Aren't casuals are getting better gear than ever? Was calling it Valor the mistake?

[msdos]

Glad you agree that you initially bringing it up was pointless.

I didn't agree on that and what I brought up was about casuals migrating over to better games instead of "putting in tons of work to feel good about themselves".

So basically you just put words in my mouth while also changing the subject. Nice one.

[OokOok]

Any thread related to the Valor system is bound to have a fair few posts in it complaining about how casual players are being left behind by the game, but is that really the case? Without joining a single premade group & just using the queue system you can get the following:

• 197 Order Hall Items
• 207 World Boss Items
• 200 Reputation Items
• 200 PvP Items (that are actually usable in PvE unlike earlier expansions)
• + more BoEs than in any previous expansion I can remember

To counter the above, it's fair to say professions are absolutely dead for casual & non-casual players alike, apart from perhaps the Darkmoon trinkets which can be another handy +iLvl 200 piece.

Based on the above, without stepping into a single form of non-LFG content (or even buying BoEs), someone can achieve an average item level similar to that of Castle Nathria normal... & this is supposedly Blizzard leaving the casual playerbase behind? Where you can completely nullify the need to raid the normal tier for iLvl progression? This is also working under the assumption that player is doing zero M0s, low M+ keys, low rated arena, etc. And without meaning to sound harsh, if you're doing absolutely none of that content, for whatever reason could you need higher than normal Nathria iLvl loot for?

Was Blizzard's mistake calling it Valor? I've seen people asking for Wrath style badge systems & MoP/WoD style upgrade systems, but I don't really think either are the answer. Thinking back to 3.3.5 when the group finder was added, if you did nothing but LFG random dungeons & some professions, you were getting nowhere near the item level of a normal raider at the time, even if you could buy a few items from the vendor - Hell, you'd struggle to get near the item level of someone who raided the previous tier (I should know, as I played super casual during that period, struggling to pug past 7/12 ICC N each week )

As for a MoP style system, all it does is add gear inflation to the game, which either leads to massive powerspikes between tiers (& also forces the need for stat-squishing earlier on), or makes it so people raiding the higher difficulties are already going to be far ahead of what the casual players can hope to achieve in the next patch.

So, was Blizzard's mistake simply just calling it Valor? Is there something I'm forgetting? It's been a long 15 years or so playing this game, so forgive me if I've left something important out.

PS: I don't care what gear anyone has, as to me it's just a tool rather than the reward. I'm making this thread because the pity party going on right now just makes no sense to me, as I can't remember a time where players across the spectrum would get as much gear as this.

Cheers

Everything you listed stops at 200, so casuals are supposed to get normal raiding gear and basically then just stop and be behind everyone else? Do you know how many invites a 200 ilvl player gets? none. Do you know which mythic keys a 200ilvl player gets ? 2-3.
Saying valor was a mistake because some players are able to catch up alts and others with less time are able to get normal ilvl raiding loot when there's still 30 ilvls to get, is ignorant.
Go away, you're dumb. Always making moronic posts

[Argorwal]

Everything you listed stops at 200, so casuals are supposed to get normal raiding gear and basically then just stop and be behind everyone else? Do you know how many invites a 200 ilvl player gets? none. Do you know which mythic keys a 200ilvl player gets ? 2-3.
Saying valor was a mistake because some players are able to catch up alts and others with less time are able to get normal ilvl raiding loot when there's still 30 ilvls to get, is ignorant.
Go away, you're dumb. Always making moronic posts

It’s amazing how those low 200 players are never able to just group up with each other and progress together in a chill, casual environment.

Especially when people keep saying they are the vast majority.

[Tadkins]

It’s amazing how those low 200 players are never able to just group up with each other and progress together in a chill, casual environment.

Especially when people keep saying they are the vast majority.

I'd like to find people like that, but it's not always easy. I've been trying to find a good, inclusive, kind, non-judgmental guild or community for the last few months. I'm convinced at this point they don't exist and that every group is going to worship the warcraftlog or raiderio machine.

[varren]

This was always going to be a side effect of removing titan/warforging. In Legion/BFA you could infinitely fish for item upgrade procs even as a mega casual who never partook in premade group content. Now in SL there is essentially a 200ish ilvl hard cap for non premade players.

The best items should always come from high end group content, but there should be something for the casuals to feel like they're at least making a little progress in their characters.

