Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[PhaelixWW]

Mhm, we'll see. I'll be back in my usual fashion to be an ass to otherwise nice people like you once the connection is present.

Jokes aside, I totally get what you're saying. In all other cases we would be 100% aligned. But a potato shall strike me with lighting if AstraZeneca is really clean. It's a POS cocktail with much better alternatives out there but those are more expensive. What do you want to call me for connecting the dots? A conspiracy theorist?

Premature. Despite your claimed difference from anti-vaxxers, you're following their playbook. If that doesn't bother you, then...

[Edge-]

What do you want to call me for connecting the dots? A conspiracy theorist?

A random dude on the internet with no apparent medical/science/research background to be able to provide any meaningfully informed commentary or analysis?

[StayTuned]

A random dude on the internet with no apparent medical/science/research background to be able to provide any meaningfully informed commentary or analysis?

Meaningful commentary or analysis? It's all a shitshow, how much more meaningful can one get? I'm sure you have a 24/7 feed on Corona Updates like all of us. As soon as evidence hits that satisfies your needs, you wont need me anymore for that. I have trust in you.

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Premature. Despite your claimed difference from anti-vaxxers, you're following their playbook. If that doesn't bother you, then...

pffff why? Because I prefer one product over another?

[Edge-]

Meaningful commentary or analysis? It's all a shitshow, how much more meaningful can one get? I'm sure you have a 24/7 feed on Corona Updates like all of us. As soon as evidence hits that satisfies your needs, you wont need me anymore for that. I have trust in you.

It's a shitshow and we have a lot of questions without answers, yeah. But that we don't have answers doesn't mean that jumping to conclusions is any better, sometimes we just don't have answers.

I'm not a doctor. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a researcher. I haven't looked at the data.

But do you know who is looking at the data? Doctors, scientists, and researchers working for various companies, schools, and agencies. And I'm gonna trust those experts, because they know a fuckload more about all of this than me. I'm not gonna trust some random on the internet jumping to conclusions that actual experts aren't. That's not a slight against you personally, it's more a general sentiment. I don't go to comments sections for medical information.

[StayTuned]

It's a shitshow and we have a lot of questions without answers, yeah. But that we don't have answers doesn't mean that jumping to conclusions is any better, sometimes we just don't have answers.

I'm not a doctor. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a researcher. I haven't looked at the data.

But do you know who is looking at the data? Doctors, scientists, and researchers working for various companies, schools, and agencies. And I'm gonna trust those experts, because they know a fuckload more about all of this than me. I'm not gonna trust some random on the internet jumping to conclusions that actual experts aren't. That's not a slight against you personally, it's more a general sentiment. I don't go to comments sections for medical information.

Exactly. I don't go to comments for medical advice. I was told here by posters to shut up and take AZ. Now it's being pulled from the shells for investigation in causal connections with otherwise incredibly rare brain blood clots. Like come on, it doesn't get more surreal than this.

[PhaelixWW]

pffff why? Because I prefer one product over another?

Because you not only willfully ignored the actual scientific data, but also passed off bullshit conjecture as fact, solely because it aligned with your preconceived conceit.

If the shoe fits...

[Granyala]

Exactly. I don't go to comments for medical advice. I was told here by posters to shut up and take AZ. Now it's being pulled from the shells for investigation in causal connections with otherwise incredibly rare brain blood clots. Like come on, it doesn't get more surreal than this.

Data like this only becomes visible once you vaccinate a lot of people. There was no way to predict this.
I agree that it sucks that we cannot choose our poison, I'd even be willing to pay for it myself but that's life.

Personally speaking: I don't know yet what this will mean for me, I was due in 3 weeks but depending on the investigation that may not work out. I get that it is difficult to trust the recommendations, especially when so many folks make a political shitshow out of what should be a scientific endeavor.

[PhaelixWW]

Exactly. I don't go to comments for medical advice. I was told here by posters to shut up and take AZ. Now it's being pulled from the shells for investigation in causal connections with otherwise incredibly rare brain blood clots. Like come on, it doesn't get more surreal than this.

I see no report of a causal link found. Care to supply actual, credible reporting that supports this claim?

