult the content the higher the reward is.
"Gate-keeping" is one the most beloved, but also most meaningless, buzzwords used by those that can't accept that they lack the skill to beat content.

then what according to you ultra proffesional player those people should do while playing mmorpg.

because for sure they do not want to do hardcore activities like m+ / hc raiding

they should unsub eh ? well guess what - they did unsub - and so does more and more people each day .

you dont mind your game dying ? dont be surprised when you will realise in couple of months that 9.1 will be the last raid of SL because it got axed due to it being irrredemeble at this point and blizzard is focusing entirely on 10.0 .

what will you do then ? because i will be laughing so hard while playing FF14

[T-34]

Why? You clearly get plenty of self-satisfaction by basking in your own perceived skill, so why do you also need better gear than those who "lack the skill"?

I don't need anything. This is the way the game is designed.
WoW is certainly not unique in letting rewards follow difficulty/effort. It is a staple of RGGs of all kinds: MMORPGS and ARPGS.
The system is simple: You beat boss/content and get better gear so you can kill more difficult boss/content and get better gear and so on and so on.

[kamuimac]

I personally think the Valor system they introduced is a bit unclear if you don't make research on the internet to be sure to understand exactly how it's working and how it's unlocked. I had a few discussions with friends about it and there was a lot of confusion, one of them thinking it was possible to upgrade covenant set items with it (and being disappointed it was not possible). It's a fine fix to this problem, but the fact it's coming this late in the season makes it a bit disappointing, as my group of friends had a good streak of doing m+ for the past months, but our interest is slowing down now, having reach a threshold of what we can do, being stuck around m+5/m+6 right now (with heavy time constraints for some and suboptimal specs/covenant in the mix). I think we would have push harder doing m+ earlier in the expansion with the Valor system in place, and my friends would have kept doing callings and other type of content as well.

there will be literaly f...ton of people like your friend. once those people realie that they cannot upgrade anything they will just quit game

because atm they literaly connot upgrade any PVE gear in this game exept for newly obtaned m+ pieces

and nobody is insane enough to farm base m+ gear at this point of patch .

they botched 9.0.5 completly . and it had such potential . its a crime what they did.

[Rucati]

That's like saying you don't really need a microwave because you can just start a fire to warm up your food. Sure, all you need is some wood and some matches. But a microwave makes it a lot faster, convenient and pleasant.

Same with gear. You might be able to clear Torghast and world quests with crappy gear. But that doesn't mean that better gear isn't still nice. Gear exists as a reward and the main character power progression mechanism at max level since the start of the game.

It's extra silly when you consider that the things you consider to "require gear" are arbitrarily created by Blizzard.

Also in some cases it's simply not true. The first +15 key was cleared by people in ~183ilvl, therefore M+ gear is redundant.
Mythic was cleared by people in ~220ilvl, less than what Mythic drops, therefore Mythic raiding gear is redundant.
And PvP gear is only necessary as much gear your opponent has. Gear could be completely removed from PvP and it would still work and be competitive.


It's a bullshit gatekeeping argument that just draws a very arbitrary line on what gear is "necessary" or not. Gear is the main endgame reward the game is designed around, therefore it should be rewarded from every endgame activity.

If gear exists as a reward, as you yourself said, then clearly you should need to do something worthy of getting a reward. And it is rewarded from *every* endgame activity. But Torghast and world quests are not endgame activities.

And your points about gear not being required for those things doesn't really hold up when you figure that those activities drop gear so more people can clear them. Sure, some people can clear +15s are 180 ilvl, but the majority of people can't. But if they grind +5s, then +8s, then +12s or whatever until they're in full 210 gear then they can clear +15s. That's kind of the point.

And I agree about PvP. Gear should actually be completely removed from PvP both as a reward and as a requirement and every BG/arena should just have equalized gear across the board for everyone in it so it can actually be fair and competitive.

So really this just kind of proves my point. Gear is the endgame reward, it is rewarded from endgame activities. If people do not wish to do endgame activities (M+, raiding and arenas) then they do not get gear. I don't see how this is a problem in any way.

[Jujudrood]

if you dont do any mm+, valor you gain with wq and some quest has any purpose ?

they are only to upgrade mm+ stuff right ? nothing to buy with them ?

To answer this OP, you are correct.
The Valor you gain from the 'Callings' quests will have no use for a "casual" player, if we are defining that as a person who does not partake in M+.
There is no auxiliary vendor selling anything, whether it be gear, toys, cosmetics, etc.
It will accumulate based on your Callings completions and sit there until season end, then odds are it will get converted to gold so you can acquire more next season (9.1) and rinse and repeat until such a time that they add a vendor for Valor or the expansion ends.

Valor is a supplementary system to provide an alternative gear upgrade path for M+ only.
Because Valor is rewarded in "casual" content, yet has no purpose in said content, it makes this system a poorly implemented one.

[Kolvarg]

I don't need anything. This is the way the game is designed.
WoW is certainly not unique in letting rewards follow difficulty/effort. It is a staple of RGGs of all kinds: MMORPGS and ARPGS.
The system is simple: You beat boss/content and get better gear so you can kill more difficult boss/content and get better gear and so on and so on.

Except it has been designed differently in many different iterations. From WotLK to MoP you could get PvE currency from nearly any endgame activity, and buy raid-level gear with it even if you didn't raid.

The system is simpler than that: You complete endgame content and get better gear. That's all.

