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  1. #321
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrivateSmiley View Post
    Another Tinker thread, who would have guessed????
    It isn't a Tinker thread, but okay.

    Anyway: how about no?
    Ranged tanking is not something that would work in wow. What are the mobs hitting if it isnt you?
    A Barrier, or your pet. Read the OP.

    Would create more issues than solve, especially if you added Melee DPS into the mix
    How would melee DPS be effected at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    @Teriz

    What’s your preferred range style tank?

    The hybrid range/melee of jumping into and out of range in to resolve movement requirements?

    Or

    A full range tank where the controller is immune to mechanics/damage and everything that happens to the tank unit is transferred to the controller.

    To solve the issue of movement the tank unit can teleport/dash to a new location to deal with movement requirements.

    And for damage concerns the unit abilities are ranged 0 - 20 yards to deal with sudden movement from the second tank. While teleport/dash is on CD
    I don't really have a preference. The goal is to simply have a tank spec that is doing it's damage rotation completely at range 30-45 yards away from the target. As long as that's accomplished, we're good.

  2. #322
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rootsbum View Post
    An ability that calls the AI to the controlled char in a rush?
    I Imagine the chars having to be in X range of each other
    Again, I'll refer to the Sire Denathrius' fight: Imagine the AI running non-stop in a straight line toward you... while Remornia is slashing around non-stop around the very narrow corridors.

    Or through one of the earthquake zones in Sludgefist. Or through the fire in the Kael'Thas fight. :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yep, moving on from the definition of what is and isn't ranged, because it's semantic nonsense....
    It's not "semantic nonsense". You always try to dismiss what people say as "semantic nonsense".

    And positioning is dealt with by merging the PC with the barrier or by moving the barrier.
    So in heavy movement fights the "ranged" tank is nothing but a melee tank? Once again, completely defeating the purpose of being ranged.

    So a class taking reduced damage from a barrier is OP/UP now?
    It is underpowered because not only the class is still not evading melee damage despite being at range, but it has to still contend with everything a tank character in melee has to look out for, but also everything a ranged character in range needs to look out for.

    Both of which are dealt with. The PC takes damage from the barrier, which forces them to worry about boss mechanics.
    Same as above.

    The ranged tank does have to worry about positioning, but that's every tank.
    Then you're admitting that this "ranged tank" thing brings almost zero pros and a heap of cons.

    I've admitted that positioning the barrier is an extra level of complexity, but once again I feel that it is a level of complexity that players would be willing to deal with to play a true ranged tanking spec.
    Except it's not a "true ranged tanking spec" any way you slice it, because you're still taking melee damage. That's like saying a holy priest standing with the melee group is "melee healing".

    And I focused on a technology class/spec first because it's easier to conceptualize, and is potentially free from standard WoW pet based mechanics, which were major hang ups earlier in the thread.
    None of that changes the fact that, once again, you're making your fifth tinker thread in the span of three months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm not making the argument that taking melee damage means you're no longer ranged. Someone else is.
    I am saying that all the ideas you've proposed this far make the whole "ranged" part of "ranged tanking" completely moot and meaningless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You're also tanking the boss at ranged, since you're controlling the boss' positioning at range.
    Which is either:
    • completely pointless because you're still taking melee damage through feedback from the barrier;
    • a whole new layer of complexity and micro-management for absolutely zero gain.

    Or both. My money is on both.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    A Barrier, or your pet.
    - - - Updated - - -
    Then at that point it is no longer a ranged tank.

    It would be a utility class or a pet based class.
    If the character that I am controlling 100% of the time is not the target of the mobs the vast majority of the time then i am not the tank.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Maybe. Again, along the lines of Rexxar in HotS.
    HoTS is a MOBA, this is an MMO, the two concepts don't play well together. Misha wouldn't be capable of the positioning requirements WoW demands of tanks on higher difficulties. Misha's "tanking" ability comes in the form of CC, which isn't how WoW tanking works. It's also important to remember that even in HoTS Rexxar is just a "Bruiser" not a "Tank". He's better at playing the solo lane, and doing camps than actually tanking.

    Additionally Rexxar's fantasy is literally already in the game in the form of BM hunters.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    ...Uh, dude, i never said it did. I was posting on topic - not talking about something that kinda sorta maybe almost kinda sorta happened (pst - it never happened). I was talking about PETS because that is something OP is suggesting, and I am talking about tanking at range, because its literally the topic of the thread.
    You quoted me and you were talking about pets. I never said a single thing about pet tanking. So why the hell would you direct that at me?