Everything I've seen indicates that the prevalence of blood clots among AZ vaccine recipients is the same or even lower than the standard prevalence. Care to supply actual, credible reporting that supports your claim of "otherwise"?

[PACOX]

But you do understand that no one is using that information to start a war against the pill and tell people how it's killing women? Especially since the pill is around for 60 years.

No one is trying to start a war against COVID vaccines. Not in this instance though. One vaccine was pulled, and realistically only to potentially identify a group that may be adversely impacted by. The same way doctors know how not prescribe certain medicines under a particular category. Or could just be a fluke. Either way the goal is to increase confidence by following through and reassuring people through a brief investigation. If nothing is found, AZ is back in rotation, if something is then it's dealt with. Either way people know they arent being injected haphazardly.


In the meantime there are other vaccines and prevention methods to fill the void. There's a reason why all vaccines don't utilize the same technology, just in case a group may not be able to one but can use another. The method AZ uses is known to be problematic when used for other treatments.

[Mayhem]

No one is trying to start a war against COVID vaccines. Not in this instance though. One vaccine was pulled, and realistically only to potentially identify a group that may be adversely impacted by. The same way doctors know how not prescribe certain medicines under a particular category. Or could just be a fluke. Either way the goal is to increase confidence by following through and reassuring people through a brief investigation. If nothing is found, AZ is back in rotation, if something is then it's dealt with. Either way people know they arent being injected haphazardly.


In the meantime there are other vaccines and prevention methods to fill the void. There's a reason why all vaccines don't utilize the same technology, just in case a group may not be able to one but can use another. The method AZ uses is known to be problematic when used for other treatments.

It's blown out of proportion. Like, it's so way out of being meaningful information I am equally amused and terrified by people using it as an argument.

3 out of 10.000 women get blood clotting on average. With taking the pill that rate doubles to 6 out of 10.000. What's the supposed rate with the vaccine? 30 out of 5 million or 0.06 out of 10.000.

Wouldn't it be nice if the people that are up in arms about these "findings" would be equally outraged about the death toll caused by covid. But no, a death rate of 15.000 per 5 million apparently isn't serious enough.

[StayTuned]

Because you not only willfully ignored the actual scientific data, but also passed off bullshit conjecture as fact, solely because it aligned with your preconceived conceit.

If the shoe fits...

AZ has:

• The most side effects reported from all authorized vaccines https://www.aponet.de/artikel/ein-mo...aten-auf-22955

Cases per 1000 shots Avg Biontech/Pfizer Moderna AstraZeneca Total 2,0 1,6 2,9 7,6 Serious cases 0,6 0,3 0,6 3,7

• Is currently under investigation and was pulled from the market due to a high suspicion of causing otherwise extremely rare cases of brain blood clots. https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-ne...t221?nn=164440

Compared to the status on 11 March 2021, additional cases (as of Monday, 15 March 2021) have now been reported in Germany. Analysing the new data status, the experts of the Paul-Ehrlich-Institut now see a striking accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in connection with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca.

• The cheapest one. Who would have thought? https://www.zmescience.com/other/fea...id-19-vaccine/

Manufacturer EU price per dose US price per dose AstraZeneca $2 $4 Johnson&Johnson $8.50 $10 Sanofi/GSK $9.20 Pfizer/BioNTech $14.50 $19.5 CureVac $12.10 Moderna $18.00 $15 Novavax $16

• The least effective one. 70% vs otherwise 72-95% https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/364685

I am not the crazy one here, it's you. If I am anti vax, you are part of a vax cult. There is nothing wrong with demanding high quality products. The fact some people continue to pretend as if Oxford shat out the panacea to all diseases is beyond any reason to me.

[Edge-]

AZ has:

• The most side effects reported from all authorized vaccines https://www.aponet.de/artikel/ein-mo...aten-auf-22955

Although the reporting rate of suspected adverse reactions for the AstraZeneca vaccine in Germany is currently higher than that for the two mRNA vaccines, according to the PEI, this does not necessarily mean that the vaccine actually triggers more reactions. The increased reporting rate could also be related to increased media attention to the vaccine and the different age groups of the vaccinated persons. "Many reports have also been reported as feeling serious, although, for example, there have been temporary fever reactions," the PEI writes in its latest report. "Apparently, at least in the UK, there was not a big difference in reporting rates between Comirnaty and the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca," the PEI added.

