Making a case for Ranged Tanking in WoW

[RobertoCarlos]

That's a whole lot of assumptions in one post.

You don't know what you're talking about. It would not work

[datguy81]

The current thread in regards to having companions in WoW got me considering that with the new level of AI that Blizzard has produced (as recently shown with the Expedition Teams in BFA, and the AI tanking and healing in the dungeon at the end of Exile's Reach), would it be possible for Blizzard to actually create a future spec that could accomplish the dream of ranged tanking via an AI threat source?

Essentially what this means is you have a ranged character fighting in range, and this ranged character has an AI companion/pet/minion/construct in melee range absorbing the damage and threat from the boss. This idea largely came to me from a recent game of Overwatch where Ashe used her ultimate ability to send in a burly robot companion named Bob, who rushes the opposing team, knocks them back, and then proceeds to stand in place and shoot at them. Meanwhile, Ashe is in the background picking people off because the opposing team is trying to take down Bob.

Again, with the generally improved AI, I think Blizzard could actually accomplish a new style of tanking that has been desired by the userbase (who are a little tired of the standard tank and spank melee) but deemed generally impossible due to existing boss mechanics. Imagine a tank who can actually fight with a bow, a gun, or be a spellcaster? That's something to consider.

We had it in Bc with Leotheras the Blind needing a Warlock Tank. People really did not like it. I am guessing this is another attempt to talk about your class concept

[Teriz]

ofcourse its technically possible. (albeit lets be honest, most of it will be scripted not actual AI)

but you run into this simple problem:
-if the AI can do mechanics and it just as tanky as a player character, why bring a player character.
-if the AI can do mechanics but is not as tanky as a player character, why bring the AI to difficult content.
-if the AI can't do mechanics it's no different from hunter/lock pets, useful once in a blue moon in non-solo content.

You bring the AI to keep the boss in place so that the player can fight at ranged. I believe that both the player and AI should share the tankyness, in that when the boss inflicts damage on the AI character it should effect the player as well. Perhaps in the form of reduced damage (like feedback). I don't think the AI should do all the mechanics. Again, it's job should be to anchor the boss in place to control its movement.

other fun situations to imagine:
-AI pet has to move left. player controlling AI pet has to move right. how does this happen?
-does the controlling player count as a ranged for being targeted by mechanics? does this mean they potentially have to deal with a ranged mechanic while a tank mechanic is also happening?
-what happens if the AI pet is out of range of the player controlling it?

-That's the question; How much control does the player have over the AI?
-Another good question. I'm erring on the side that if you're fighting at ranged you should be considered ranged.
-I don't believe that this pet should have a range, and I'm still considering how much control a player should have over it.

Good questions to ponder.

- - - Updated - - -

You don't know what you're talking about. It would not work

Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean that it can't be done.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

I have. You're making it seem like we're designing a warp drive for a starship instead of a class for a videogame.

Nah man, no offense...why are you trying to reinvent the wheel when you obviously don't know how to ride a bike.
You are overcomplicating a working system which has been in the game since the beginning 16 years ago by introducing a feature to the game which is destined to fail because it can never keep up with the traditional tanking...should I make a list of the AI-problems WOW had with pets, SEF and other shit in the past?
Like I said above, positioning and kiting alone are two reasons why this won't work. And if you would have really tanked content properly at some point you would know that already.

[Twdft]

There should be no AI help at all with tanking. If you can find a way to make controlling the pet easy enough to actually work a range tank could be fun for certain people. But AI help goes against, you know, playing your character.

Other than that a ranged tank would have to share health with their pet to work. Not just have a second life by letting AI tank for you and rez the unfortunate pet when it dies.

[LedZeppelin]

Alright gang, we captured the criminal. Time to see who really is behind this thread.
*takes off mask*
Oh my god, its Mr. Tinkerer/Necromancer man. How could you!?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You bring the AI to keep the boss in place so that the player can fight at ranged. I believe that both the player and AI should share the tankyness, in that when the boss inflicts damage on the AI character it should effect the player as well. Perhaps in the form of reduced damage (like feedback). I don't think the AI should do all the mechanics. Again, it's job should be to anchor the boss in place to control its movement.



-That's the question; How much control does the player have over the AI?
-Another good question. I'm erring on the side that if you're fighting at ranged you should be considered ranged.
-I don't believe that this pet should have a range, and I'm still considering how much control a player should have over it.

Good questions to ponder.

- - - Updated - - -



Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean that it can't be done.

Anchoring a boss for range to hit it isn’t even a fraction of what tanking is about.

It can’t be done because you’d have to gut the game to make it work.