[ellieg]

I'd like to find people like that, but it's not always easy. I've been trying to find a good, inclusive, kind, non-judgmental guild or community for the last few months. I'm convinced at this point they don't exist and that every group is going to worship the warcraftlog or raiderio machine.

Just start your own group and don't invite anyone over 200

[Tadkins]

Just start your own group and don't invite anyone over 200

Confidence issues kind of prevent that. I just want to find a guild or a community.

[kamuimac]

That boat sailed years ago. The game is now mostly people who check in for new expansions then check out after leveling and long-haulers. You could have written that post 10 years ago in the frantic days of "New MMO X will be a WoW-Killer." It's as wrong now as it was then.

sorry but this is just nonsense

those people give a chance to wow each time and time after time they are dissapointed because for years casuals have been treated as 2nd rate citizens in wow

when a game is actively disencouraging its biggest part of playerbase from playing ofc its loosing people.

this happens when game is catered only for hardcores.

if it was truth then FF14 wouldnt gain nearly 1,5 mln active accounts in last months when wow kept loosing subs as it didnt release new expansion . yet it did gain them

why ? because its casual friendly. wow isnt.

and system like this abonation of valor are nothing but a sad mockery of those people done by blizzard.

[LordTakeo]

Is the new system a mistake? Honestly I don't know. My gut tells me they should of never capped mythic+ ilv so low but rather raised it to 226 from pushing very high keys (18+ for example) as well as having loot drops simmilar to past expansions rather then the nerfed tedious drops we have now.

What alot of people forget is, that you already get 226 gear from M+.
Just once a week, from the Vault.
Grindable Mythic loot will trivialize the Mythic raid, and accelerate the gearing exhaustion even more.
Idk, I like Valor so far.

Edit: I kinda feel the FF14 argument is moot, since trial accounts are counted in this one.
I just can't stick with this game for long. Gear is boring, there is fuckall to do once you actually did most of the jobs and reps. I miss something like M+ in there, because the 'raids' offer a bit too few bosses and challenges for my taste. And I'm only an HC raider in Wow. Even tho I love the visuals and the music in FF14 savage raids.

Edit edit: Shadowbringers lost alot of subs aswell after it's first month. It's not an uncommon sight for MMO's. Yoshida even said it's "okay to wait for new content and unsub".


But I digress.

[Argorwal]

Confidence issues kind of prevent that. I just want to find a guild or a community.

Look at your server on wowprogress and join one that is only doing normal or maybe part heroic. The chill casual players are in the lower tier content.

What server are you on?

[Tadkins]

Look at your server on wowprogress and join one that is only doing normal or maybe part heroic. The chill casual players are in the lower tier content.

What server are you on?

It's going to very likely be Moon Guard Alliance when I come back to the game. I kind of want to get into the RP side of things but I'd also like to find a consistent group of players to run M+ and raid with. Which is why finding a community would probably be better as MG isn't really known for its raiding scene.

[Argorwal]

It's going to very likely be Moon Guard Alliance when I come back to the game. I kind of want to get into the RP side of things but I'd also like to find a consistent group of players to run M+ and raid with. Which is why finding a community would probably be better as MG isn't really known for its raiding scene.

Moon guard US has 90 guilds listed on WoWprogress at 7/10 heroic or better, and 163 guilds at 7/10 normal or better.

Sounds like A LOT of options for casual play.

[Drusin]

Could be better to say queuers and non-queuers. If i can't hit a button and do it then i ain't gonna be doing it.

You're right! I think I'll be calling myself that from now on, it's much more clear to say I only do queue content than saying "casual"

[Tadkins]

Moon guard US has 90 guilds listed on WoWprogress at 7/10 heroic or better, and 163 guilds at 7/10 normal or better.

Sounds like A LOT of options for casual play.

I'm just afraid that they won't be what I'm looking for, that they won't accept me, etc etc.

[Argorwal]

I'm just afraid that they won't be what I'm looking for, that they won't accept me, etc etc.

If you want to be part of a community or guild, at some point that involves you talking to people.

That’s just life.

[Tadkins]

If you want to be part of a community or guild, at some point that involves you talking to people.

That’s just life.

I know. I'm just so notoriously bad at talking to people, and my judge of character is so horrible, that I keep finding myself in do-nothing or unhelpfui guilds. I end up leaving and the cycle repeats itself, usually with a chunk of money lost as a server and/or faction transfer fee.

