This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[flaggel]

I enjoyed M+ until they nerfed the loot into the ground. Higher Difficulty =/= Better Loot right now.

Blizzard is bottle necking people into raiding again if they want you to get better gear, instead of M+ being an alternative.

[Argorwal]

I enjoyed M+ until they nerfed the loot into the ground. Higher Difficulty =/= Better Loot right now.

Blizzard is bottle necking people into raiding again if they want you to get better gear, instead of M+ being an alternative.

Mythic+ is by far the easiest and most accessible path to 226 gear.

[msdos]

M+ is fine. Specs like Ungabungakin having all the utility & damage in the world while other specs beg for invite scraps isn't

While the community lies in your ear about "bro just play what you want, hehehehehehehe". The whole thing is as disingenuous and selfish as it gets. People don't give a damn if you struggle, they just expect everyone to play an extra 999 hours and reroll to FOTM at the slightest bit of resistance.

[Amariw]

Its honestly alright. I like it, have since Legion. Would have been a blast to experience it with MoP class design though.

[Noctiphobia]

It's never been a surprise that people mostly do activities that give them loot. M+ is relatively new, but we've seen it with PvP a lot. People play more PvP when they're rewarded for it. I'm pretty sure that if there was no loot from raids, much fewer people would do that as well. How is that in any way surprising?

Mythic+ is by far the easiest and most accessible path to 226 gear.

It's easiest and most accessible, but also the slowest of the three paths, since you only get the weekly chest (while in 2100+ arenas you also have a conquest piece every 1-2 weeks, and in mythic raids you get actual loot).

[ClassicPeon]

No, the main complaint is about gear most of the time. Having 15 difficulty levels for dungeons, 4 levels for raids, and all of the in-between ilvls for items; The randomness of it just makes it a tiresome system. Getting best-in-slot items feels like such a chore. Getting items doesn't feel rewarding when you already had the same exact item only with 5 less iLvL. I remember the outcry when Blizzard decided to have normal and heroic dungeons have the same exact loot tables, it's boring grinding iLvLs.

I dont see the same threads you do.

Randomness is a definite problem but it has nothing to do with raid difficulties. People are going to relatively quickly gravitate towards the difficulty that fits them, and then mostly play that difficulty. You could make the argument for m+.

M+ definitely has its ups and downs. This expansion its been mostly downs due to a combination of little gear/low ilvl(except from the vault which makes no sense) and horriffying balance thats going to come more into focus now that valor and 15+'s are a thing

[T-34]

While the community lies in your ear about "bro just play what you want, hehehehehehehe". The whole thing is as disingenuous and selfish as it gets. People don't give a damn if you struggle, they just expect everyone to play an extra 999 hours and reroll to FOTM at the slightest bit of resistance.

Of course you can play whatever you want, but other people have the exact same right not to play with you. You are not entitled to be invited to other people's group.

The solution to your non-existing problem is to make your own group and invite other "free spirits" like yourself that have a healthy disdain for those filthy FOTM-people and show them that your free spirit and skill always can beat those FOTM.people!

Come on! Show us what you are made of!

[ClassicPeon]

Of course you can play whatever you want, but other people have the exact same right not to play with you. You are not entitled to be invited to other people's group.

The solution to your non-existing problem is to make your own group and invite other "free spirits" like yourself that have a healthy disdain for those filthy FOTM-people and show them that your free spirit and skill always can beat those FOTM.people!

Come on! Show us what you are made of!

The problem is blown up this expansion due to the relatively tight timer on +15's and the extremely bad balance of specs in m+.

[ellieg]

The problem is blown up this expansion due to the relatively tight timer on +15's and the extremely bad balance of specs in m+.

I honestly don't think there's any combo of non meta specs that can't time all +15s. Did one the other day with me a frost dk, a frost mage, and a survival hunter.

I'm sure you could prot war, mw healer, surv hunter, demo lock, feral druid and still easily get ksm

[Argorwal]

It's never been a surprise that people mostly do activities that give them loot. M+ is relatively new, but we've seen it with PvP a lot. People play more PvP when they're rewarded for it. I'm pretty sure that if there was no loot from raids, much fewer people would do that as well. How is that in any way surprising?



It's easiest and most accessible, but also the slowest of the three paths, since you only get the weekly chest (while in 2100+ arenas you also have a conquest piece every 1-2 weeks, and in mythic raids you get actual loot).

Yes, a con to being the easiest and most accessible. It’s the slowest to get a full set and most prone to RNG.

[Soon-TM]

I'm sure you could prot war, mw healer, surv hunter, demo lock, feral druid and still easily get ksm

And it would be way harder than with a meta combo. Path of least resistance and what not.