[Teriz]

Two reasons, first tanks don’t follow the movements of bosses they maneuver the bosses them selfs, second it would mean there is a perfect way to tank the boss that the aI would always do making all other takes obsolete as said aI wouldn’t have to deal with human error.

So then make the AI purposely imperfect, forcing the tank to be aware of the purposeful AI mistakes and make adjustments. Conversely you could give the player character more control over the movement of the AI to the point where it isn't cumbersome, but also just enough to make it so it isn't a cakewalk.

[datguy81]

Alright gang, we captured the criminal. Time to see who really is behind this thread.
*takes off mask*
Oh my god, its Mr. Tinkerer/Necromancer man. How could you!?

yep it's like the turret thread a thread masked as something else to try to talk about "Tinkerers" because they will wear mail, be a ranged tank, have an alchemist healing spec, use turrets and have a mech suit!!

[Teriz]

Nah man, no offense...why are you trying to reinvent the wheel when you obviously don't know how to ride a bike.
You are overcomplicating a working system which has been in the game since the beginning 16 years ago by introducing a feature to the game which is destined to fail because it can never keep up with the traditional tanking...should I make a list of the AI-problems WOW had with pets, SEF and other shit in the past?
Like I said above, positioning and kiting alone are two reasons why this won't work. And if you would have really tanked content properly at some point you would know that already.

And like I said, I have. I'm trying to find solutions to those problems instead of simply throwing up my hands and saying it's impossible.

[EternalBany]

I remember doing gruul`s lair and havin warlocks (or mages?) tank one boss
with a shitty guild that was so messy...

[Hellobolis]

You bring the AI to keep the boss in place so that the player can fight at ranged. I believe that both the player and AI should share the tankyness, in that when the boss inflicts damage on the AI character it should effect the player as well. Perhaps in the form of reduced damage (like feedback). I don't think the AI should do all the mechanics. Again, it's job should be to anchor the boss in place to control its movement.

let's make it a lot more real: take a boss like huntsman 2nd dog, where fairly simple add movement is required. basically you gotto move the add between point A B and C. how would this work?

targeting circles like current pets? you said yourself this is cumbersome.
switching control between the player character and the pet when you press a button? could be interesting but complicated if both have to move at the same time.
AI does it for you? limits your boss strategy to the AI script, meaning people playing this char will be hard benched because of it on bosses where this matters.
crazy shit like player moves with asdf and pet moves with arrow keys? only gods can play it effectively.

then step it up and think about how you would deal with a boss with more involved movement requirements like sire denatrius.

Good questions to ponder.

yes there is a lot to ponder about when the games combat system isn't built with this in mind :P

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So then make the AI purposely imperfect, forcing the tank to be aware of the purposeful AI mistakes and make adjustments. Conversely you could give the player character more control over the movement of the AI to the point where it isn't cumbersome, but also just enough to make it so it isn't a cakewalk.

You’d either have to make it so imperfect that No one will bring a tank that randomly wipes a group with no human input.

Or make the imperfections so meaningless that all other tanks will still be obsolete.

Neither choice would work movement would have to be under direct player control for it to ever be a thing.

[Teriz]

There should be no AI help at all with tanking. If you can find a way to make controlling the pet easy enough to actually work a range tank could be fun for certain people. But AI help goes against, you know, playing your character.

Okay, now this is an interesting take. The reason I'm using AI is because people argue that having someone control the "pet" as well as the tank would be too cumbersome. I'd be willing to consider controlling the pet completely to add a level of complexity.

Other than that a ranged tank would have to share health with their pet to work. Not just have a second life by letting AI tank for you and rez the unfortunate pet when it dies.

I've always agreed with that.

[Aresk]

That sounds less like a ranged tank and more like a pet tank, which we already have in hunters and warlocks. I presume a ranged tank would be a person who is solidly built and adept at building threat on targets at range. The issue with this is of course the melee enemies will move into melee with the tank, and so for efficiency, the tank would then move to the ranged units for cleave damage, making them no different than a melee tank if there are any melee enemies. On pure ranged packs, it would play differently.