So the context for that data doesn't make it as scary as it seems.

• Is currently under investigation and was pulled from the market due to a high suspicion of causing otherwise extremely rare cases of brain blood clots. https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-ne...t221?nn=164440

Eyyyy, some actual evidence! Hopefully it's nothing major, but this lends a lot of weight to the concerns and justifies pulling the vaccine for now. I don't think anyone was opposed to pulling it out of an abundance of caution, mostly in the pre-emptive framing of the virus as causal before any evidence was discovered as to why. Now we know, and knowing is half the battle, thanks for sharing.

GI Joe.

[Logwyn]

Well, here we go:


Let's hope that my body plays nice and that I am healthy when the time comes.

I'm set up for this Friday and the second whenever I'm supposed to take it. Three doctors said for me to get it. Let's hope there are not fevers and chills and such. I hear its the second shot that does it.

[Edge-]

lol... just a page back you were opposed to it...

No, I wasn't. I was against saying the vaccine caused the blood clots without evidence to back it. I expressed multiple times this was pulled already in what was likely an abundance of caution while they investigated. This is precisely what should happen. Identify potential issue, pause to investigate to see if it's an actual issue or not.

[Shadowferal]

These charts have been all over the place after the J&J vaccine got approved in the US. Makes sense that a lot of people don't know the difference between the different technologies.

Hmf...AZ and J&J using the same process...?

[Yunru]

153k vaccinated in sweden with it... 6 cases of blood clots so far after vaccination...

If everyone would get this vaccine here then 78 people would die from it. That is realy high number and right now my country has 3,938 dead from it.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

1,894 dead from 1 milion population is pretty bad.

[PACOX]

Hmf...AZ and J&J using the same process...?

Yup. JJ trials were cleaner than AZs though.

[PhaelixWW]

AZ has:

The most side effects reported from all authorized vaccines

Nobody here is claiming the the AstraZeneca vaccine is the best of them. I would, however, point out that the AZ vaccine is the latest of those three, and with vaccine news recently being disproportionately dominated by these reports of rare side effects, it's only natural that they're being reported more than ever. Self-reporting bias is a thing.

Again, that's not to say that there aren't legitimately more issues with the AZ vaccine. But they're still not common, despite your characterization.

Is currently under investigation and was pulled from the market[/U] due to a high suspicion of causing otherwise extremely rare cases of brain blood clots.

This is just asinine. Every vaccine is under continued "investigation". Some countries issuing a temporary suspension isn't the same as being "pulled from the market". There's no "high suspicion" of causation. And blood clots are still rare with the vaccine, not "otherwise" rare.

I mean, seriously, you're just pointing out your own exaggerations here.

The cheapest one.[/U] Who would have thought? The least effective one. 70% vs otherwise 72-95%

Again, nobody is claiming it's the best vaccine option. You're sneering at 70% effective, but that's just because you have no clue what you're talking about. The goal here was 50%. Flu vaccines, for example, are less effective on average.

And yes, it's good to have a cheaper option. That will be of immense importance worldwide.

I am not the crazy one here, it's you. If I am anti vax, you are part of a vax cult.

It's been a long time since I've heard the "I'm rubber and you're glue" comeback. How very gradeschool.

There is nothing wrong with demanding high quality products.

And yet that's not what you're doing. If all you had said was "I'd prefer to get one of the others", there'd be no problem here. Instead, you're lying about the facts to try and get a "told you so" moment, that you're desperate for.

The fact some people continue to pretend as if Oxford shat out the panacea to all diseases is beyond any reason to me.

Literally nobody is doing or saying that. It's all in your head, just like your "alternate facts".

[Zan15]

If everyone would get this vaccine here then 78 people would die from it. That is realy high number and right now my country has 3,938 dead from it.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

1,894 dead from 1 milion population is pretty bad.

has anyone died from those blood clots?

wouldn't it still be right now 0 dead out of 1 million population?

[PhaelixWW]

If everyone would get this vaccine here then 78 people would die from it. That is realy high number and right now my country has 3,938 dead from it.

