Mistake in chronicle 3

[Zmagoslav]

As linked above it states nowhere that Grom won in a 1v1 battle.
All it says it's his axe that killed him... which was always the case.

Being imensely powerfull doesn't make you immune to an extreme case of axe to the head.
Even if it was a duel Grom would stand a chance... just one well aimed axe throw...

This is not DBZ after all... where having a lot of comulative power makes you immune to all lesser attacks.

[Razion]

Not all fountains of health are tied to elune, one was. What makes the rest so special is never clarified, also Illidan only every created one well, the new well of eternity.

I already think it's a bit of stretch to say these aren't Moonwells, because they're obviously incredibly similar. And still it begs the question who else is making these Fonts of Health -- and I think if it's blatantly giving us an example that at least one of these fonts are blessed by Elune it should follow that more are at the very least blessed of Elune, if not also Moonwells. We know Moonwells derive from the waters of the Well of Eternity, and that Illidan assisted in the creation of the Moonwells because he did make that second Well for the waters to be taken from at the very least (if he didn't leave these wells around himself, which he very well might have -- he filled vials, he can spare a drop for a Moonwell).

I can understand why you maybe want to imply why they're different -- because after all, there are corrupted Chaos fonts in Outland, which would kind of imply that some kind of Elune-blessed waters were on Outland at one point as well if this were the case. I don't think that's necessarily something we can say didn't ever happen. There are a number of druidic societies in old Draenor that could have had that moon worship. I mean heck, the Shadowmoon clan basically does this close to the expiration of Draenor when it was converted to Outland anyway. Maybe that can be seen as a bit of a stretch. But I don't think back then they were accounting for all these particulars to be torn apart like this, so maybe we just have to accept that maybe it wasn't meant this to be taken that far, or for any of this to imply any of these other conclusions like Lordaeron or Orc druids worshipping Elune (or a moon, at the very least).

But still, this is kind of the conclusion (them being Moonwells) is a fair one to someone who would be going through the game normally. There's obviously a lot of similarities to the fountains and the Moonwells. I think anyone just watching the cinematic with Manoroth or even reading the books where he did the deed would be under the impression that the pools they're referring to are Moonwells because they're in ancient Night Elf territory and because they're trying to draw out Cenarius.

[Combatbutler]

I already think it's a bit of stretch to say these aren't Moonwells, because they're obviously incredibly similar. We know Moonwells derive from the waters of the Well of Eternity, and that Illidan assisted in the creation of the Moonwells because he did make that second Well for the waters to be taken from at the very least (if he didn't leave these wells around himself, which he very well might have -- he filled vials, he can spare a drop for a Moonwell).

Yes Illidan created the second well, first to get his addiction withdrawal suppressed and to use it against another legion invasion, but why would he waste his time on creating these wells especially in parts of the world he did not visit in the time frame he had the vials, he only got them right before the whole thing imploded, so how was he supposed to travel across the planet planting "moonwells" at random?

Moonwells are an entire new night elf creation, after the second well was created, despite originally debating how evil it was arguing for its destruction, but held back because they feared it could cause another sundering, so the dragons plant a tree on it, to keep its powers contained ,so only after the empire days did the purple knife ears in their infinite wisdom, decide to plaster the land with magical arcane wells, despite literally planting a tree on it to contain its arcane powers, so they can spread and use its arcane powers.


Ultimately Elune is ancient and not just worshiped by night elves, she could have blessed any fountain true, but it still wouldn't make these fountains a moonwell, also any other powerful deity could have also blessed different wells, or titan keepers, or a mortal channeled power into one at one point, maybe an elemental, all you need to create such wells in the warcraft universe is power.

I can understand why you maybe want to imply why they're different -- because after all, there are corrupted Chaos fonts in Outland, which would kind of imply that some kind of Elune-blessed waters were on Outland at one point as well if this were the case. I don't think that's necessarily something we can say didn't ever happen. There are a number of druidic societies in old Draenor that could have had that moon worship. I mean heck, the Shadowmoon clan basically does this close to the expiration of Draenor when it was converted to Outland anyway. Maybe that can be seen as a bit of a stretch. But I don't think back then they were accounting for all these particulars to be torn apart like this, so maybe we just have to accept that maybe it wasn't meant this to be taken that far, or for any of this to imply any of these other conclusions like Lordaeron or Orc druids worshipping Elune (or a moon, at the very least).

But still, this is kind of the conclusion (them being Moonwells) is a fair one to someone who would be going through the game normally. There's obviously a lot of similarities to the fountains and the Moonwells. I think anyone just watching the cinematic with Manoroth or even reading the books where he did the deed would be under the impression that the pools they're referring to are Moonwells because they're in ancient Night Elf territory and because they're trying to draw out Cenarius.

You are making far too much of a deal out of this, such fountains aren't really that remarkable, nor do they need an explanation, because the lazy way blizz has set them up they can come a dime a dozen. if you have a skilled caster with power in their hand. Just tap it to a ley line and voila, fountain is magical.

[Destructor]

WARCRAFT GAMES >>> Chronicles, novels, comics etc
Some people mistakenly believe that Warcraft books have priority over games in lore. I want to explain something briefly, why they are wrong... Warcraft games have precedence over chronicles. Why? Games: old Warcraft 1,2,3 but also WoW are saint, they constitute foundation of Warcraft universe, they engage a lot of people to creating a plot. And book is only a personal view of one writter connected somehow with blizzard on the events in warcraft history. In case of Warcraft games are always "first ones" thats why it is impossible now to buy book in order to find out what will happen with Anduin in the Maw. Events in games determine future books, not vice versa. But books are good to fulfill the events which don't have place in games and between parts of games.

[Magical Mudcrab]

As far as I know, Cenarius never fought Archimonde directly. Given that you referenced the War of the Ancients novels, you're probably mistaking him for his father, Malorne.

Hell, even Malorne didn't even put up that great of a fight. Archimonde is a spellcaster and still broke his neck with relative ease.

[Houle]

I don't care much what you think of Kosaka, it's still canon. And where did he go wrong?

I know that Mannoroth is dumb, that does not mean that he is 1 by 1 weaker than the Lich King. Kosak also said that the Lich King is smarter than Lei Shen, but Lei Shen is still stronger.