My issue with a pet tank, as you described it, is that the "tank" player isn't tanking, and the AI seems to be controlling all the tanking duties. At that point, it sounds like you're playing a ranged DPS (or maybe healer) with a pocket tank. It's an interesting concept, but I have some concerns:

• What happens in a fight where the ranged character has to go into another phase: does the tank AI stay out or go with them? In a fight like Algalon, if it goes with them, then the boss resets. Meanwhile, in fights like the Desolate Host, you want to ensure tanks can go into the phase.
• How does healing work? If the AI is treated like a pet, some healing addons would need to be revamped to handle it. If the tank is treated as another player, how does that work in terms of party-style frames where there are only five slots?
• If the tank dies, what happens to the ranged component? Vice versa? How does this work with battle resses?
• What is the ranged player doing while the AI does the tanking job for them? Based on your example, they're doing damage, and is that damage just auto-generated into threat on the AI? Does the AI also do damage? How important is the ranged person's damage to effectively playing the class?
• How does the AI handle positioning? For instance, on Sludgefist, does the AI automatically move out of stomps? How does it pick which pillar to stand behind? What happens if the raid changes up its strategy on the fly; can the AI be adjusted on the fly?

It seems like this idea is a way for a ranged DPS to tank without tanking. A pet taunt and an earth elemental can be clutch at times, but I don't see something like that replacing dedicated tanks.

[bloodkin]

Another idea that will never make it to the game in any shape or form. If you let an AI take over movement, damage mitigation and threat management, you basically make a class that takes all of the important decision making and player skill out of the game and leaves the player as a support to the AI.

Decision making in factors such as positioning, kiting, cooldowns and damage reduction usage, threat management are the core gameplay elements that make a tank interesting to play as a role and which also defines the role in itself, it is the very reason a player chooses to play a tank in the first place. Taking any of these elements out of the hands of the players would effectively make all other tanks obsolete and thus effectively end tanking as a role by reducing the tank to another dps or support type of character. This is also why blizz never made demo locks or BM hunters into a tank spec, because it would never work properly or undermine the essence of the role. Blizz has mentioned in the past they they have mused the idea of making both or either one of these specs into tanking specs but never went through with it because it would undermine the game too much.

I'd argue that you never played tank much for any considerable amount if time, because if you did, you would know that this idea is just as bad as the turret thread (which surprise surprise, turned into another tinkard thread). I'd imagine you'll start talking tinker within 1 to 2 pages anyway.

[datguy81]

I remember doing gruul`s lair and havin warlocks (or mages?) tank one boss
with a shitty guild that was so messy...

SSC had it as well.

[Teriz]

yep it's like the turret thread a thread masked as something else to try to talk about "Tinkerers" because they will wear mail, be a ranged tank, have an alchemist healing spec, use turrets and have a mech suit!!

Actually there's been talk of Survival becoming a ranged spec, and people have fond memories of Bookin and Warlock off-tanking in the past. So no, this isn't all about the Tinker, which would more than likely have a melee tank spec regardless.

[Hellobolis]

[*]What is the ranged player doing while the AI does the tanking job for them? Based on your example, they're doing damage, and is that damage just auto-generated into threat on the AI? Does the AI also do damage? How important is the ranged person's damage to effectively playing the class?

that's' the easiest part. it would be just like regular tanks. aka they would have to press some form of active mitigation for their pet, decide when the pet uses cooldowns, etc.

and yeah either all damage would have to come from the pet (dumb) or they would have to have some permanent misdirection effect that's explained by the class lore.

(or alternative, the pet does that part and they would be mostly focussed on controlling the pet movement, but that's way wonky compared to current specs and nobody would enjoy that.)

[roboscorcher]

The current thread in regards to having companions in WoW got me considering that with the new level of AI that Blizzard has produced (as recently shown with the Expedition Teams in BFA, and the AI tanking and healing in the dungeon at the end of Exile's Reach), would it be possible for Blizzard to actually create a future spec that could accomplish the dream of ranged tanking via an AI threat source?

Essentially what this means is you have a ranged character fighting in range, and this ranged character has an AI companion/pet/minion/construct in melee range absorbing the damage and threat from the boss. This idea largely came to me from a recent game of Overwatch where Ashe used her ultimate ability to send in a burly robot companion named Bob, who rushes the opposing team, knocks them back, and then proceeds to stand in place and shoot at them. Meanwhile, Ashe is in the background picking people off because the opposing team is trying to take down Bob.

Again, with the generally improved AI, I think Blizzard could actually accomplish a new style of tanking that has been desired by the userbase (who are a little tired of the standard tank and spank melee) but deemed generally impossible due to existing boss mechanics. Imagine a tank who can actually fight with a bow, a gun, or be a spellcaster? That's something to consider.

I always thought it would be cool to turn Survival into a ranged tank spec, like Rexxar in HotS. It would be fun to control a giant animal using defensive abilities and holding aggro, while also running around with a bow. They could have a mechanic where you sometimes need to mount your pet, and sometimes split up. Maybe you're tankier when you're fighting atop your pet, but disengaging allows you to cast traps and stay alive when your pet dies. The better you time the disengage, the quicker you can revive the pet. There's a lot of amazing gameplay potential here.