FFS. There have been, what, 30 million or so doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine administered? And there have been, what, maybe 5 or so deaths from blood clots among recipients? There's no evidence of a causal link yet, but even if every single one of those was a direct result of the AZ vaccine, then you'd have to live in a country with some 500 million people to see 78 people die at that rate.

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has anyone died from those blood clots?

wouldn't it still be right now 0 dead out of 1 million population?

I think 2 in Norway and 1 each in Sweden and Italy. I'm not really finding more instances.

Published about 15 minutes ago:

NYTimes: Should You Be Concerned About Blood Clots, Bleeding and the AZ-Vaccine?

There is no evidence so far of a link between the AstraZeneca shots and a few new cases in Europe of serious illness and deaths. But investigations are underway.

Millions of people in dozens of countries have received the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine with few reports of ill effects, and its prior testing in tens of thousands of people found it to be safe.

But recently, blood clots and abnormal bleeding in a small number of vaccine recipients in European countries have cast doubt on its safety, although no causative link has been found between the patients’ conditions and the vaccine. The reports have prompted more than a dozen countries to either partly or fully suspend the vaccine’s use while the cases are investigated. Most of the nations said they were doing so as a precaution until leading health agencies could review the cases.

What types of problems caused the countries to take precautionary steps?

The cascade of decisions to pause the use of AstraZeneca’s vaccine, mainly by European countries, followed reports of four serious cases in Norway, which were described among health workers under age 50 who received the vaccine. Most developed clots or bleeding abnormalities and had low platelet counts, health authorities there said. Two of them have died from brain hemorrhages, and the other two are hospitalized. The death of a 60-year-old woman in Denmark and of a 57-year-old man in Italy also fueled quick decisions, although none of the deaths have been fully investigated to determine whether there is any link to the shots they received.

Can the vaccine cause blood clots?

Vaccines have not been shown to cause blood clots, said Daniel Salmon, director of the Institute for Vaccine Safety at Johns Hopkins University.

Blood clots are common in the general population, and health authorities suspect that the cases reported in vaccine recipients are most likely coincidental and not related to the vaccination.

“There are a lot of causes of blood clotting, a lot of predisposing factors, and a lot of people who are at increased risk — and these are often also the people who are being vaccinated right now,” said Mark Slifka, a vaccine researcher at Oregon Health and Science University.

From 300,000 to 600,000 people a year in the United States develop blood clots in their lungs or in veins in the legs or other parts of the body, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Based on that data, about 1,000 to 2,000 blood clots occur in the U.S. population every day, according to Dr. Stephan Moll, a hematologist and professor of medicine at the University of North Carolina.

“The United States has 253 million adults,” Dr. Moll said. “So, if every day 2.3 million people in the United States get Covid-vaccinated, that means about 1 percent of the adult population gets vaccinated every day.”

Calculating further, he said, roughly 1 percent of the 1,000 to 2,000 daily blood clots — 10 to 20 a day — would occur in the vaccinated patients just as part of the normal background rates, not related to the vaccine.

“Only if epidemiological data show that that rate is higher, would one start to wonder about a causative relationship,” Dr. Moll said.

What can existing data on AstraZeneca’s vaccine tell us?

Dr. David Wohl, director of the vaccine clinic at the University of North Carolina, said he had seen no evidence that any of the Covid vaccines had caused blood clots, also called thrombosis, in the large clinical trials that led to their authorization.

But Dr. Wohl also noted, “There are differences between trials and real life.”

The most extensive safety results from the real-world rollout of AstraZeneca’s vaccine come from Britain, where 9.7 million doses of the vaccine had been given out through last month. Britain’s data found that at least some clotting conditions, while extremely rare, were equally prevalent for people vaccinated with AstraZeneca’s vaccine compared to those who got Pfizer’s product. But abnormally low platelet levels were more common among people who got AstraZeneca’s vaccine.

Outside trials, the vaccines are given to a broader array of people. So if safety questions arise once a vaccine comes into more general use, the questions should be investigated, Dr. Wohl said.

“We don’t want to ignore a signal that could indicate a larger problem,” he said. “But at this point it’s premature to think AstraZeneca causes thrombosis.”

There's more, but you get the point.