Mistake in chronicle 3

[Houle]

Oh, yes, forgive me for the fact that I can argue normally and do not say something that I cannot prove. You have unreasonably argued that the Lich King is much stronger than Mannoroth, or that Xuen is much stronger than Cenarius. Can you just admit that you are a fan of the Lich King and not accuse me of being aggressive?

and wrong again. im a fan of the character ner'zhul, or rather, the character ner'zhul once was before blizz made it their life mission to fck him over. the lich king post-ner'zhul couldnt interest me less.

[Aucald]

and wrong again. im a fan of the character ner'zhul, or rather, the character ner'zhul once was before blizz made it their life mission to fck him over. the lich king post-ner'zhul couldnt interest me less.

In my experience with the lore, Ner'zhul has always been kind of fucked over. In Rise of the Horde he's basically tricked from the outset and basically made a slave of Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden after his humiliating revelation within Oshu'gun. Then in Beyond the Dark Portal he gets swiftly corrupted by the Skull of Gul'dan and becomes a psychopath, willing to destroy Draenor to save his own skin. Following that he gets snatched up by Kil'jaeden again in the Twisting Nether and tortured into become the Lich King, who is then made a slave to the Legion with his Scourge serving as their proxy army and cannon fodder until Archimonde arrives and takes the reins of the Scourge from him completely. He then tries to promote his own lieutenant in the form of Arthas who succeeds in completely and finally usurping him.

Ner'zhul's entire career has been defined by failure, humiliation, and being enslaved by forces greater than himself.

[Houle]

In my experience with the lore, Ner'zhul has always been kind of fucked over. In Rise of the Horde he's basically tricked from the outset and basically made a slave of Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden after his humiliating revelation within Oshu'gun. Then in Beyond the Dark Portal he gets swiftly corrupted by the Skull of Gul'dan and becomes a psychopath, willing to destroy Draenor to save his own skin. Following that he gets snatched up by Kil'jaeden again in the Twisting Nether and tortured into become the Lich King, who is then made a slave to the Legion with his Scourge serving as their proxy army and cannon fodder until Archimonde arrives and takes the reins of the Scourge from him completely. He then tries to promote his own lieutenant in the form of Arthas who succeeds in completely and finally usurping him.

Ner'zhul's entire career has been defined by failure, humiliation, and being enslaved by forces greater than himself.

id agree until the last part. yes. nerzhul was broken again and again, but in the end he rose above that. all of his failures pushed him to his final fate: the lich king. and this is where he finally shined. outsmarting kil'jaeden and the legion, manipulating the entire third war to his ends, and WINNING IN THE END.

the thing of arthas succeeding and replacing him is where the writers started to fck him over. originally, ner'zhul won everything in WC3. he was now one of the strongest beings on the planet (WC3 manual stated so), he had a new body, arthas fully fused into his personality, the legion was gone, a "jailer" didnt exist.

[Aucald]

id agree until the last part. yes. nerzhul was broken again and again, but in the end he rose above that. all of his failures pushed him to his final fate: the lich king. and this is where he finally shined. outsmarting kil'jaeden and the legion, manipulating the entire third war to his ends, and WINNING IN THE END.

the thing of arthas succeeding and replacing him is where the writers started to fck him over. originally, ner'zhul won everything in W3. arthas fully fused into his personality, he had a new body, the legion was gone, a "jailer" didnt exist.

I'd argue that one, even prior to the Rise of the Lich King retcon that changed Ner'zhul from being a composite character (the fusion of Ner'zhul and Arthas) to being just Arthas having fully taken over. Once Ner'zhul fused with Arthas he wasn't really Ner'zhul anymore, he was something altogether different. I'd even further argue that the Orc Ner'zhul and the entity who became the Lich King were also fundamentally different, a product of his radical transformation at Kil'jaeden's hands. I kind of preferred the fused identity myself, as it was related in Classic all the way into WotLK, but that doesn't really change my views on Ner'zhul as a person. Even prior to the retconning he still ultimately lost in both the Third War (Archimonde took the Scourge from him), and in WotLK (Tirion and the Ashen Verdict killing him atop Icecrown).

[Houle]

I'd argue that one, even prior to the Rise of the Lich King retcon that changed Ner'zhul from being a composite character (the fusion of Ner'zhul and Arthas) to being just Arthas having fully taken over. Once Ner'zhul fused with Arthas he wasn't really Ner'zhul anymore, he was something altogether different. I'd even further argue that the Orc Ner'zhul and the entity who became the Lich King were also fundamentally different, a product of his radical transformation at Kil'jaeden's hands. I kind of preferred the fused identity myself, as it was related in Classic all the way into WotLK, but that doesn't really change my views on Ner'zhul as a person. Even prior to the retconning he still ultimately lost in both the Third War (Archimonde took the Scourge from him), and in WotLK (Tirion and the Ashen Verdict killing him atop Icecrown).

i mean fair enough, but even fusing into a new being was his plan back then.
same with archimonde taking the scourge from him: kel'thuzad is completely unsurprised by it, and tells arthas not to worry, as ner'zhul knew that would happen and made it part of his plan.