- - - Updated - - -



Favorite characters? My favorite characters are Azshara, KilJaeden, Maiev, Kindi (Jaina's apprentice if you haven't read Tides of War) and Garrosh before Pandaria. Forgive me that I'm just not happy with what nonsense you are talking about without knowing the ENT. In fact, you are literally twisting the lore to make the Lich King (actually your favorite character) appear stronger. You claim without any reason that the Lich King is MUCH stronger than Mannoroth because of their performance against completely different orcs, whose only common characteristic is the ax.

True? How did you define it? Because I said it to ridicule you saying that Xuen would eat Cenarius. See, it's not very easy to argue when there is absolutely no proof, is it? So how did you determine how difficult the battle between Xuen and Cenarius would be? How did you determine how difficult the battle between the Lich King and Lei Shen will be?
We have no idea about their battle. If you looked CAREFULLY at this art, you would see that it is not only Cenarius and Mannoroth. Demons, dragons, children of Cenarius, night elves and other wild gods fight around them. In fact, you can spot Malorne looking at Mannoroth very angrily. All we see is Mannoroth swinging at Cenarius and Cenarius using some kind of nature spell in Mannoroth's face. We have no idea who had the advantage in this duel and how long it lasted. I said so, Cenarius and Mannoroth are on the same level and MAYBE Cenarius is A LITTLE weaker. See how different this is from your claim that 100% The Lich King is MUCH stronger than Mannoroth? I am not asserting what I am not sure of. I know lore ten times better than you, and you can infinitely accuse me of arrogance, but I know that some things can only be guessed at. Also, it would not be strange for Mannoroth to meet someone who is weaker than him, but whom he hates very much. Mannoroth is not some honorable warrior, he is a destroyer and he is very aggressive. He would like this meeting to unleash his rage on Cenarius. Why should I explain such simple things to you? Did you find out about the character of Mannoroth only from this topic, quickly read about him on Wowpedia and decided that you knew everything about his strength and character?

- - - Updated - - -


The chronicles show that Cenarius was killed in a 1v1 battle against Grommash. You also must not forget that Grommash's ax has tremendous power thanks to the hearts of 6 legendary Gronns.
Gorehowl was forged three generations before Grommash inherited it. Grommash's great-grandfather used Gorehowl to kill six legendary gronn. Their hearts were sealed into the blade, granting it untold strength. [1]

The Cenarion Ax is MUCH more powerful than the Gorehowl. Here, read my topic about this and you will understand everything.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...xe-of-Cenarius

Cenarius is actually listed as one of the greatest wild gods in the Chronicles and I think that due to the fact that he inherited the power of Malorne (the strongest wild god), he is stronger than most other wild gods (at least he is stronger than Ursoc because he is more late boss in the raid). And I don't think the person you answered meant the titan Keepers . He just meant the keepers of Azeroth.

- - - Updated - - -



This is not a moon well.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fountain_of_Health

aaand yet another wall of insults, references to older posts from u and nothing more. nice.

[Razion]

Yes Illidan created the second well, first to get his addiction withdrawal suppressed and to use it against another legion invasion, but why would he waste his time on creating these wells especially in parts of the world he did not visit in the time frame he had the vials, he only got them right before the whole thing imploded, so how was he supposed to travel across the planet planting "moonwells" at random?

Moonwells are an entire new night elf creation, after the second well was created, despite originally debating how evil it was arguing for its destruction, but held back because they feared it could cause another sundering, so the dragons plant a tree on it, to keep its powers contained ,so only after the empire days did the purple knife ears in their infinite wisdom, decide to plaster the land with magical arcane wells, despite literally planting a tree on it to contain its arcane powers, so they can spread and use its arcane powers.


Ultimately Elune is ancient and not just worshiped by night elves, she could have blessed any fountain true, but it still wouldn't make these fountains a moonwell, also any other powerful deity could have also blessed different wells, or titan keepers, or a mortal channeled power into one at one point, maybe an elemental, all you need to create such wells in the warcraft universe is power.




You are making far too much of a deal out of this, such fountains aren't really that remarkable, nor do they need an explanation, because the lazy way blizz has set them up they can come a dime a dozen. if you have a skilled caster with power in their hand. Just tap it to a ley line and voila, fountain is magical.

One thing that would help shore this up is if the fountain that Mannoroth corrupted was anywhere in game - apparently it isn't, though there are lots of Moonwells in various zones around the general viscinity where it could have been. But, there aren't really these normal fountains comparatively in WoW at all to my knowledge. It seems they were just a relic of WC3 that have mostly been done away with. So for all the jumping through hoops that it could have been from another power, we know for sure that at least one was blessed by Elune and so far there aren't any other alternatives of these kinds of fountains blessed by anything else (except in Pandaria, I guess, but this is obviously really far away from there).

I mean, it doesn't really make sense that any of the Night Elves would have gone to the Eastern Kingdoms to drop off say, moon-water in Lordaeron, which is why the example in Brill is so freaking odd. It makes a lot more sense for all the lands of Kalimdor, because as part of a very long war campaign they might get around or travel through different zones and along the way a lot of moonwells would be created for one reason or another (to help other settlements, to maybe put off a bit of magic addition, whatever).

I think the fountains being powerful is notable because it tells us how powerful the Orcs were when they killed Cenarius. Cenarius is killable, and sure all the extra juice of a Well of Eternity probably isn't necessary to justify the Orcs being strong enough to kill Cenarius. But, it sure as heck is a lot easier to wrap one's head around if the Orcs are juiced up on essentially Azerite water from the Well of Eternity as well as Elune water and Pit Lord blood all at the same time. Just Elune-blessed water and Pit Lord blood sure is probably enough of a boon in and of itself via just a regular Fountain of Health or whatever, but to make people less skeptical that a Demigod was killed by a mortal Orc, I think the justification that the water came from the original Well of Eternity helps sell that a lot better. Maybe it's accurate, maybe it's not, but it sure as heck also sounds a lot cooler.

Maybe to another point, Orcs drinking on Pit Lord blood don't seem to be on the same kind of level we see when it has happened more recently compared to like, when they did it to kill Cenarius, so the Elune-blessed water, infused with the waters from the Well of Eternity, would be a good way as well to explain those kinds of discrepancies as well - as otherwise, normally a Pit Lord has to give a lot more blood and normally that seems to result in the kind of Hulk variety of Orc that we sometimes run into.