[T-34]

then what according to you ultra proffesional player those people should do while playing mmorpg.

because for sure they do not want to do hardcore activities like m+ / hc raiding

they should unsub eh ? well guess what - they did unsub - and so does more and more people each day .

you dont mind your game dying ? dont be surprised when you will realise in couple of months that 9.1 will be the last raid of SL because it got axed due to it being irrredemeble at this point and blizzard is focusing entirely on 10.0 .

what will you do then ? because i will be laughing so hard while playing FF14

M+ is certainly not hardcore, kind sir. Over 4 million unique characters have completed a +2-3 key.
If you can't accept that you get gear according to your skill/effort then you shouldn't play an MMORPG.
And I am not saying that 'i am a "ultra proffesional player". I would describe myself as quite average.

I just like to play a game where the rewards follows skill/effort. And WoW is such a game and has always been such a game. So why should WoW suddenly die? The vast majority of the playerbase, from the most casual to the most hardcore, are perfectly aware how WoW works and have no problem with it.

[Tradu]

I view this as both an incentive to do callings (and engage with world content for players doing only instanced content) and an incentive for more casual players to get to start doing mythic+ content to spend the Valor.

I know people don't like the fact that the game is designed this way, but it's pretty obvious that the devs create systems that interact with each other this way to incentivise players to do all type of content, thus playing the game longer. It make sense to try to bridge some systems between them, while not making it the only way to play (the fact that calling are not the only and main way to get Valor is a good example of that).

I personally think the Valor system they introduced is a bit unclear if you don't make research on the internet to be sure to understand exactly how it's working and how it's unlocked. I had a few discussions with friends about it and there was a lot of confusion, one of them thinking it was possible to upgrade covenant set items with it (and being disappointed it was not possible). It's a fine fix to this problem, but the fact it's coming this late in the season makes it a bit disappointing, as my group of friends had a good streak of doing m+ for the past months, but our interest is slowing down now, having reach a threshold of what we can do, being stuck around m+5/m+6 right now (with heavy time constraints for some and suboptimal specs/covenant in the mix). I think we would have push harder doing m+ earlier in the expansion with the Valor system in place, and my friends would have kept doing callings and other type of content as well.

Sure, I don't mind valor being on emissaries, especially because the amount is low enough that it's not worth doing over actually playing keys. If it gets more people interested in M+ in order to spend it, that's probably a good thing.

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there will be literaly f...ton of people like your friend. once those people realie that they cannot upgrade anything they will just quit game

because atm they literaly connot upgrade any PVE gear in this game exept for newly obtaned m+ pieces

and nobody is insane enough to farm base m+ gear at this point of patch .

they botched 9.0.5 completly . and it had such potential . its a crime what they did.

I see you haven't listed a group for De Other Side this week.

[Kolvarg]

If gear exists as a reward, as you yourself said, then clearly you should need to do something worthy of getting a reward.

And I suppose you and you alone has the say in what is worthy or not of getting a reward?

But Torghast and world quests are not endgame activities.

They very clearly are. Why wouldn't they be?

And your points about gear not being required for those things doesn't really hold up when you figure that those activities drop gear so more people can clear them. Sure, some people can clear +15s are 180 ilvl, but the majority of people can't.

Why? If it's doable in 180ilvl, anyone who needs more gear than that is a badie and shouldn't be handhold by gear. Right?

You're just falling into the typical "anyone who's better than me is a tryhard and doesn't count, and anyone who's worse than me sucks and doesn't deserve rewards" mindset. Open your mind a bit.

[Doffen]

Yeah, I've noticed that the WQs for anima don't give as much anymore. Where one would give 70 prior to 9.0.5, now gives 35 anima only. There are also a lot fewer WQs that give anima now. Didn't Blizz say they were going to make it less grindy to get anima with this patch?

No change on my wq list. Yesterday I had 1150 anima around the zones. Thats a bit more than average the last 4 weeks.

Its rng.

[shuubu]

Why wouldn't they want to get better gear? Casual doesn't mean they don't do high level stuff, just means they don't do a lot of it.

I'd like to do 4 or 5 M+ a week, but generally only find people to do 0 or 1 a week.

Well said. People for some reason equal casual to bad instead of just being very time limited.

The whole point of mmorpg is to advance your character in power level, rewards etc. At the moment in shadowlands they made a series of really bad decisions that prevent us time limited people from advancing our characters. Adding valor points in the same way as they were in wotlk for example would have been good.

And this is a shame. My personal favorite as an expansion was Legion as it provided satisfactory means of progress for everyone.

[Kaver]

Not any more, last week I got 10+ gear, next week 9+, next week 8+ etc...

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The key deteriorates over time. That's what has changed.

Then time it. Otherwise you don’t even deserve the gear. Stop the entitlement.

[erifwodahs]

The incentive for me to spend time learning dungeon mechanics and timings goes out then window when my grey log druid friend pulls almost 30k on first boss in mists by literally hitting 2 buttons

So classes are not allowed to do burst in a short window of time so you don't feel bad?
I mean It must be really hard for other classes to cope with frost mage cleave on the same boss outside of the burst window.
Or to see that the same frost mage at the end of the dungeon did similar damage to that "30k" boomkin, because that's literally the ultimate best scenario for that boomie to use convoke. In reality it's not like that. If you think that this is norm, you again would lack understanding why "meta" are not just "big dam".