Why is Sire so hard even for "AOTC" groups?

[T-34]

Jeeze, raiding sounds dreadful. Why would you willingly subject yourself to something like this?
I play video games to have fun, not to experience a "job interview" again.

Some people find it fun to be as good as they can be in a game and like to play with like-minded people.

[klogaroth]

this is what is wrong with wow nowadays.

people dont consider raiding as social experience

its "wasting others people time"

Pugging solely for the purpose of loot was never the social utopia you're imagining. Social experiences tend to be more social when people aren't someone you'll probably never play with again - ie not pugs.

I don't get your angle on this at all. What do you want? Raiding to be social, but people to be disposable, and also to have infinite time, all at once?

As the argument round here always goes puggers pug because they don't have the time, they can't commit to regular lengthy play sessions. They don't have time to waste wiping on bosses that are already in the farm period.

I'm not sure what you want from the game?? You want people to be social, but we're talking about consistent pugging, which makes any interaction fleeting. You don't want people to be hardcore, but you want them to have infinite time to wipe on bosses.

It sounds a lot like you want everyone to be back in college, and new to the game. That's over dude, let it go.

[Dristereau]

It's definitely a challenging boss. It's very controlled in terms of swapping phases correctly, and then completing phase 3 correctly. If you don't remove stacks of P1, people will die on the transition, too high DPS and you need to just stop damaging it. P2 needs to transition smoothly as well, having multiple adds up makes it rough to get everything under control. P3 is challenging, being able to do the soaks whilst dealing with everything else, if one goes off it's likely a wipe.

We're now 3/10 Mythic and it was more challenging to us than any of Shriekwing, Altimor or Hungering Destroyer. We had just over 100 wipes on it before it eventually died.

[Loosecannon]

Not played SL, but the hardest boss I've successfully pugged on Heroic was probably KJ back in early ToS.

How does Sire compare to that fight?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I am going to go with he is basically a massive HP spong that isn't very difficult and has few mechanics but if you mess up like 66% of those mechanics you die. Not damage taken but dead. Even though they are all fairly straightforward and easy to id and avoid. Don't get your stacks down in phase one right? Don't make it to the middle dead. But at the sametime if everyone is knocking all their stacks off all the time, well, probably dead too but as a group. Communication could fix this but we know how that goes.. don't want to say anything because it might expose you for not knowing and getting kicked or everyone is so "elite" and "10/10 mythic" that they don't need to but don't realize something simple like.. kill the adds? Round two if you get hit with the knock back, good chance you dead as you fly off the side, adds up as you are going into the last phase? Yeah, probably dead. Don't soak right in the final phase? Some people are dead. When you toss in the length of time it takes to burn though his HP pool people that are doing the fight in a slightly different way for the first time will make mistakes. People trying to "pump" because the bar size matters a lot in a pug probably miss a few of these simple things and die. Random brain farts are given more opportunity to occur. Then top it off with every wipe, even the first one, is going to see like 3-4 people bounce because we all know pugs are suppose to be "one shot or bust" groups. Oh, and mentioning that.. everyone advertises their groups as "one shot" "guild group" "9 out of 10 mythic lead main" type shit that makes everyone bounce when it is obvious the guy advertising that is a self ear bitter.

I undoubtedly missed a few things but you get the jist.

[Magneto]

people cant play proper without someone calling stuff out. they got used to stuff being called out. at this point in the game it is all about being a human dbm and you are gtg. the lack of audible guidance is what breaks more complex fights.

[craigw]

killed sire the third week into opening. had average ilvl of 203. if you are in a group of nothing but aotc's and you wipe repetedly, then its clear half your group paid for a denathrius kill, and prob still dont know mechanics.

[antelope591]

Not played SL, but the hardest boss I've successfully pugged on Heroic was probably KJ back in early ToS.

How does Sire compare to that fight?

Easier but def one of the harder heroic bosses.

[erifwodahs]

Not played SL, but the hardest boss I've successfully pugged on Heroic was probably KJ back in early ToS.

How does Sire compare to that fight?

Sire is easier because it's more mechanical. But it's comparable. Instant death mechanics, know backs, a bit less of a DPS requirement, tho there is a enrage mechanic at the end so you can't be bad either.

[kamuimac]

I am going to go with he is basically a massive HP spong that isn't very difficult and has few mechanics but if you mess up like 66% of those mechanics you die. Not damage taken but dead. Even though they are all fairly straightforward and easy to id and avoid. Don't get your stacks down in phase one right? Don't make it to the middle dead. But at the sametime if everyone is knocking all their stacks off all the time, well, probably dead too but as a group. Communication could fix this but we know how that goes.. don't want to say anything because it might expose you for not knowing and getting kicked or everyone is so "elite" and "10/10 mythic" that they don't need to but don't realize something simple like.. kill the adds? Round two if you get hit with the knock back, good chance you dead as you fly off the side, adds up as you are going into the last phase? Yeah, probably dead. Don't soak right in the final phase? Some people are dead. When you toss in the length of time it takes to burn though his HP pool people that are doing the fight in a slightly different way for the first time will make mistakes. People trying to "pump" because the bar size matters a lot in a pug probably miss a few of these simple things and die. Random brain farts are given more opportunity to occur. Then top it off with every wipe, even the first one, is going to see like 3-4 people bounce because we all know pugs are suppose to be "one shot or bust" groups. Oh, and mentioning that.. everyone advertises their groups as "one shot" "guild group" "9 out of 10 mythic lead main" type shit that makes everyone bounce when it is obvious the guy advertising that is a self ear bitter.