[Gaidax]

WARCRAFT GAMES >>> Chronicles, novels, comics etc

Stop the presses - a 3 post troll put a flag on a whole thing. Yup, nothing Blizz can do with their own lore without random MMO-C troll's consent here.

We get it, you're one of those, but in the end it's just you really and in this case, you're literally raising fuss over something that was a thing originally anyway.

There are FAR better cases to nitpick than this.

[baskev]

Cenarius vs Grom ...
In chronicle is written that Grom Hellscream beat Cenarius in 1 vs 1 fight. It is obvioulsly nonsense because entire Warsong clan with hundreds of orcs beat Demigod. Cenarius is nearly as powerful as Archimonde, more powerful than Lich King and probably 10 times stronger than Malfuriion and Illidan. Did the writter of this book read War of Ancients or at least play Warcraft 3? It's funny because in fact Cenarius was fuc*ing huge and muscular but this picture in chronicle suggest that he looked like a dryad with anorexia.

And sadly like others i would say that the books go before older lore.

But that said. Yeah i do not its impossible for Grom to beat Cenarius.

Grom barely beat Mannoroth. Twice in a row it was pure luck and massive amounts of outside help. And ingame/books it shows him to be on thralls level. Maybe a bit stronger.

Cenarius fought Archimond ( latter one need to retreat). He also fought Malfurion and helped to fight against Ragnoross. So yeah it seems a retcon to make him a bit more weaker as before.

But he is as strong or weak as they want him to be. If you look at all the Lore and being a demi god you would think he is powerfull. But then if you look ingame he can beat some people with ease, while others pown him.
But those people who pown him can not beat the people he beats with ease.

Take the alliance per example. It has void elves who can create void portals anywhere, a flying space ship with a super laser and dark iron dwarfs with the mole machines. Yet somehow they where losing/draw in the battle of azoroth.
Like mole machine or void portal with explosives into horde city or army....boom. bye bye army. Or just space laser of death. And unlike the goblin big cannon ( does it even really fire?) they can not be countered.

So i do not think its a mistake. Its just a retcon.

[Ardenaso]

Weird. Wowpedia cites Fountain of Health as also blessed by Elune via the manual. If anyone has access to the manual, can anyone confirm if these weren't made by Illidan? And if these weren't made by Illidan, does that mean the citizens of Lordaeron were worshiping Elune? Wouldn't that mean Forsaken would have Druids?

Alric: Milord, there is an ancient fountain shrine nearby. Legends say that its holy waters can restore health and heal grievous wounds.

Arthas: This must be the shrine that the old man spoke of. Any man who drinks from these Light-blessed waters will be healed.

I'd think that they're simply springs imbued with holy/elune powers and then those in Outland were originally blessed by Draenei

[TheFirstOnes]

"I don't care much what you think of Kosaka, it's still canon. And where did he go wrong?

I know that Mannoroth is dumb, that does not mean that he is 1 by 1 weaker than the Lich King. Kosak also said that the Lich King is smarter than Lei Shen, but Lei Shen is still stronger."

A tweet from 2013 or so doesn't hold much weight. Also, you still ignoring the whole Kosak Azeroth tweet fiasco? Man literally had to apologize for spreading misinformation. Also, SL kinda amped up Domination gear and the Lich King. We don't really know who would win currently, anymore. Regarding Mannoroth, I don't know where he would scale regarding power outside of the fact that he is basically equal to Cenarius. Maybe the LK beats him, maybe not, who knows. Shadowlands is kinda fucked with the powerscaling.

Also, what do you mean "keeper of Azeroth" regarding Cenarius? Cause the Titan Keepers we know were made to serve as Keepers of Azeroth. I mean, do you mean Keepers as in the lesser Demigods? Or? Cause that makes sense. Also, I reread the Chronicle, yeah you're right on the Grom fight. Grom was much more powerful at the time than I remembered him being. I know about Gorehowl and its power. Idk how it'll do against a fully powered Mannoroth that's actually taking things seriously. Cause in both occasions Grom beat Mannoroth in (MU and AU alike), Mannoroth was either downplaying Grom heavily and making fun of it, or was distracted easily. But yes, Gorehowl is tough.

"Cenarius is actually listed as one of the greatest wild gods in the Chronicle" I'll have to reread that part. I thought he was a higher up, but I didn't think he was among the greatest of them. You're likely right though. Also, regarding the "raid", Cenarius was also guarding the entrance to the Rift of Aln. That in itself wouldn't be so much as natural power regarding him and Ursoc, more than it would be that Ursoc's corruption wasn't as beefy nor as great as Cenarius'. But in general, Cenarius is more powerful than Ursoc, I would argue. Yes.

- - - Updated - - -

Alric: Milord, there is an ancient fountain shrine nearby. Legends say that its holy waters can restore health and heal grievous wounds.

Arthas: This must be the shrine that the old man spoke of. Any man who drinks from these Light-blessed waters will be healed.

I'd think that they're simply springs imbued with holy/elune powers and then those in Outland were originally blessed by Draenei

Eh, I'd argue Arthas and Alric knew nothing about Elune at the time, which makes sense considering the Humans don't meet the Night Elves until later in WC3.

- - - Updated - - -

The fountain itself doesn't really look Holy-imbued, or at least not in Reforged. Maybe it was something akin to a Moonwell? Maybe not? It's debatable.

- - - Updated - - -

FACTS ABOUT CENARIUS:
1) Cenarius with Malorne are 2 the most powerful Wild Gods
2) He was the the biggest threat to Burning Legion during 3rd War (not dragon aspects, not Stormrage, or Tyrande….but Cenarius). That’s why Archimonde wanted to eliminate him before invasion, because he remembered how big problem Cenarius was for Legion 10 000 years ago
3) Cenarius was the son of Malorne and ELUNE !!!! so his power is at least equal to Malorne. Malorne gave very good fight against Archimonde before he lost …… and what do you think? Did Lich King (Guy with a sword) would be able to fight against Archimonde or Kil Jaeden for longer than 5 seconds? Hahaha….Archimonde > Cenarius >>>>>>>>>>>Lich King. Cenarius would wipe floor with Lich King too. Sylvia has recently showed how overrated the Lich king is.
4) In the War of Ancient during the battle to stop Cenarius Archimonde had to concentrate all legions attack (thousands of demons) into Cenarius because he was killing everything which standed against him
5)His power is equel or even a bit higher than Mannoroth who would crashed Arthas like a child.
6) Cenarius created weapon which hurt Sargeras!
7) Cenarius was master (Shan'do) of Malfurion who is much more stronger than grom 1 vs 1
8) Lich King would beat Grom easily 1vs 1……Lei Shen would beat Lich King (confirmed by Kosak)…….and Cenarius vs Lei Shen 1 vs 1 is still a joke ….Cenarius would rip off Lei Shen’s head easily.