Archimonde: Very well, Tichondrius. Since the Lich King is of no further use to me, you dreadlords will now command the Scourge.
Tichondrius: As you wish, Lord Archimonde.
Archimonde: Soon, I will order the invasion to begin. But first, I will make an example of these paltry wizards... by crushing their city into the ashes of history.
Arthas: This has got to be a joke! What happens to us now?
Kel'Thuzad: Be patient, young death knight. The Lich King foresaw this as well. You may yet have a part to play in his grand design.

he manipulated illidan into killing tichondrius, thus leaving archimonde unaware of the trap the NE prepared, leading to his death and ner'zhul taking his scourge back (arthas storming back to lorderon and throwing the dreadlords out).
in the original WC3, before any retcons, everything (except illidan) went according plan. archi taking the scourge away from him, archi dying, the scourge going back to him, and then arthas fusing with him into a new being.
and WotLK doesnt have really anything to do with him, as by that point the story was already changed to arthas being the only LK

[darkoms]

and wrong again. im a fan of the character ner'zhul, or rather, the character ner'zhul once was before blizz made it their life mission to fck him over. the lich king post-ner'zhul couldnt interest me less.

Again? I'm almost never wrong, especially when it comes to lore. As far as your preference is concerned, it doesn't matter. Earlier, you have already tried to prove that the Lich King and the Scourge are stronger than they really are.

[Houle]

Again? I'm almost never wrong, especially when it comes to lore. As far as your preference is concerned, it doesn't matter. Earlier, you have already tried to prove that the Lich King and the Scourge are stronger than they really are.

uhh yeah whatever you say my man. im sure you are a combination of metzer, danuser and golden in terms of lore knowledge.
but you either arent reading correctly, or you dont understand that theres a difference in arguing about smth and being a fanboy of smth. probably both.
either way, pretty embarrassing.

[darkoms]

uhh yeah whatever you say my man. im sure you are a combination of metzer, danuser and golden in terms of lore knowledge.
but you either arent reading correctly, or you dont understand that theres a difference in arguing about smth and being a fanboy of smth. probably both.
either way, pretty embarrassing.

If you are so smart, why am I the only one who gives proofs and links to quests or Chronicles in our disputes? You just said that the Lich King is much stronger than Mannoroth because the Lich King killed Dranosh and Mannoroth did not kill Grommash. Do you really think I'm the one who can't argue here?

[Aydinx2]

Then that is the case. Chronicle takes precedence over all previous sources.

No. Chronicle is the WC lore as told by the Titans. They can be wrong/lying.

[Houle]

If you are so smart, why am I the only one who gives proofs and links to quests or Chronicles in our disputes? You just said that the Lich King is much stronger than Mannoroth because the Lich King killed Dranosh and Mannoroth did not kill Grommash. Do you really think I'm the one who can't argue here?

yap, and thats the pointwhere its pointless to continue. you are once again forgetting that i was the first one to bring up chronicles and quotes from WC3 here. you are merely the first to take it personally (also once again)

so yeah, its quite obvious who cant argue.

[darkoms]

yap, and thats the pointwhere its pointless to continue. you are once again forgetting that i was the first one to bring up chronicles and quotes from WC3 here. you are merely the first to take it personally (also once again)

so yeah, its quite obvious who cant argue.

Um, what? So can you give some proof of your statement about Mannoroth and the Lich King? Oh yes, you cannot. You want your god to be the most powerful being in the universe, but you have no proof.
Um, no, you didn't give anything. You just told me to read Chronicle 3 and play Warcraft 3. Excellent proof level, kid.

[Aucald]

No. Chronicle is the WC lore as told by the Titans. They can be wrong/lying.

Insofar as their domain goes, they're neither wrong nor lying - but that domain has limits, such as the specifics of the Shadowlands or other planes of being beyond their scope and ken. The Chronicle series is an accurate and canon portrayal of the history of the Warcraft cosmos as told by a dispassionate third party. But there are things they could not account for and which they didn't understand, which are not accounted for in their portrayal of the history of the physical universe of WoW.

[StationaryHawk]

No. Chronicle is the WC lore as told by the Titans. They can be wrong/lying.

Chronicle was not written with that intention. It does not contain any deliberately incorrect information. The "perspective of the titans" bit was invented after the fact in order to give the writers a lore-friendly excuse to retcon it.

Um, what? So can you give some proof of your statement about Mannoroth and the Lich King? Oh yes, you cannot. You want your god to be the most powerful being in the universe, but you have no proof.
Um, no, you didn't give anything. You just told me to read Chronicle 3 and play Warcraft 3. Excellent proof level, kid.

Consider what the two of you are arguing over before resorting to name-calling.

[Houle]

Chronicle was not written with that intention. It does not contain any deliberately incorrect information. The "perspective of the titans" bit was invented after the fact in order to give the writers a lore-friendly excuse to retcon it.