I know most folks would just say "the common denominator is you" without any real offer of help or advice, but it still gets exhausting trying to find a group you can fit in with. I do often wonder if I'm just meant to be alone forever, and whether or not I should quit this game because I don't feel like I have a place here.

[Doffen]

I fully disagree. Wrath was far more casual friendly than any of the last 3 expansions and so were WoD, MoP and Cata too. It was extremely easy and straight forward to get into raids and in these expansions there were multiple sources that awarded normal raid level gear (dungeons, professions and even open world content). After the normal raid ilvl gear the only upgrade was heroic raiding gear and that's it. In SL for example you can casually get to let's say ilvl200, but somewhere at this point most people get "stuck" and progressing further (M+, heroic, mythic raiding) becomes much more difficult.

- - - Updated - - -



You could get T10 (ICC raid gear; ilvl253) by doing only dungeons, although there was a cap, so it took a while. You could however spam dungeons indefinitely and get T9 (TOC raid gear; ilvl245)

You don't get my point. Yeah, raid, but that was it. It was raid or die. Last expansions has improved that immensely with casual content outside of it so casuals dont have to raid to do content in the game.

[kamuimac]

I know. I'm just so notoriously bad at talking to people, and my judge of character is so horrible, that I keep finding myself in do-nothing or unhelpfui guilds. I end up leaving and the cycle repeats itself, usually with a chunk of money lost as a server and/or faction transfer fee.

I know most folks would just say "the common denominator is you" without any real offer of help or advice, but it still gets exhausting trying to find a group you can fit in with. I do often wonder if I'm just meant to be alone forever, and whether or not I should quit this game because I don't feel like I have a place here.

nah in this case common denominator are majority of guilds.

people spread this myth how guilds invite people 24/7 to do content - and reality is in most of guild there are very small cliques usually its 4-5 raiders who indeed do stuff together - but only with themsleves while ignoring everyone else. yes sometimes when they lack 1 or 2 people they invite other people - but even then its usually some other raider.

yes once in blue moon when they are bored they may do low content on some low geared alt . as long as they dont have anything to farm on high geared alts.

why is it like that ? most wow players are adoults busy on their lives who dont play wow 24/7 like streamers who preach this nonsense how guilds are solving all humanity problems.

[Tadkins]

nah in this case common denominator are majority of guilds.

people spread this myth how guilds invite people 24/7 to do content - and reality is in most of guild there are very small cliques usually its 4-5 raiders who indeed do stuff together - but only with themsleves while ignoring everyone else. yes sometimes when they lack 1 or 2 people they invite other people - but even then its usually some other raider.

yes once in blue moon when they are bored they may do low content on some low geared alt . as long as they dont have anything to farm on high geared alts.

why is it like that ? most wow players are adoults busy on their lives who dont play wow 24/7 like streamers who preach this nonsense how guilds are solving all humanity problems.

That is where I struggle a lot. It really is hard to find a genuine inclusive guild. There's always that period of "new guy" ostracization, every guild has its exclusive cliques, and at this point I'm just about afraid to ask for help in any of them because I'm so used to crickets in guildchats whenever I try.

Maybe they do exist, they're just really hard to stumble upon and for every failure to find a decent guild, that's more money out of pocket typically.

[kamuimac]

That is where I struggle a lot. It really is hard to find a genuine inclusive guild. There's always that period of "new guy" ostracization, every guild has its exclusive cliques, and at this point I'm just about afraid to ask for help in any of them because I'm so used to crickets in guildchats whenever I try.

Maybe they do exist, they're just really hard to stumble upon and for every failure to find a decent guild, that's more money out of pocket typically.

its not about osctricization of new guy

its about normal people not having time to play with others because they are busy doing their own stuff in game.

when we were in high school/univeristy we all had time to play 20-30 hours a week . then we all indeed had time to do stuff with other. now ? most dont have more then 6-8 hours a week to play so they have to be extremly efficient with it due to how hard game become.

then there come new people - ask few times to do stuff with them when barely anyone is online or mid raid and when nobody answer them they leave to look for this new magical guild when others will do stuff with them . because streamers told them thats how they should do it. and guess what ? ofc if you are a streamer plenty people are willing to do stuff with you to appear in your stream . but for average person in wow ? thats not their experience.