Thats why was needed at least hundreds angry fel orcs to kill Cenarius…… not 1 orc….

Imma debunk this:

1. Cenarius isn't stated to be stronger than the August Celestials or Goldrinn. Stop. He's a higher Wild God, sure. But he's not the most powerful.

2. Cenarius was only a threat due to his affinity over the forests. Grommash dealt with him in close combat easily. Don't overhype him. Cenarius is powerful, but Gorehowl and Grommash's amps were considerable.

3. "Gave a good fight" Didn't he like push Archimonde around a little until he got pissed and snapped Malorne's neck? Alexstrasza's blessing fucked with Archimonde more than Malorne ever did, tf? At least with the blessing, Archimonde couldn't fucking move. Also, being the son of Malorne doesn't make you EQUAL to him. You're being dishonest, at this rate. Does that make Grommash Hellscream equal to Archimonde in combat strength then, cause Grom killed Cenarius? Fuck no.

4. Cenarius was one of the last remaining battling Wild Gods at the time, and Archimonde legit said "fuck it, kill em fast". Nothing really implies he was all that much a threat. Archimonde just wanted the Wild God shit over with.

5. Yes, they are equal (Idk about Cenarius being stronger tho, since that's not much implied). But regarding Arthas? Ehhhhh? Death Knight Arthas is still pretty tough. He beat Illidan in combat, and the Illidan he fought at the time was stronger, and more experienced than he was when he first obtained the powers of the Skull of Gul'dan, which gave him enough power to kill Tichondrius, who was the top guy of the Dreadlords at the time. Illidan in the Arthas novel was stated to be stronger and lost due to getting cocky, but the WC3 cinematics + the Chronicle kinda imply the opposite in that Arthas just overpowered him. We know Illidan, with the help of Vashj, Akama, and Kael'thas defeated Magtheridon, but we don't know where the Pitlord scales when faced with Mannoroth. So, idk. Maybe I am kinda wanking Arthas here? But I think Arthas battling Mannoroth would be a little more equal than you claim it to be.

6. Cenarius creating it wasn't the only factor that made the blade strong.

7. And yet Grom smacked Cenarius around in close combat. That's kinda the point of differentiating ranged and melee combat. You can be this all-powerful Wizard, but if you're not durable or anything like that, it's likely that a powerful ass gladiator will slam your ass to the ground. Or, in this case, Grommash's amp's + Gorehowl overpowered Cenarius' powers in close ranged combat.

8. Idk how DK Arthas scales regarding Grom and co, but yes. LK Arthas would destroy Grom.

"Cenarius vs Lei Shen 1 vs 1 is still a joke ….Cenarius would rip off Lei Shen’s head easily." We don't know this.

"Lei Shen would beat Lich King (confirmed by Kosak)" Old tweet by Kosak (who doesn't work for Blizzard anymore, last time I checked, and while that doesn't destroy his credibility, he also hasn't really done shit regarding Shadowlands, which amped up Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination by a bit), and Lei'shen, as well as the LK have been beefed up and were provided multiple new feats since then. It is possible Lei'shen would still win, but that's up for debate.

Using old lore stuff as a reference isn't the best idea. Reminder that the WoTA, especially Krasus pinned the Old Gods above Sargeras, and that the Aspects would be the only force that could stop them. Both of those statements being outright stupid using the current lore.

- - - Updated - - -

lol @ people trying to POWER LEVEL Warcraft Heroes. We are talking about creatures that power fluctuates between ages, their fighting terrain, who summoned them, who is channeling them power, what artifacts they posses in that particular time, etc.

This isnt Dragon Ball, go away.

God, I pray you realize Dragon Ball isn't the only series ever that talks about extreme power between different characters. If DB were in any other series and their shoes, they would get slaughtered by DC, Marvel, Elder Scrolls, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, etc. Warcraft having physically strong characters that could destroy planets and shit does not mean anything remotely close to Dragon Ball. Stop it.

- - - Updated - - -

Besides, Dragon Ball and its power stems from how you train, what race you are, what type of transformations you use, how well you possess Ki control, how well you fight, etc. Warcraft and other franchises follow incredibly similar rules.

- - - Updated - - -

I mostly agree with Darkoms and his stuff, but my only real disagreement, which is kinda slight at that, is in regards toward how he'd fare against Lei'shen.

- - - Updated - - -

Archimonde>Cenarius>Lich King

I'd argue the Lich King is above Cenarius. When we fight Cenarius in Legion, he's amped by the Emerald Nightmare, which is a pretty big increase. If Cenarius in close combat can fall to Grom (Who is powerful, sure), I don't know if Cenarius could beat the Lich King, who could very well just try to snatch his soul or cleave him with Frostmourne.

- - - Updated - - -

As long as retcons are a thing, there won't be any consistency.
Sylvanus >>>everybody

No? The Jailer is the guy that gave Sylvanas the power needed to be that strong to begin with, and while Sylvanas doesn't "serve" him, she's got almost nothing going on that could push her to try and defeat him. He could dip from Zovaal, sure. But that's it. Besides, in the new SoD raid, we're gonna fight Sylvanas. I assume we're going to beat her in combat (So much for your weird, bandwagon claim if this is the case) but the Jailer will save her last minute and fuck us.

- - - Updated - - -

aaand yet another wall of insults, references to older posts from u and nothing more. nice.

He's not throwing insults? Sure, he's projecting some of his thoughts in places where it's not needed, but other than that, all he's doing is correcting people on their mistakes.

[darkoms]

aaand yet another wall of insults, references to older posts from u and nothing more. nice.

Oh, yes, forgive me for the fact that I can argue normally and do not say something that I cannot prove. You have unreasonably argued that the Lich King is much stronger than Mannoroth, or that Xuen is much stronger than Cenarius. Can you just admit that you are a fan of the Lich King and not accuse me of being aggressive?