    The topic is "ranged tanking in WoW" not "pet tanking in WoW". If you're having a conversation with someone else about pet tanking, talk to them about it because I don't give a shit. Stop wasting my time with your incoherent tangents.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yeah to be clear, I wasn't "avin a go at ya" or anything, just agreeing with you. It just would not work, and anyone who has done any tanking at all should understand this. As you said, it might work if the game was completely changed to accommodate it, but so "could" a raid that was actually a racetrack and we all drove cars, and everyone replaced their mechanical keyboards with direct drive wheel and pedals with shifter.

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    You seem to get the crux of the issue - positioning. No fucking way any tank would say "oh yeah, i can totally just click to move my pet and its not an issue at all! Think about it - the amount of tiny little movements tanks are making all the time to ensure the boss is positioned correctly - imagine doing that with click to move, while simultaneously moving your actual character to avoid mechanics as well.

    The reason hunter/warlock pets work, is that they take basically ZERO damage from boss abilities, and only ever have to behave in a reactionary way - they always try to get behind the boss, and chill there.
    Fair, but let's give it the benefit of the doubt for the moment - let's say we could make the positioning work, we just have to fill in how to do it.
    How would you start? I gave my take, but i'd like for more people to approach this positively, as it's not easy and the crowd might just have a creative spark of genius in between them necessary to solve such a question.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which is either:
    • completely pointless because you're still taking melee damage through feedback from the barrier;
    • a whole new layer of complexity and micro-management for absolutely zero gain.

    Or both. My money is on both.
    This was pretty much my entire take on the concept a few pages back. What Teriz is trying to describe has no upside. It's just wall to wall negatives. If some entity is in melee doing the actual tanking for you, this is just melee tanking with extra steps. It just doesn't work.

    If I'm trying my hardest to be constructive and make this work, I come up with something like the following. I'll even theme it around his favorite pet project.
    You're a dude riding a little mech. When you're on the mech, you're melee.

    You can charge forward on the mech to engage. Make it do an AoE when it reaches the target to establish threat.
    You can drop a beacon, like an Ox Statue, and the mech will track to that location. You can add flavor. Make it pulse aoe shotgun blasts or something as it tracks.
    You can call the mech back to you and remount, regaining access to the melee toolkit.
    You can "disengage" off the back of the mech, leaving it in place while you kick out to 20 yards away and do your ranged business. We'll say you explode where you land.

    As an oh-shit, you can have a 'merge' button that treats the mech like a Lock portal. You blink to it and remount. Put it on a CD to incentivize not fucking up.

    Start mounted to establish threat. Dismount to maintain and mitigate damage. Beacon / Remount / Recall to reposition and pick up adds. We can just say health bars are linked so we don't have to revamp every raid frame ever made. The same damage can't hit you twice, so you're never taking double damage because you're both standing in shit. Or something.

    Someone mentioned the first pull of Spires as an example. Charge in. You AoE to establish threat. 180, dismount to land in the next pack, which does another AoE and snaps that threat onto the mech. You can tunnel damage into these as they run to the mech, and now you're tanking both packs via the mech while standing at range.

    Any threat you generate just goes to the mech. Positioning isn't really any more complicated than playing a Veng DH. Robo-charge is equivalent to jumping in. Calling robot back to you is equivalent to jumping out. The beacon-robo-track thing is equivalent to dropping an Ox Statue and taunting it when someone pulls aggro. Or dropping a sigil.

    I'm not saying this is a good idea. It sounds like a real mess. But, it could work, if you take out all the janky pet nonsense, or the keybinds for moving some nonsense shield.
    Charge forward. Disengage from mech. AoE "statue" that robot tracks to. Recall mech. Make each ability do stuff that is actually useful rotationally and not just added nonsense to make the idea work and you might have a starting point.

    If someone chooses to respond to this, please try not to let your animosity toward Teriz and his bullshit splash onto me. I'm very delicate :3
    Last edited by Henako; 2021-03-13 at 01:55 AM.

  8. #328
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    This was pretty much my entire take on the concept a few pages back. What Teriz is trying to describe has no upside. It's just wall to wall negatives. If some entity is in melee doing the actual tanking for you, this is just melee tanking with extra steps. It just doesn't work.

    If I'm trying my hardest to be constructive and make this work, I come up with something like the following. I'll even theme it around his favorite pet project.
    You're a dude riding a little mech. When you're on the mech, you're melee.

    You can charge forward on the mech to engage. Make it do an AoE when it reaches the target to establish threat.
    You can drop a beacon, like an Ox Statue, and the mech will track to that location. You can add flavor. Make it pulse aoe shotgun blasts or something as it tracks.
    You can call the mech back to you and remount, regaining access to the melee toolkit.
    You can "disengage" off the back of the mech, leaving it in place while you kick out to 20 yards away and do your ranged business. We'll say you explode where you land.

    As an oh-shit, you can have a 'merge' button that treats the mech like a Lock portal. You blink to it and remount. Put it on a CD to incentivize not fucking up.