Consider what the two of you are arguing over before resorting to name-calling.

relax. hes doing that every single time, with every single person on this forum. and his argument is always the same: "im always right"
best not to take him serious but laugh about it.

[darkoms]

Chronicle was not written with that intention. It does not contain any deliberately incorrect information. The "perspective of the titans" bit was invented after the fact in order to give the writers a lore-friendly excuse to retcon it.

Consider what the two of you are arguing over before resorting to name-calling.

Oh, it's okay. This gentleman and I have been arguing for a very long time. Every time he loses the argument, because he does not know the lore and every time he gets mad because of this even more and again clings to me and again loses and gets mad, and in general it is an endless circle of hatred towards me. I almost feel pity, but most of the time I'm funny.

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relax. hes doing that every single time, with every single person on this forum. and his argument is always the same: "im always right"
best not to take him serious but laugh about it.

Oh, am I wrong about Mannoroth and the Lich King? Please give me proof and I'll admit I'm wrong. Oh, and I would also be grateful if you could give proof that Xuen will eat Cenarius.

[StationaryHawk]

relax. hes doing that every single time, with every single person on this forum. and his argument is always the same: "im always right"
best not to take him serious but laugh about it.

Oh, it's okay. This gentleman and I have been arguing for a very long time. Every time he loses the argument, because he does not know the lore and every time he gets mad because of this even more and again clings to me and again loses and gets mad, and in general it is an endless circle of hatred towards me. I almost feel pity, but most of the time I'm funny.

I'm glad the two of you are at least on the same page. Please continue.

[Houle]

I'm glad the two of you are at least on the same page. Please continue.

well...lets just say it always ends the same way: just like it did right now^^

anyway back on topic

[TheFirstOnes]

Insofar as their domain goes, they're neither wrong nor lying - but that domain has limits, such as the specifics of the Shadowlands or other planes of being beyond their scope and ken. The Chronicle series is an accurate and canon portrayal of the history of the Warcraft cosmos as told by a dispassionate third party. But there are things they could not account for and which they didn't understand, which are not accounted for in their portrayal of the history of the physical universe of WoW.

Thank you. Thank. You.

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id agree until the last part. yes. nerzhul was broken again and again, but in the end he rose above that. all of his failures pushed him to his final fate: the lich king. and this is where he finally shined. outsmarting kil'jaeden and the legion, manipulating the entire third war to his ends, and WINNING IN THE END.

the thing of arthas succeeding and replacing him is where the writers started to fck him over. originally, ner'zhul won everything in WC3. he was now one of the strongest beings on the planet (WC3 manual stated so), he had a new body, arthas fully fused into his personality, the legion was gone, a "jailer" didnt exist.

I mean, Ner’zhul and Arthas we’re still fused and all. It’s just that Arthas completely fucked over Ner’zhul’s soul not long after. Doesn’t mean Ner’zhul’s soul got destroyed or anything, cause supposedly after Arthas’ or after Bolvar’s defeat (Cause you do hear a TON of Ner’zhul within LK Bolvar), Ner’zhul got sent to the Sanctum of Domination, where he’d be judged by the Jailer and tortured for all eternity.

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No. Chronicle is the WC lore as told by the Titans. They can be wrong/lying.

It was written from the viewpoint of the Titans. It was not told by the Titans. The Chronicle isn’t wrong, but it does provide a very basic and limited view of the Cosmos, especially the Physical Universe, which we know Light and Shadow created. We don’t however know what made the Cosmic Chart, or what made the Cosmic Realms, etc.

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God, I love to flex the First Ones. If the Grimoire confirms they made everything, I’ll laugh my ass off.

[ohwell]

This still applies, even with the new lore. The only difference is that Gul’dan was with the Legion by the time he met Ner’zhul

It really doesn't. They LITERALLY changed his character to match WoD which there was absolutely no need to considering many origins differ there like Garrosh not existing and Nerzhul hadn't lost his wife.

[Aucald]

It really doesn't. They LITERALLY changed his character to match WoD which there was absolutely no need to considering many origins differ there like Garrosh not existing and Nerzhul hadn't lost his wife.

Well, it wasn't really much of a change to be honest. Originally in the MU's lore Gul'dan was an apprentice of Ner'zhul whose history beyond that was completely unexplored - he jumps on the Legion bandwagon out of sycophantic power-lust. In the AU we're given more of Gul'dan's backstory in the nameless clan he later destroyed, then he was sent to ingratiate himself to Ner'zhul and the history of the Horde went forward until Garrosh intervened at the point where Gul'dan was going to give the Chalice of Unity (containing Mannoroth's blood) to the assembled clan, but then knocked the nascent Horde's history off its tracks leading to the Iron Horde and so forth.

All you have now is Gul'dan's history grafted onto the events depicted in Rise of the Horde then Chronicle Vol. 2, which doesn't really change what he did in the MU beyond having more history.