- - - Updated - - -

WARCRAFT GAMES >>> Chronicles, novels, comics etc
Some people mistakenly believe that Warcraft books have priority over games in lore. I want to explain something briefly, why they are wrong... Warcraft games have precedence over chronicles. Why? Games: old Warcraft 1,2,3 but also WoW are saint, they constitute foundation of Warcraft universe, they engage a lot of people to creating a plot. And book is only a personal view of one writter connected somehow with blizzard on the events in warcraft history. In case of Warcraft games are always "first ones" thats why it is impossible now to buy book in order to find out what will happen with Anduin in the Maw. Events in games determine future books, not vice versa. But books are good to fulfill the events which don't have place in games and between parts of games.

This thread is your first post on this forum, and in this thread you are claiming that the Chronicles, books, and stuff are bullshit. When I accuse people of trolling, I get banned for insults, but I am absolutely sure that you did not create this topic because you really want to discuss lore.

- - - Updated - - -

Hell, even Malorne didn't even put up that great of a fight. Archimonde is a spellcaster and still broke his neck with relative ease.

Archimonde was wounded enough for Malfurion to drive him from the battlefield. He didn't really use magic (nor did Malorne), but it wasn't an easy battle.

[TheFirstOnes]

Oh, yes, forgive me for the fact that I can argue normally and do not say something that I cannot prove. You have unreasonably argued that the Lich King is much stronger than Mannoroth, or that Xuen is much stronger than Cenarius. Can you just admit that you are a fan of the Lich King and not accuse me of being aggressive?

I only argue that the Lich King is stronger than Mannoroth due to the fact that he's done thing such as raise Sindragosa from the ground with his magics, is stronger than Illidan and likely his band (In which they took down Magtheridon, which was one of the most powerful Pitlords to exist, and was the original ruler of Outland), can break regular weapons like nothing, scales about guys such as Anub'arak, who was the last Nerubian king of Azjol'Nerub, etc. While Mannoroth is powerful, I would argue he would probably be moreso a match, or probably defeat Death Knight Arthas. I don't think he would be able to beat Lich King Arthas. I just think there's too much going for the LK to make him weaker. He also tanked the plague by the Forsaken and walked away from it merely choking a bit, while Mannoroth got hurt a bit, and got confused a bit by the smokes of an Iron Star, and got pinned by Iron Horde chains. Without asking for too much, which one do you think is a better feat? The one where someone tanked a plague that dismantled entire Alliance and Horde armies and walked away more pissed off than hurt? Or the one where someone gets confused by an Iron star, is chained up, and got shocked by an Iron Star hitting em? Not to mention Arthas also has remorseless winter, which causes an entire cloud to cover his opponents, so that also doesn't fully help Mannoroth.

The most we got from Mannoroth is that: He scales to Cenarius, who is one of the highest ranking Demigods (We don't know if he's the most powerful one though), he can physically beat down Grommash and can only lose if provided a direct hit to a vital part of his body, or if his guard's lowered, and he would get smacked around by Night Elf Azshara (Though, that really doesn't go against him, since Azshara is the most powerful arcane user on Azeroth). It's all cool, sure. But I doubt it can beat the Lich King. Idk, I always also kinda saw Mannoroth as rather fodder. That's my reasoning for why I doubt Mannoroth would beat the Lich King, though.

Has Houle ever actually provided reasonings for his claim?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, yes, forgive me for the fact that I can argue normally and do not say something that I cannot prove. You have unreasonably argued that the Lich King is much stronger than Mannoroth, or that Xuen is much stronger than Cenarius. Can you just admit that you are a fan of the Lich King and not accuse me of being aggressive?

- - - Updated - - -


This thread is your first post on this forum, and in this thread you are claiming that the Chronicles, books, and stuff are bullshit. When I accuse people of trolling, I get banned for insults, but I am absolutely sure that you did not create this topic because you really want to discuss lore.

- - - Updated - - -



Archimonde was wounded enough for Malfurion to drive him from the battlefield. He didn't really use magic (nor did Malorne), but it wasn't an easy battle.

Not sure why he's using the games and are claiming it's a better source than the Chronicle, etc. The game still uses that retconned to shit "Sargeras origins" book the from old Azeroth zones. Not to mention a lot of the stuff in game isn't reflected in the lore well.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Malorne's antlers stick into Archimonde's stomach a bit, or at the very least get a few good shots into the Eredar lord? Cause I do remember reading that Archimonde was pretty wounded when Malfurion faced him. Was that also when Alexstrasza's blessing was used into effect also? or?

[darkoms]

Hell, even Malorne didn't even put up that great of a fight. Archimonde is a spellcaster and still broke his neck with relative ease.

Archimonde was wounded enough for Malfurion to drive him from the battlefield. He didn't really use magic (nor did Malorne), but it wasn't an easy battle.

- - - Updated - - -

"I don't care much what you think of Kosaka, it's still canon. And where did he go wrong?

I know that Mannoroth is dumb, that does not mean that he is 1 by 1 weaker than the Lich King. Kosak also said that the Lich King is smarter than Lei Shen, but Lei Shen is still stronger."

A tweet from 2013 or so doesn't hold much weight. Also, you still ignoring the whole Kosak Azeroth tweet fiasco? Man literally had to apologize for spreading misinformation. Also, SL kinda amped up Domination gear and the Lich King. We don't really know who would win currently, anymore. Regarding Mannoroth, I don't know where he would scale regarding power outside of the fact that he is basically equal to Cenarius. Maybe the LK beats him, maybe not, who knows. Shadowlands is kinda fucked with the powerscaling.

Also, what do you mean "keeper of Azeroth" regarding Cenarius? Cause the Titan Keepers we know were made to serve as Keepers of Azeroth. I mean, do you mean Keepers as in the lesser Demigods? Or? Cause that makes sense. Also, I reread the Chronicle, yeah you're right on the Grom fight. Grom was much more powerful at the time than I remembered him being. I know about Gorehowl and its power. Idk how it'll do against a fully powered Mannoroth that's actually taking things seriously. Cause in both occasions Grom beat Mannoroth in (MU and AU alike), Mannoroth was either downplaying Grom heavily and making fun of it, or was distracted easily. But yes, Gorehowl is tough.

"Cenarius is actually listed as one of the greatest wild gods in the Chronicle" I'll have to reread that part. I thought he was a higher up, but I didn't think he was among the greatest of them. You're likely right though. Also, regarding the "raid", Cenarius was also guarding the entrance to the Rift of Aln. That in itself wouldn't be so much as natural power regarding him and Ursoc, more than it would be that Ursoc's corruption wasn't as beefy nor as great as Cenarius'. But in general, Cenarius is more powerful than Ursoc, I would argue. Yes.

