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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    This matters even less.

    Because to make your analogy more accurate, it would be more like a person falling comatose, their family determining they'd leave him a vegetable, only for them to make a miraculous recovery and find their house, all their worldly possessions, their job, their family all gone - All moved on without them, basically left them for dead and lived their own lives. Their possessions and home sold to the highest bidder, their family no longer "their" family and instead another person's family entirely.

    You'd be damned sure that person would wake up and think "What the fuck, I want my life back." The Forsaken didn't "abandon the house they paid rent on," they were forcefully evicted by the landlord's son (who had no claim to their apartment at that time, but when "forced eviction" accounts to "blatant murder and necromancy" it's hard to make a direct comparison), so of course when they returned saying "Hey, this is our home" they expected to have their home again. When they then found that no one was living there (throwing your "another tenant" point out the window...) reclaiming land they rightfully owned and never rightfully lost, makes sense.
    less falling comatose and more "lost our mind and became mass murderers intent on mindless genocide" which kinda puts a hamper on just...being ok with them going back to normal.
    Professor Johnston often said that if you didn't know history, you didn't know anything. You were a leaf that didn't know it was part of a tree. ~Michael Crichton, Timeline

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post

    Nobody is saying anyone has to forgive those people. But that doesn't change that what happened to them is not their fault, nor within their control, and they can't be held responsible for actions which they themselves did not have control over.
    Nobody is blaming them for the things they did as Scourge. The thing is that they did not change their methods AFTER regaining their free will. They experiment on humans, raise them into their own tortured existence, cut up the bodies to make Abominations, mass murder the living with Blight... their actions are just as disgusting as they were when they were Scourge.
    Their action are in fact so vile that Sylvanas knew she had to hide them from the Horde or be kicked out.

    So the point is not that they are blamed for their past and thus denied land. The point is that they have DECIDED to be evil monsters and no one is safe when they are left running around. Even worse, most of the few decent ones among them were killed by Sylvanas at Arathi.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Which does not at all change the claim of who's land it rightfully is. Horrible people have deeds to land too.
    True but in this world we kick those people out of their land and kill them for their crimes. Like Blackmoore. By your logic we were wrong to attack Argus, because it was "rightfully" the property of the Legion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Lordaeron doesn't belong to humans just because undead are horrid, disgusting, vile creatures.
    No, it belongs to the humans because it was human kingdom under Terenas Menethil. Just because the Forsaken took advantage of the Scourge and murdered the last remaining humans under Garithos and then some of the farmers and other innocents, does not mean their claim to the land is legitimate and their actions after taking it only proved that no one should tolerate them there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    One might even argue the situation they were placed in AFTER becoming undead, what with having lost their entire lives prior, may have even accelerated that descent into madness, or made choosing such atrocities all the easier.
    Sure, the trauma had something to do with it. But it's no excuse for all the atrocities they commited. Undead like the Ebon Blade have not become mass murderers after they got their free will back. People like Alonsus Faol even chose to remain a Priest of the Light...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Stormwind humans have no problem killing undead who may or may not have potentially had something to do with the deaths of some living creatures - Why should Forsaken have a problem with killing humans, who purposefully cast them out, hunted them, still don't view them as their former selves to this day, and willfully shout about how they don't deserve the unlife they were cursed with?
    You have it backwards. The Forsaken murdered humans before Stormwind even knew they exist as a group. And since Sylvanas purposefully did not go herself to explain the situation and instead chose to send people that to ANYONE that lived through the Scourge has to look like just a leftover ghoul... The result was clear.
    Last edited by Raisei; 2021-03-13 at 02:02 PM.

  4. #164
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    You don't get to bulldoze over an entire playable race and get to call it fair. The Forsaken deserve to keep Lordaeron the same way night elves get Darkshore and Ashenvale. This is not up to discussion.
    Actually, it is up for discussion. One, because you posted here in a public forum; and two, because not everyone agrees with you.

    Are you looking for an echo chamber, perhaps?