[ClassicPeon]

I honestly don't think there's any combo of non meta specs that can't time all +15s. Did one the other day with me a frost dk, a frost mage, and a survival hunter.

I'm sure you could prot war, mw healer, surv hunter, demo lock, feral druid and still easily get ksm

I never said that. I said the discrepancy is much larger this expansion and the timers are tighter then they where in bfa(especially in the end of bfa).

Comes down to some specs needing to work much harder for +15's then others

[Nobleshield]

M+ is probably one of the worst things I've seen in an RPG. Focusing on speedrunning and a Diablo torment system is ridiculous and shits on everything an RPG has stood for for the past 40 years (the earliest RPG video game came out in 1982).

[gobio]

Many in game activity would not be appealing without incentives (loot), to single out just M+ is unfair and agenda driven.

For a more objective view to see what people like, look at LEGEND. People want legendary, some do maw of soul over and over, some fly around and pick chest, some do WQ, I like to raid, all my attempt to join emerald nightmare N+H group in weekend got filled up in 20-30 minutes with like 20+ people (even when story advanced to broken shore already). Now you know in general what people prefer to spend their time on.

[Mojo03]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

What's this based on? Your feelings?

[Biomega]

I like the concept of M+. Bite-sized, time-gated dungeon content is absolutely something that appeals to me in principle.

Where I just cannot get behind it is the implementation - both the meta restraints and the reward structure are a major turn-off for me.

[Shiekyerbooty]

I don't really enjoy mythic plus.... right now I'm 210 just from raiding with my very casual guild... 6 hours a week, 8/10 heroic

Now though I only have 2 or 3 slots below 213.... we'll be getting 220's from generals and sire over the next month....

I look forward to next week's raid.... even though the drop rates suck, I don't look forward to the vault, because it has pretty much sucked for me... just this week, my 2 213 items were the only two cloth belts in CN, of which I already had both

So now I kinda feel forced to do mythics to progress between now and 9.1.... I don't really " need " the gear so to speak... I am not a burden to my raid team...

It's just that who the hell wants to stagnate for 3 months waiting for 9.1 to come out ???

This upgrade system is stupid, it is obvious Blizz is trying to funnel their players into mythics... which only serves the boosters and causes resentment in players that don't really want to grind mythic dungeons

I get it... they want to create an E-sport out of mythics and pvp... but, you can have other system upgrades too, that don't simply cater to pvp and mythic grinders

[Argorwal]

I don't really enjoy mythic plus.... right now I'm 210 just from raiding with my very casual guild... 6 hours a week, 8/10 heroic

Now though I only have 2 or 3 slots below 213.... we'll be getting 220's from generals and sire over the next month....

I look forward to next week's raid.... even though the drop rates suck, I don't look forward to the vault, because it has pretty much sucked for me... just this week, my 2 213 items were the only two cloth belts in CN, of which I already had both

So now I kinda feel forced to do mythics to progress between now and 9.1.... I don't really " need " the gear so to speak... I am not a burden to my raid team...

It's just that who the hell wants to stagnate for 3 months waiting for 9.1 to come out ???

This upgrade system is stupid, it is obvious Blizz is trying to funnel their players into mythics... which only serves the boosters and causes resentment in players that don't really want to grind mythic dungeons

I get it... they want to create an E-sport out of mythics and pvp... but, you can have other system upgrades too, that don't simply cater to pvp and mythic grinders

Prior to 9.0.5 it was 100% impossible to get an item > 210 from mythic+ outside of the 1 single per week vault.

That is all valor was moving to address. Ways to make running the actual dungeons, and EoD loot, to be able to be somewhat useful.

[Shiekyerbooty]

Prior to 9.0.5 it was 100% impossible to get an item > 210 from mythic+ outside of the 1 single per week vault.

That is all valor was moving to address. Ways to make running the actual dungeons, and EoD loot, to be able to be somewhat useful.

That makes sense, and I can agree with that logic, because the pvp upgrade system was similar and pvper's love it

So now we have a good upgrade system for pvp, and mythic grinders, so what about an upgrade system for casuals and raid loggers ?

[Lahis]

That makes sense, and I can agree with that logic, because the pvp upgrade system was similar and pvper's love it

So now we have a good upgrade system for pvp, and mythic grinders, so what about an upgrade system for casuals and raid loggers ?

Raids could use some system, though Blizz just considers all PvE to be in the same bucket, so that means the M+ system for them.

Every upgrade system is gated by the difficulty of the content one does though. Which means casuals who choose not to do group content already have theirs: the covenant armor that can be upgraded to match the highest WQ reward ilvl.