Making a case for Ranged Tanking in WoW

[bloodkin]

The "idea" is ranged tanking, which hasn't changed. The method has always been open for change, which is why I had no issue going from AI to direct control.

This very post I'm quoting from you is a prime example of being "up in arms" about nothing more than an exchange of ideas.

if your idea was to open a concept exchange or brainstorming about it, then you should've at least put in the effort to give this thread a proper title.

Secondly, your original post only talks about using an AI to remotely tank tank a boss, not even knowing about the actual state of uselessness of current AI's blizz is using and not realizing that an npc doing everything for you is an inherently flawed idea, as it would effectively not be a tank class. Arkanon is entirely right when saying that you put nu effort or research in tho this subject.

if you want to know what the remote control AI is supposed to be able to do, then actually go play a tank for a few weeks, because it really seems as if you have no clue what skills are required to tank.

[Teriz]

I thought this was an open exchange of ideas? Why are you trying to make this all about you? Why can we not discuss the ideas others have put forward?

Uh, I was responding to your posts directed at me.

- - - Updated - - -

I've looked through thread thread and, yea, you pretty much want those things.....he is correct. It's simply not possible man. An interesting thought, but mechanically, it's just not feasible. The amount of micromanagement one would have to do to play this class even decently would be through the roof and would probly drive the player insane pretty quickly. Not to mention how bad most players would be at the class to the point where no one would ever bring this class.

Read post #80.

- - - Updated - - -

if your idea was to open a concept exchange or brainstorming about it, then you should've at least put in the effort to give this thread a proper title.

Nah, the title of the thread is just fine.

[Chakah]

In short, he wants to play a ranged DPS but be able to use the 'insta-invite' that you get by selecting the tank role in LFR/LFD.

So much this.


OP,
Make a friend and have them tank for you.


I've tanked every boss in this game for my guild since vanilla. Your idea might have worked for simple ones like garr, but the situational awareness required by modern bosses is so very much greater. Co-tanking is a thing on almost every fight now. You won't be able to do that effectively unless you are inhabiting the tanking 'thing'. If you somehow overcome the obstacle of controlling two characters, you are either going to have super bad dps, or super poor awareness. Maybe the idea of a tank class that can throw down a dps turret would be workable... but other than flavor/visuals, that idea doesn't really bring anything new.

In the mean time...
You should roll a guardian druid and spec for owl-weaving. After tanking current content, you'll get a better idea of what is actually required.

[Teriz]

So much this.

Yeah, if you believe that nonsense from Ielenia, you simply haven't been paying attention.

[Better]

Yeah, you and Ielenia seem to have skipped over a few posts. I've been talking about direct control of the character for quite a few pages now.

If you're taking direct control over the pet for more than 50% of the fight (as WOULD be the case for Denathrius) you aren't really a ranged tank... just kind of a mounted tank with clunky mechanics

[bloodkin]

Uh, I was responding to your posts directed at me.

- - - Updated - - -



Read post #80.

- - - Updated - - -



Nah, the title of the thread is just fine.

Amazing comeback. No really, it is of the same quality and effort as all of your other posts and I am deeply impressed.

How nice of you to selectively gloss over other points of criticism, it really made all of this so much easier to discuss for you.

Why bother with a thread, if you only want people to agree with you, instead of also accepting and discussing criticism that will inevitably pop up in a thread?

Again, the entire concept of a ranged tank (and more specifically, one with an AI doing most/all of the hard work) just doesn't mesh with wow, or any wow clones (SWTOR as example). A ranged tank only works, if the boss or mobs itself also stay at ranged, which they don't, because that would require to rework every mob and bossfight just to implement one class, which blizz will never do.

[Ielenia]

Nope, that is incorrect.

Alright. Do please elaborate where and how I am wrong, please? Because that is the entire vibe we're getting, here.

[Teriz]

If you're taking direct control over the pet for more than 50% of the fight (as WOULD be the case for Denathrius) you aren't really a ranged tank... just kind of a mounted tank with clunky mechanics

What if you're controlling both at the same time throughout the entire fight?

- - - Updated - - -

Why bother with a thread, if you only want people to agree with you, instead of also accepting and discussing criticism that will inevitably pop up in a thread?

Except if you read post #80, you would see that isn't the case. You clearly didn't, so I kept the response short. If you're not going to take the effort to actually read my responses and accuse me of something that isn't the case, I'm not going to take the effort to respond to your post.

- - - Updated - - -

Alright. Do please elaborate where and how I am wrong, please? Because that is the entire vibe we're getting, here.

Read post #80, and subsequent posts after that.

[ozzynclyde]

[QUOTE=Teriz;53066875]Uh, I was responding to your posts directed at me.

- - - Updated - - -



Read post #80.

- - - Updated - - -

ehhhh I can see youre ready to take this idea to the grave.

[Chakah]

Yeah, if you believe that nonsense from Ielenia, you simply haven't been paying attention.