    Anyways. The forsaken (well, the Horde as a whole, actually, but we're talking specifically about the forsaken here) were the aggressors. So by realistic standards, they have to pay reparations in terms of loss of territory or resources. Or both. Because that is the result when you lose a war that you started. That's kind of like a police officer catching a thief in the act as he's trying to abscond with a TV from the house he just broke into, and instead of arresting the thief, the officer just lets him go.

    But, since this is a game, realistic standards can't always be applied and there needs to be some modicum of equity, so technically if one player faction gains something, the other has to gain something as well. Which is why we would never have a race defect one faction for the other, like it was teased back in MoP with the blood elves wanting to leave the Horde, or have one faction gain a new race in a new expansion while the other gets nothing, for example.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  5. #165
    Hey now you still have Silverpine
    Do you hear the voices too?

  6. #166
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    See this is a big problem with these dumb faction war storylines. Since both sides are playable, it has to be fair. No no no, fuck that. War isn't fair. Especially if you start the war and then lose to the enemy. The orcs were put into internment camps for less. And it is always them. Always orcs or undead. Gul'dan, Ner'Zhul, Garrosh, Putress (if we honestly believe Sylvanas wasn't in on it) or Sylvanas herself.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Night elves were allowed to relocate to Hyjal and conquered Darkshore in a one sided scenario. When will the playable undead get their own scenario for Tirisfal? Lordaeron belongs to the forsaken always and forever. No i don’t want replies from alliance zealots. Stay out of my topic.
    euuuhhh you do know that the scream queen kinda blew it up with toxic stuff right?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    See this is a big problem with these dumb faction war storylines. Since both sides are playable, it has to be fair. No no no, fuck that. War isn't fair.
    I'll grant you that on both points. If factions made sense then the forsaken wouldn't exist. And "fairness" for what it's worth, would demand a neutral faction.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Tirisfal has never belonged to the Forsaken. I don't oppose them living there, but they don't own the land.
    I still say forsaken living in the hollowed out husk of Teldrassil would be fitting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I still say forsaken living in the hollowed out husk of Teldrassil would be fitting.
    Haha im down with that.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  11. #171
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I'll grant you that on both points. If factions made sense then the forsaken wouldn't exist. And "fairness" for what it's worth, would demand a neutral faction.
    Oh definitely. A faction that bands together to support each other. For those who are awlays caught in the crossfire when the Alliance and the Horde go to war.

  12. #172
    Bloodsail Admiral Leodric's Avatar
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    Well after they bombarded Darnassus they lost that right in my eyes.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And if we didn't have the context of "The Legion is literally, currently, invading our world FROM Argus" surrounding it, yes, we'd have that crisis to deal with.