I undoubtedly missed a few things but you get the jist.

dont forget about pumping as much aoe as humnaly possible in p1 because raid leaders are clueless to and ofc focus on dmg done to adds that dont really matter instead to boss itself in p2 and 3

[Nalam the Venom]

I got my AOTC a few weeks ago in a guild run, and I have not killed Sire a single time since then. I always join "AOTC only" groups, and I even check the other people myself, it's almost always a full group of 10/10H......and yet we just wipe endlessly in phase 3 every time, never getting the boss below 10% even.

What's the deal?

I wonder why some call it hard and others can one shot it while the 4-6 players they are boosting are dead on the floor.

Are the boost community just a league above the average joe?

[tomten]

I play tank and i've noticed when I started pugging it (we dont do hc reclears anymore but I still need trinket), its often very easy cuz I'm know exactly what todo and have memorized all the timings and shit. Usually takes at most 3 attempts unless the group is shit and then I just leave cuz not even 20 tries will kill it.
Which makes me able to not only instruct the other tank but mostly carry that whole aspect.

When I pug on my alt dps... Its a true nightmare, from positioning of adds in p1 to moving boss trough mirrors, buffing adds at all, retarded p3 position for just about everything from shattering, to ravage to hands to orbs...

[Coldkil]

Jeeze, raiding sounds dreadful. Why would you willingly subject yourself to something like this?
I play video games to have fun, not to experience a "job interview" again.

It's the PUG part. IF you don't know who you're grouping with, you're gonna check if at least they're able to do what's required. Doesn't happen in organized groups/guilds.

- - - Updated - - -

I wonder why some call it hard and others can one shot it while the 4-6 players they are boosting are dead on the floor.

Are the boost community just a league above the average joe?

Simply because if you overgear the fight and know what you're doing, and you're basically a full group with 4 new people, they won't impact the fight at all, especially if they die in p1 immediately.

If your group is made of completely random people, it's another story. I've yet to get the curve mostly because i don't play much and the more i wait the harder it becomes to get in a group. Last time i found a good one but it was a fresh clear, and i managed to do 9/10 before logging out.

[Tiwack]

Because timings are incredibly important on sire and that gets messy with varying players and gear over time, for a kill leader needs to be on top of the ball and everyone needs to be ready to respond to the leaders ques. It often takes a wipe or two for everyone to realize where they're at on timings and what they can and can't do.

[garicasha]

I'm just reaching this fight and might form my own group to do it. I'm realizing I'm gonna have to check logs really carefully but in general most fights are tuned to be easier in large groups. Small groups IMO have to pay "logistics tax."

I might wind up doing my preferred raid size, 2/4/12-14. 4 Healers really spreads out tank healing while still having a manageable number of cats to herd.

[anon5123]

Jeeze, raiding sounds dreadful. Why would you willingly subject yourself to something like this?
I play video games to have fun, not to experience a "job interview" again.

Imagine thinking that looking up someone's raid logs, which takes <20 seconds, is a "job interview".
Imagine thinking that wanting to be successful at the game is "dreadful"
Imagine thinking that wiping endlessly on a boss is "having fun"

yikes

[LordVargK]

thats why so many people gave up on SL so early and why over 50% of playerbase already quit SL. .

they just cba to play garbage elitest toxic games.

there are so many others games to play why waste time on wow in its current form .

and this tier raid was overtuned into oblivion - hell it still is.

And the prime example of an entitled lfr skilled player has arrived.

[glowpipe]

All our players except one got sire aotc in a full guild run. We killed it 2 times with the same players, but third kill we started struggling, with the same players who already killed it 2 times before. I think it is mostly burn out that caused this issue for us, people just not trying as hard as before they had aotc.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

And the prime example of an entitled lfr skilled player has arrived.

He whines in almost anything Wow related.


OT: I'd expect pugs to be way less stable compared to runs where people know each other very well so its not surprising pugs falling apart. I can't speak for Denathrius on heroic with a insync group, only on normal.

[vsb]

Not played SL, but the hardest boss I've successfully pugged on Heroic was probably KJ back in early ToS.

How does Sire compare to that fight?

It is similar. The difference is: KJ was nerfed by gear pretty hard and once you start clearing mythics, you overgear him and any mistakes are compensated by gear. Sire is ruthless. One mistake and you're flying into abyss. Another difficulty is multiple timers which depend on his HP. As your raid gears up, those timers shift which means that you have to invent new strategy every week and until you do that, you'll wipe, because things overlap in a wrong way.