- - - Updated - - -



Eh, I'd argue Arthas and Alric knew nothing about Elune at the time, which makes sense considering the Humans don't meet the Night Elves until later in WC3.

- - - Updated - - -

The fountain itself doesn't really look Holy-imbued, or at least not in Reforged. Maybe it was something akin to a Moonwell? Maybe not? It's debatable.

- - - Updated - - -



Imma debunk this:

1. Cenarius isn't stated to be stronger than the August Celestials or Goldrinn. Stop. He's a higher Wild God, sure. But he's not the most powerful.

2. Cenarius was only a threat due to his affinity over the forests. Grommash dealt with him in close combat easily. Don't overhype him. Cenarius is powerful, but Gorehowl and Grommash's amps were considerable.

3. "Gave a good fight" Didn't he like push Archimonde around a little until he got pissed and snapped Malorne's neck? Alexstrasza's blessing fucked with Archimonde more than Malorne ever did, tf? At least with the blessing, Archimonde couldn't fucking move. Also, being the son of Malorne doesn't make you EQUAL to him. You're being dishonest, at this rate. Does that make Grommash Hellscream equal to Archimonde in combat strength then, cause Grom killed Cenarius? Fuck no.

4. Cenarius was one of the last remaining battling Wild Gods at the time, and Archimonde legit said "fuck it, kill em fast". Nothing really implies he was all that much a threat. Archimonde just wanted the Wild God shit over with.

5. Yes, they are equal (Idk about Cenarius being stronger tho, since that's not much implied). But regarding Arthas? Ehhhhh? Death Knight Arthas is still pretty tough. He beat Illidan in combat, and the Illidan he fought at the time was stronger, and more experienced than he was when he first obtained the powers of the Skull of Gul'dan, which gave him enough power to kill Tichondrius, who was the top guy of the Dreadlords at the time. Illidan in the Arthas novel was stated to be stronger and lost due to getting cocky, but the WC3 cinematics + the Chronicle kinda imply the opposite in that Arthas just overpowered him. We know Illidan, with the help of Vashj, Akama, and Kael'thas defeated Magtheridon, but we don't know where the Pitlord scales when faced with Mannoroth. So, idk. Maybe I am kinda wanking Arthas here? But I think Arthas battling Mannoroth would be a little more equal than you claim it to be.

6. Cenarius creating it wasn't the only factor that made the blade strong.

7. And yet Grom smacked Cenarius around in close combat. That's kinda the point of differentiating ranged and melee combat. You can be this all-powerful Wizard, but if you're not durable or anything like that, it's likely that a powerful ass gladiator will slam your ass to the ground. Or, in this case, Grommash's amp's + Gorehowl overpowered Cenarius' powers in close ranged combat.

8. Idk how DK Arthas scales regarding Grom and co, but yes. LK Arthas would destroy Grom.

"Cenarius vs Lei Shen 1 vs 1 is still a joke ….Cenarius would rip off Lei Shen’s head easily." We don't know this.

"Lei Shen would beat Lich King (confirmed by Kosak)" Old tweet by Kosak (who doesn't work for Blizzard anymore, last time I checked, and while that doesn't destroy his credibility, he also hasn't really done shit regarding Shadowlands, which amped up Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination by a bit), and Lei'shen, as well as the LK have been beefed up and were provided multiple new feats since then. It is possible Lei'shen would still win, but that's up for debate.

Using old lore stuff as a reference isn't the best idea. Reminder that the WoTA, especially Krasus pinned the Old Gods above Sargeras, and that the Aspects would be the only force that could stop them. Both of those statements being outright stupid using the current lore.

- - - Updated - - -



God, I pray you realize Dragon Ball isn't the only series ever that talks about extreme power between different characters. If DB were in any other series and their shoes, they would get slaughtered by DC, Marvel, Elder Scrolls, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, etc. Warcraft having physically strong characters that could destroy planets and shit does not mean anything remotely close to Dragon Ball. Stop it.

- - - Updated - - -

Besides, Dragon Ball and its power stems from how you train, what race you are, what type of transformations you use, how well you possess Ki control, how well you fight, etc. Warcraft and other franchises follow incredibly similar rules.

- - - Updated - - -

I mostly agree with Darkoms and his stuff, but my only real disagreement, which is kinda slight at that, is in regards toward how he'd fare against Lei'shen.

- - - Updated - - -



I'd argue the Lich King is above Cenarius. When we fight Cenarius in Legion, he's amped by the Emerald Nightmare, which is a pretty big increase. If Cenarius in close combat can fall to Grom (Who is powerful, sure), I don't know if Cenarius could beat the Lich King, who could very well just try to snatch his soul or cleave him with Frostmourne.

- - - Updated - - -



No? The Jailer is the guy that gave Sylvanas the power needed to be that strong to begin with, and while Sylvanas doesn't "serve" him, she's got almost nothing going on that could push her to try and defeat him. He could dip from Zovaal, sure. But that's it. Besides, in the new SoD raid, we're gonna fight Sylvanas. I assume we're going to beat her in combat (So much for your weird, bandwagon claim if this is the case) but the Jailer will save her last minute and fuck us.

- - - Updated - - -



He's not throwing insults? Sure, he's projecting some of his thoughts in places where it's not needed, but other than that, all he's doing is correcting people on their mistakes.

I understand correctly that any of Metzen's answers from the 2010-2013 blizzards are non-canonical because they are too old. There is no more dumb argument than to say that something is non-canon because it is too old. Not. It wasn't a tweet, it was a comment on Reddit, and he actually apologized afterwards. And he just expressed his opinion. You really think you should define the canon, but what? As long as nothing contradicts Kosaka's tweet, this is canon.
Well? Tirion broke Frostmourne anyway, no one else has retconned it yet. We found out the origin of the sword, this does not mean that now it is something many times stronger than before. You are trying to pass off your fantasies as canon, although we have no information.

I don't know why you are asking me? I'm just assuming that the person meant exactly that. He hardly confused Cenarius with someone like Hodir. I think that the stronger the demigod, the harder it is to defile him.