    If the enemy isn't our enemy FIRST, us invading and taking over their lands literally is a crisis of morality from the "good guys."
    The Forsaken have been the enemy of the human kingdoms for many years, guilty of many crimes against them. Just like the Legion, only at a smaller scale. So there is no crisis of morality when we take over their land. Good to see you agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The Ebon Blade haven't become mass murderers? Last I checked, Death Knights literally NEED to kill in order to not feel like their entire being is tearing them apart.
    I am not saying they are not killing. But they are not murdering farmers to steal their land, then bury them as human saplings, or abuse them for experiments. They are not blighting cities to take them from their rightful owners. The Ebon Blade has been in the buisness of defending the planet from the Lich King, the Legion and now the forces of Death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    When? The story as told suggested Sylvanas sent envoys long before she started ordering people to kill humans, and she's the one who founded the Forsaken.
    You are literally mentioning it yourself. Or did Garithos entire army commit suicide? No, they were slaughtered by the Forsaken when Sylvanas did not want to uphold her deal with him. Hundreds of Humans and Dwarfs murdered, before SW ever heard the term "Forsaken".
    According to the deal Sylvanas herself struck, Lordaeron belonged to the remnants of the kingdom lead by Garithos. Her betrayal of the deal only makes it more obvious that the land never legitimately belong to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    No leader of any political group goes in person to a meeting they know is likely to kill them. That's rather simple minded of you to consider.
    Considering she can "banshee out" whenever she wants, I'd say the threat to her was small. But even then, sending a ghoul was making sure that it would fail.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    By that same logic, the Human kingdom has been the enemy of the undead kingdoms for their entire existance, guilty of many crimes against them. So there is no crisis of morality when Forsaken plague and experiment on Humans. Good to see you agree.
    Yeah I mean if you consider warcrimes like murdering civilians and experimenting on them as normal and fine then sure. Guess I should not have assumed a Horde defender to have a normal viewpoint, ever. My mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    But as we just established above - The humans are enemies of the Forsaken, and so all of that is ok, isn't it?
    See above. Guess defending the Forsaken means one has to somehow ignore their crimes or relativate them to make it somehow acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Because she saw through his ruse, where he was going to do the exact same thing to her.
    There exists not a shred of proof for this. On the other hand we know Sylvanas was gonna betray the humans from the moment she made the deal. But hey, everything is fair game to defend those walking murdering corpses right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You're looking at a coin with two heads symbols and asking where the tails is. There is no tails. Both sides were shitty, neither was "right" and they both DESERVED to be betrayed. Garithos just happened to be the losing side in that bout, because he was incompetent on top of his shitty attitude.

    If you're on the betraying side, you don't get to complain when you get betrayed.
    Again you are making up evidence to support your point. We never heard any plan of Garithos to betray the Forsaken, we only know of one planned betrayal. Pure and simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    This is looking at her future powers and applying them to her in the past. Doesn't work. Not only do we not know if she COULD do that then, but we don't know if SHE even knew she would eventually be capable of it back then.
    Uhm, no. The Bansheeing was always part of her powers because she IS a Banshee possessing a corpse (her own).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And yes, it's dumb. It's not a bright plan. But that's how Sylvanas has always acted. She wanted to know if the Humans would trust the undead, so she sent an OBVIOUSLY undead envoy on her behalf, knowing if they found out she was undead herself while she was in their care, she was doomed. Yes, this ensured the humans saw it as only an undead - But in her opinion, they would have seen her the exact same way. Which is not unfounded given how the Humans STILL react to her.
    Oh it wasn't dumb. It wa calculated. Her clout over the Forsaken only works as long as they are not accepted by others. So she used the fears of the human empire to generate "proof" that the Forsaken could only ever turn to her.

  15. #175
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    Well after they bombarded Darnassus they lost that right in my eyes.
    Does that mean that e.g. Germans no longer have a right to live in Germany because they bombed the everliving crap out 3/4 of Europe?
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Does that mean that e.g. Germans no longer have a right to live in Germany because they bombed the everliving crap out 3/4 of Europe?
    They have no right to live in Pommern and Ostpreussen any more (unless they comply to the law of the current owners of that land [Poland]). So what's your point?
    Last edited by Plehnard; 2021-03-15 at 12:36 AM.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plehnard View Post
    They have no right to live in Pommern and Ostpreussen any more (unless they comply to the law of the current owners of that land [Poland]). So what's your point?
    I mean in general, not in one or two specific cities. So what is your point? Btw I am already aware that a part of Germany was annexed by Poland at the end of WWII, thanks for nothing oh wise one.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  18. #178
    When will the night elves get Teldrassil back?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Does that mean that e.g. Germans no longer have a right to live in Germany because they bombed the everliving crap out 3/4 of Europe?
    They still have Hillsbrad, Alterac, Silverpine.

  19. #179
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Does that mean that e.g. Germans no longer have a right to live in Germany because they bombed the everliving crap out 3/4 of Europe?
    Germany didn't nuke and abandon Berlin because they didn't want the allies to have it...

  20. #180
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Germany didn't nuke and abandon Berlin because they didn't want the allies to have it...
    The other guy was talking about Darnassus, not about the UC.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

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