    Start mounted to establish threat. Dismount to maintain and mitigate damage. Beacon / Remount / Recall to reposition and pick up adds. We can just say health bars are linked so we don't have to revamp every raid frame ever made. The same damage can't hit you twice, so you're never taking double damage because you're both standing in shit. Or something.

    Someone mentioned the first pull of Spires as an example. Charge in. You AoE to establish threat. 180, dismount to land in the next pack, which does another AoE and snaps that threat onto the mech. You can tunnel damage into these as they run to the mech, and now you're tanking both packs via the mech while standing at range.

    Any threat you generate just goes to the mech. Positioning isn't really any more complicated than playing a Veng DH. Robo-charge is equivalent to jumping in. Calling robot back to you is equivalent to jumping out. The beacon-robo-track thing is equivalent to dropping an Ox Statue and taunting it when someone pulls aggro. Or dropping a sigil.

    I'm not saying this is a good idea. It sounds like a real mess. But, it could work, if you take out all the janky pet nonsense, or the keybinds for moving some nonsense shield.
    Charge forward. Disengage from mech. AoE "statue" that robot tracks to. Recall mech. Make each ability do stuff that is actually useful rotationally and not just added nonsense to make the idea work and you might have a starting point.

    If someone chooses to respond to this, please try not to let your animosity toward Teriz and his bullshit splash onto me. I'm very delicate :3
    The whole problem with this idea is that the "ranged" tank has to be melee. Boss fights are hectic, and many demand almost near constant movement, even if it's just a couple steps to the side or back. For example: the second fight in Spires of Ascension or the last boss in Sanguine Depths., meaning the "ranged" tank will end up in melee most of the time, which is why I'm saying the whole "go back into melee for whatever reason" negates the whole "ranged" part of "ranged tanking".

    And as for positioning, yes, it is very different than a vengeance demon hunter. Because positioning a DH is different than a ranged character manually positioning their pets. And on top of that, while at range, the "ranged" tank now has to worry about constant repositioning their remote-piloted mech... and themselves, because they'll have to worry not only about the mechanics a tank character has to contend with, but also with the mechanics the ranged has to contend with.

    Let's use your example and imagine it fighting Mythic Sludgefist. Who would the "ranged" tank be linked to? The ranged? If that's the case, whenever the tank has to "merge" with its mech again, that's one chain being snapped and two characters dead. Would it be linked to the other tank, as how it is for the mechanic right now? Then the ranged tank has to remain in melee all the time, negating the "ranged" part.

    What you're describing is akin to riding a bike: you can ride it without your hands on the handlebars with no problems when you're going on a straight line without obstacles. But when you gotta weave past several obstacles or go down a flight of stairs, you gotta put your hands on the bike.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-03-13 at 02:07 PM.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    To some extent that's true now though isn't it? Most high level raiding on the player/raid team side consists of three components: 1) Figure out a strategy that 'solves' for a solution to the scripted behavior of the boss, 2) Get geared up to the point where that strategy is viable in terms of damage and survivability and 3) Execute that strategy perfectly (or as perfectly as possible).

    I understand your point but I don't see a lot of radical variation with respect to how tanks handle most fights.
    Not really. Blizzard may have an intended solution for the fight, but they generally don't interfere with other solutions so long as they don't outright cheat or abuse coding errors/limitations.

    This would do just that. You either follow what they intend, or you're stuck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    If someone chooses to respond to this, please try not to let your animosity toward Teriz and his bullshit splash onto me. I'm very delicate :3
    Frankly, my primary question would be why not just stay melee the whole time. There doesn't seem to be much reason to go outside, and you'd constantly have to remount anyway, so just staying inside would usually be easier.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Snip
    Hey, I didn't say it was a good idea. I said it was the best I could come up with if I was trying to make Teriz's dumb idea work. I agree that it would cause loads of problems and have no real benefit. What I've described is a lot closer to a workable idea than some weird energy field mechanic that moves laterally and has four keybinds devoted to just its positioning, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Frankly, my primary question would be why not just stay melee the whole time. There doesn't seem to be much reason to go outside, and you'd constantly have to remount anyway, so just staying inside would usually be easier.
    You'd have to design in the incentive. Higher threat gen from range, but combining reloads your short CD defensives. Something. I'm not a game developer.

    I agree that there's no need for something like this, and it likely wouldn't work. I think it could work, but it would be a hot mess for three expansions until it finally got figured out.

    I'm just trying to be constructive!
    Last edited by Henako; 2021-03-13 at 06:34 PM.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    You'd have to design in the incentive. Higher threat gen from range, but combining reloads your short CD defensives. Something. I'm not a game developer.

    I agree that there's no need for something like this, and it likely wouldn't work. I think it could work, but it would be a hot mess for three expansions until it finally got figured out.