People don't understand how Frostmourne works. The Lich King cannot simply rip the soul out of his body, he must first kill the enemy. Not to mention that it is the soul of the Wild God, the creature of Life. And no, I think Cenarius is clearly stronger than the Lich King. Arthas has never shown anything impressive. And Grommash is clearly stronger than Arthas in close combat.

[Whitedragon]

As linked above it states nowhere that Grom won in a 1v1 battle.
All it says it's his axe that killed him... which was always the case.

Being imensely powerfull doesn't make you immune to an extreme case of axe to the head.
Even if it was a duel Grom would stand a chance... just one well aimed axe throw...

This is not DBZ after all... where having a lot of comulative power makes you immune to all lesser attacks.

Even in Dragon ball you can still die by a lesser attack, if you aren't defending against it. Goku got shot in the back by a rando Freeza lackey in super, debilitating him.

[darkoms]

I only argue that the Lich King is stronger than Mannoroth due to the fact that he's done thing such as raise Sindragosa from the ground with his magics, is stronger than Illidan and likely his band (In which they took down Magtheridon, which was one of the most powerful Pitlords to exist, and was the original ruler of Outland), can break regular weapons like nothing, scales about guys such as Anub'arak, who was the last Nerubian king of Azjol'Nerub, etc. While Mannoroth is powerful, I would argue he would probably be moreso a match, or probably defeat Death Knight Arthas. I don't think he would be able to beat Lich King Arthas. I just think there's too much going for the LK to make him weaker. He also tanked the plague by the Forsaken and walked away from it merely choking a bit, while Mannoroth got hurt a bit, and got confused a bit by the smokes of an Iron Star, and got pinned by Iron Horde chains. Without asking for too much, which one do you think is a better feat? The one where someone tanked a plague that dismantled entire Alliance and Horde armies and walked away more pissed off than hurt? Or the one where someone gets confused by an Iron star, is chained up, and got shocked by an Iron Star hitting em? Not to mention Arthas also has remorseless winter, which causes an entire cloud to cover his opponents, so that also doesn't fully help Mannoroth.

The most we got from Mannoroth is that: He scales to Cenarius, who is one of the highest ranking Demigods (We don't know if he's the most powerful one though), he can physically beat down Grommash and can only lose if provided a direct hit to a vital part of his body, or if his guard's lowered, and he would get smacked around by Night Elf Azshara (Though, that really doesn't go against him, since Azshara is the most powerful arcane user on Azeroth). It's all cool, sure. But I doubt it can beat the Lich King. Idk, I always also kinda saw Mannoroth as rather fodder. That's my reasoning for why I doubt Mannoroth would beat the Lich King, though.

Has Houle ever actually provided reasonings for his claim?

- - - Updated - - -



Not sure why he's using the games and are claiming it's a better source than the Chronicle, etc. The game still uses that retconned to shit "Sargeras origins" book the from old Azeroth zones. Not to mention a lot of the stuff in game isn't reflected in the lore well.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Malorne's antlers stick into Archimonde's stomach a bit, or at the very least get a few good shots into the Eredar lord? Cause I do remember reading that Archimonde was pretty wounded when Malfurion faced him. Was that also when Alexstrasza's blessing was used into effect also? or?

The Lich King was badly wounded by this plague and he left there limping and with difficulty uttered the words "this is not the end." Mannoroth easily fought off the charged Doomhammer, and the iron star only distracted him without harming him. It was also Mannoroth who killed Agamaggan in the original timeline (although Agamaggan was already wounded by the demons at that point).

Yes, that was indeed just before Alexstrasza showed up.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

WARCRAFT GAMES >>> Chronicles, novels, comics etc
Some people mistakenly believe that Warcraft books have priority over games in lore. I want to explain something briefly, why they are wrong... Warcraft games have precedence over chronicles. Why? Games: old Warcraft 1,2,3 but also WoW are saint, they constitute foundation of Warcraft universe, they engage a lot of people to creating a plot. And book is only a personal view of one writter connected somehow with blizzard on the events in warcraft history. In case of Warcraft games are always "first ones" thats why it is impossible now to buy book in order to find out what will happen with Anduin in the Maw. Events in games determine future books, not vice versa. But books are good to fulfill the events which don't have place in games and between parts of games.

What if I told you that not only are the books written by multiple people, the games are also just the personal views of those writers.

Blizzard retcon things. It happens. Most recent source>all, as much as you might dislike a given decision.

[TheFirstOnes]

The Lich King was badly wounded by this plague and he left there limping and with difficulty uttered the words "this is not the end." Mannoroth easily fought off the charged Doomhammer, and the iron star only distracted him without harming him. It was also Mannoroth who killed Agamaggan in the original timeline (although Agamaggan was already wounded by the demons at that point).

Yes, that was indeed just before Alexstrasza showed up.

I wouldn't say he was wounded, moreso than he was out of breath (Cause the plague's gasses and pollution were still choking him). Also, idk if he was limping. Did the Arthas novel or the Chronicle expand upon that? Or? Cause it looked like he was just walking in the cinematic, while holding either his chest or his throat with 1 arm.

The Doomhammer wasn't really as powerful in Warcraft 3 as it was in Legion, Cata, etc when it was empowered by the Elements and whatnot. Gorehowl was arguably a much stronger blade weapon at the time. Sure, it was still tough, but I wouldn't pin the weapon's power alone as much of a feat. Thrall's elemental skills at the time were far superior than his weapon wielding abilities (Which was why he was able to get Archimonde a slight bit with a chain lightning during the Third War), even in MoP I would argue that, since Thrall in melee combat got slammed around by an Old God empowered Garrosh, while in WoD, Thrall was getting slammed by Garrosh in close combat, only winning because of his elemental abilities. So, who knows.

Yeah, ik the Iron Star distracted him, but that still means the LK could get an advantage with remorseless winter. Could easily catch Mannoroth off guard, but that would also depend on if Mannoroth's careful enough as-well. He's not as stealthy as Sylvanas (Jailer Amped), so who knows. Regarding Agamaggan, yeah, killing off a wounded Wild God is, while kinda impressive, not too much of a feat, since as you said, Aga was already wounded by the demons). It's like saying Illidan killing off a beat down Gul'dan is a feat, or like saying an exhausted Varian losing to a couple of Felguard's is impressive. It's not, tbh. But I do get what you mean.

Also, thanks for clarifying on that. My WoTA knowledge is still slightly rusty. Haven't been on that since Legion.

[ohwell]

Seems to me plenty of chronicle 3 is a mistake.