It seems to be a rather popular opinion in this thread.... lol

I noticed you skipped over the rest of my post, so I assume you agree with me and that you will report your owl-weaving findings back in about 6 months and this thread can die until then.

[Teriz]

DKs were originally billed as a ranged-esque tank, IT, DND, DC, etc. Blizzard moved them even further away from that. I just don't see them making a tank spec that is nearly all ranged abilities. The closest I imagine we'd see is a mage tank, or tinker tank. Both would be seriously fun.

And that's really the entire point. Players would play this tank just because it's a new way to tank, regardless of how complex it is. Complexity is not a barrier for a good chunk of the player base.

- - - Updated - - -

It seems to be a rather popular opinion in this thread.... lol

Yeah, because people are being reactionary instead of reading the entirety of the thread and seeing how the ideas are changing and evolving.

- - - Updated - - -

ehhhh I can see youre ready to take this idea to the grave.

Let me ask you an honest question; Do you think creating a true ranged tank in WoW is impossible? As in, it's more likely for mankind to build a Dyson sphere around the sun or to terraform Venus, than it is for Blizzard to figure out a way to make a ranged tank in WoW work.

Do you really believe that?

[Ielenia]

Read post #80, and subsequent posts after that.

So...

The way I view it, the player should be the attacker, not the AI. Again, the AI is just there to allow the tank to maintain range, so it should be generating threat via the player's attacks.

Just like I said: you just want to play a ranged DPS.

Damage done to the AI should effect the ranged tank.

So the whole "ranged" thing ends up fully negated because you're still taking melee damage from the boss.

I don't think you should rework existing bosses. I think you should work the new spec until it can work with traditional boss mechanics.

Because the entire "ranged" thing is negated by the "taunting turret that shares damage with player". It's a "ranged tank" in name only. Worse yet: the player now has to worry about the position of two entities: their own character, and their character's turret.

I'm sure. I just think that a ranged tank could excite players and bring more people the tanking fold, because it's something potentially different.

And then leave the class because it ends up either needlessly overly complex, or a bore due to the low engagement.

All in all, you addressed none of my concerns that I originally posted.

[Teriz]

So effectively like playing two characters - a tank and a ranged dps - at the same time?

Maybe. Again, along the lines of Rexxar in HotS.

[bloodkin]

Let me ask you an honest question; Do you think creating a true ranged tank in WoW is impossible? As in, it's more likely for mankind to build a Dyson sphere around the sun or to terraform Venus, than it is for Blizzard to figure out a way to make a ranged tank in WoW work.

Do you really believe that?

Yes, even to the hyperbole example. In fact, blizz will most likely never add another class again, let alone a class with that bad of an idea behind it, there is nothing more here to discuss, because you cherry pick the arguments you answer, with half asses answers. And yes, I had already read your precious post 80, and NOTHING in it was even slightly convincing to counter the fact that ranged tanks will never work.

Now go on teriz, and cherrypick the hell out of this post, like every other post you 'argue' against.

[Teriz]

I don't know anything about Rexxar,

https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Rexxar

but in wow, tanking requires constant attention and positioning. Hell, think about m+ and the kiting meta, or even just sanguine week. Tanks are running around like chicken with head cut off. I can't imagine doing that while also playing a ranged character.

Absolutely. Which is why the spec would have to have abilities that provide positioning and movement, yet still be intuitive. Again, I have no doubt that such a spec would be complex, but it could still be rewarding and fun to play.

[Ielenia]

Absolutely. Which is why the spec would have to have abilities that provide positioning and movement, yet still be intuitive.

More intuitive how? You havent given any example.

[Teriz]

Do you honestly believe you will win the lottery??????

If I played there would be a possibility of me winning.

- - - Updated - - -

More intuitive how? You havent given any example.

I never said I had examples. I'm simply saying that is what would be required.

[aceperson]

with the new level of AI that Blizzard has produced (as recently shown with the Expedition Teams in BFA, and the AI tanking and healing in the dungeon at the end of Exile's Reach),

I feel the need to point out this ai hasn't been adapted for use with hunter, dk, and warlock pets. i think the only reason those work is because they were pre-made environments where blizz could add a priority rating system to the computer to determine how they would act. it's probably not as good as you think it is.

[Ielenia]

I never said I had examples. I'm simply saying that is what would be required.

Then saying "be more intuitive" is a meaningless argument, unless you have to give us examples to show us what you mean.

Because, as far as I see in your posts here, there's nothing "intuitive" at all in these mechanics you're talking about. They're either needlessly complicated, or completely negate the tank role altogether.

[Gref]

this is so ridiculous.
How are you going to coordinate lets say, heroic sire boss fight? what you are asking is imfuckingpossible. And if the ai works perfectly, dodging all that shit, pulling the boss wherever is safe etc, what about the other human tank? any mistakes and he sucks ai wins. cannot believe you think this is a logical proposal.

it is clear as day at best you tanked lfr where the bosses only sit and there is no damage.