    I'm just trying to be constructive!
    If you have to actively force people to use the mechanics, you've got a design problem already. The incentive needs to be inherent to the design, otherwise people will just go looking for ways to circumvent it.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    If you have to actively force people to use the mechanics, you've got a design problem already. The incentive needs to be inherent to the design, otherwise people will just go looking for ways to circumvent it.
    You literally just described nearly every mechanic that deals damage in the game.

  13. #333
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    Hey, I didn't say it was a good idea. I said it was the best I could come up with if I was trying to make Teriz's dumb idea work. I agree that it would cause loads of problems and have no real benefit. What I've described is a lot closer to a workable idea than some weird energy field mechanic that moves laterally and has four keybinds devoted to just its positioning, though.
    Well, yes, what you described is indeed workable. But like I said: it still doesn't address the underlying issue of a "ranged tank" having to engage in melee, sometimes through most of a fight, which negates the 'ranged' part. It's no fault of your own, really. It's just how the game is designed.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes, what you described is indeed workable. But like I said: it still doesn't address the underlying issue of a "ranged tank" having to engage in melee, sometimes through most of a fight, which negates the 'ranged' part. It's no fault of your own, really. It's just how the game is designed.
    Yeah, I agree with you. I think that's fine though, yeah? if you wanted to try to make something like this work, it's likely a requirement, and I think it would be fine for some fights to skew more toward melee form / ranged form. Regardless, there isn't really room for something like this in WoW, as things are now.

    Mostly, I was hoping Teriz might see this and see that you can take other people's ideas and adapt your own without being a total cumquat about it.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    You literally just described nearly every mechanic that deals damage in the game.
    No, you want to avoid those because they deal damage. Not because they do something on top of that so you have to avoid them.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    just added nonsense to make the idea work and you might have a starting point.

    If someone chooses to respond to this, please try not to let your animosity toward Teriz and his bullshit splash onto me. I'm very delicate :3
    The "Pet" as Teriz put it would have to share the same health pool. Basically channel eye of the beast back and forth between the two characters. The character channeling will only receive damage from single target attacks... Maybe have a window where you can split the heath temporarily...Instead of channeling maybe stances would be better... idk. I think it can happen if done right.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Klueade View Post
    The "Pet" as Teriz put it would have to share the same health pool. Basically channel eye of the beast back and forth between the two characters. The character channeling will only receive damage from single target attacks... Maybe have a window where you can split the heath temporarily...Instead of channeling maybe stances would be better... idk. I think it can happen if done right.
    But...why?

    That's just melee tanking with more steps, complications, risks, down sides and with no advantages or perks.

    The only way I see it working is if bosses stayed at range, which SOME do, or they're locked in place. But for bosses that attack in melee a "ranged" tank just doesn't make sense in the current game design. Not without making it WAY more complicated than it needs to be (that's me saying it COULD possibly maybe, potentially, kinda work with a lot of finesse on Blizz's side...I just don't see it being plausible).

  18. #338
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The only way I see it working is if bosses stayed at range, which SOME do, or they're locked in place.
    The only two bosses that do that that come to mind is Lady Deathwhisper in ICC and Kel'Thuzard in Naxxramas. But guess what? Even those fights have melee adds. :/
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The only two bosses that do that that come to mind is Lady Deathwhisper in ICC and Kel'Thuzard in Naxxramas. But guess what? Even those fights have melee adds. :/
    There have been a few. Gorefiend in HFC, that fat pig in Waycrest Manor, Il'gynoth in Emerald Nightmare, etc... but you're right they all had melee adds. But the boss could be tanked at range, and if the "ranged" tank had melee capabilities (which would be absolutely ridiculous if it didn't) then they could tank effectively. But again, what's the point of a ranged tank if they're just going to be in melee? Or if they have some gimmick that puts a pet or something in melee range with a lot of hassle and complications to do the same job the other tanks can already do.

    Ranged tanking would be pointless.

  20. #340
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    There have been a few. Gorefiend in HFC, that fat pig in Waycrest Manor, Il'gynoth in Emerald Nightmare, etc...
    They're not quite examples as they're bosses with melee attacks. If the tank is not in melee range, they paint the pavement with the melee DPS. I specifically mentioned Lady Deathwhisper and Kel'Thuzad because they're bosses with ranged attacks (spells) that do not depend on having someone being in melee all the time. But, then again, there's the adds.

    But again, what's the point of a ranged tank if they're just going to be in melee? Or if they have some gimmick that puts a pet or something in melee range with a lot of hassle and complications to do the same job the other tanks can already do.

    Ranged tanking would be pointless.
    That's my entire contention, here. I have yet to see a "ranged tank" idea that does either make the "ranged" part completely moot, or makes the class overly complex for almost zero benefit. Or both.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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