This. They warped so much of old lore to somehow match WoD when that Draenor was INTENTIONALLY different. Somehow now Guldan was in cahoots all along and manipulating Nerzhul.... bunch of nonsense. MU Guldan was just a greedy overly ambitious little turd who screwed his people over when Nerzhul tried to do the right thing. Now he's suddenly from the tribe he destroyed in AU Draenor....

[TheFirstOnes]

Archimonde was wounded enough for Malfurion to drive him from the battlefield. He didn't really use magic (nor did Malorne), but it wasn't an easy battle.

- - - Updated - - -



I understand correctly that any of Metzen's answers from the 2010-2013 blizzards are non-canonical because they are too old. There is no more dumb argument than to say that something is non-canon because it is too old. Not. It wasn't a tweet, it was a comment on Reddit, and he actually apologized afterwards. And he just expressed his opinion. You really think you should define the canon, but what? As long as nothing contradicts Kosaka's tweet, this is canon.
Well? Tirion broke Frostmourne anyway, no one else has retconned it yet. We found out the origin of the sword, this does not mean that now it is something many times stronger than before. You are trying to pass off your fantasies as canon, although we have no information.

I don't know why you are asking me? I'm just assuming that the person meant exactly that. He hardly confused Cenarius with someone like Hodir. I think that the stronger the demigod, the harder it is to defile him.

People don't understand how Frostmourne works. The Lich King cannot simply rip the soul out of his body, he must first kill the enemy. Not to mention that it is the soul of the Wild God, the creature of Life. And no, I think Cenarius is clearly stronger than the Lich King. Arthas has never shown anything impressive. And Grommash is clearly stronger than Arthas in close combat.

Yeah, Grom is stronger than Arthas close combat. But is he as powerful as the LICH KING? There's a big difference in power between the two (I mean, look at what it did to Bolvar). Also, yes, Frostmourne does require the bodies be killed before the LK reaps them. Still doesn't mean the LK cannot just kill Mannoroth in a sneak shot from his remorseless winter. That could easily be an easy soul reap.

I'm only asking you for clarification. If you're just assuming what the other person meant, that's moreso confusing to me. Also, yeah, the stronger the demigod, the harder it is to defile him, sure. But that doesn't mean the Demigod cannot be beat.

"It wasn't a tweet, it was a comment on Reddit, and he actually apologized afterwards. And he just expressed his opinion." Yeah, reddit comment, my bad. But yes, I also acknowledged that he apologized. Stated it in my post above.

Tirion's Ashbringer was amped by a massive clutch by Tirion's final faith, and he struck at the Ashbringer while it was weak. Not to mention the Weapon is strong enough on its own, since it was also used to counter the Undead, and was made by the rage and sorrow of Magni Bronzebeard, as well as the core heart of a Naaru. Also, regarding "fantasies", Domination Gear is pretty tough (Look at Kingsmourne, or the armor we wield in SL), and Frostmourne + the Helm of Domination was said by the Jailer to be the Runecarver's finest work. Hell, fuckin Devos was having a panic attack due to Frostmourne's mere existence on Azeroth, and legit claimed that Bastion was imperiled as a result of Arthas running around Azeroth with the Maw's power in hand. I'd argue that's pretty tough.

"And he just expressed his opinion" Yeah, note that he stated this after confusing most of the fandom about Azeroth's titan, and legit being proven wrong about it not long after his apology, once the Chronicle came out. I don't buy it.

I do have a bias for the Lich King, but I also do know the power of the Legion and the Wild Gods. I would be arguing in bad faith if I thought Arthas would beat Cenarius, or Grom, cause I'd argue he'd lose. But the Lich King itself provides a ton of amps to Arthas, in that I doubt he would be beaten by them. So, my apologies if you do think I'm "wanking" the Lich King cause I think he would win, but I am seeing how both sides could best each-other in combat.

- - - Updated - - -

This. They warped so much of old lore to somehow match WoD when that Draenor was INTENTIONALLY different. Somehow now Guldan was in cahoots all along and manipulating Nerzhul.... bunch of nonsense. MU Guldan was just a greedy overly ambitious little turd who screwed his people over when Nerzhul tried to do the right thing. Now he's suddenly from the tribe he destroyed in AU Draenor....

He still tried to screw his people over, and tried to fuck with Ner'zhul. Hell, even in the old lore, he was trying to manipulate Ner'zhul and the other Shadowmoon guys from within. It's just that now, he's given a proper origin story. What's so hard believing that Gul'dan "joined" the Shadowmoon clan and made the Shadow Council not long after destroying his old birth town and running far away from it? Doesn't help no one remembers the village anyway, since it was literally blown to bits by Gul'dan's power.

- - - Updated - - -

And when was Gul'dan not in cahoots all along? Wot? He only got fucked over once he realized there were better things out there on Azeroth, and he straight up abandoned the Horde during the invasion of Lordaeron, just so he could claim the Tomb of Sargeras' power for himself.

- - - Updated - - -

WARCRAFT GAMES >>> Chronicles, novels, comics etc
Some people mistakenly believe that Warcraft books have priority over games in lore. I want to explain something briefly, why they are wrong... Warcraft games have precedence over chronicles. Why? Games: old Warcraft 1,2,3 but also WoW are saint, they constitute foundation of Warcraft universe, they engage a lot of people to creating a plot. And book is only a personal view of one writter connected somehow with blizzard on the events in warcraft history. In case of Warcraft games are always "first ones" thats why it is impossible now to buy book in order to find out what will happen with Anduin in the Maw. Events in games determine future books, not vice versa. But books are good to fulfill the events which don't have place in games and between parts of games.

By ignoring the books, novels, etc, you are ignoring 95% of the story. The story that is told in game is, while nice, not borne fruit. A lot of the old lore within the game is retconned, and a LOT of pieces of the story are missing unless you read the books. These outside source material for Warcraft is required to truly understand the cosmology and story of Warcraft. Otherwise, you'd be going on that false narrative that the Titans are supposedly the most powerful beings in the Cosmos all because the game called the "All powerful" or some oxymoron shit like that.

- - - Updated - - -

And I don't wanna see any Titan wanking here, btw. If I cannot be biased a bit over the LK or anything like that, then no one should be biased over the Titans. I'll keep a close eye on all of you...

Nah, I'm kidding (OR AM I? lol). Imma sleep. I'll check y'all up tomorrow.