Why is Sire so hard even for "AOTC" groups?

[Danvash]

Why would anyone with 220+ item level do sire though, unless they have shitty weapons and everything else is from mythic raiding or very high keys?

But yeah you're not wrong. Heroic raids are just way overtuned for the gear that they give.

Because drops in this expansion are super fucking rare for some reason. I've killed him and Stone Legion 9 times each, and I'm still missing a 220 offhand and most regal signet. I can't even get the regal signet from normal mode.

[kail]

It's a fight the relies on smart movement throughout the 2nd and 3rd phase. Melee dps are prob not soaking in 3rd phase, people are probably getting knocked off, dodge mechanics sometimes stack when adds die, tanks need to swap and move the boss without a hiccup, all while needing "decent" dps to beat his timer.

Our guild may have him on farm status but still a fight where a lot can go wrong.

[Freedom]

I do not waste anyone's time. I don't raid, because I'm expected to "put in work". Let me tell you something. I put in work when I'm at work.

So don't raid then. I don't see a problem here, except a bit of judgment on your part of people over a very silly thing - what kind of content they enjoy in a video game.

[neescher]

I hear people say "Denathrius HC is way too hard, he can't be killed by the average player" all the time.

Maybe he's not *supposed* to be killed in heroic by "average" players? If everyone could kill all the bosses, where would be the fun in that? I think it's fun to earn those kills, that makes it much more satisfying when you finally kill them. I never understood that "BUT I'M PAYING $15 TOO, I DESERVE TO KILL EVERY BOSS ON EVERY DIFFICULTY" mentality. It happens in no other hobby. You don't see people at some sports tournament saying "it's my turn to win now, I deserve to win as much as everyone else". Different people have different skill sets, and some people are better at wow than others. That doesn't mean every content in the game has to be dumbed down so much that everyone can defeat it right away. People can still experience the raid and the story a couple months later, when they are able to outgear it with gear from the next raid tier - you don't need the AOTC achievement to experience the story/raid.

[kneehidude]

First of all: in not that good anymore, and i dont play in a great guild.
On topic: we killer Sire HC two weeks ago after around 90wipes. And havent killed him het again.(I know alot). We one shotted M shriekwing, and got Huntsman in 15 tries.
Conclusion; Sire is extremly hard for a HC Boss. But awesome. And the more people in it, makers the fight alot harder.

I don't think that's a fair statement. Generally speaking (granted I raided back in Wrath - WoD) the final boss of the first difficulty is a lot harder than the first few bosses of the second difficulty. IE, Normal Sire would be harder than Shriekwing and Huntsman on heroic. Heroic Sire would be harder than Mythic Shriekwing and Huntsman.

- - - Updated - - -

I hear people say "Denathrius HC is way too hard, he can't be killed by the average player" all the time.

Maybe he's not *supposed* to be killed in heroic by "average" players? If everyone could kill all the bosses, where would be the fun in that? I think it's fun to earn those kills, that makes it much more satisfying when you finally kill them. I never understood that "BUT I'M PAYING $15 TOO, I DESERVE TO KILL EVERY BOSS ON EVERY DIFFICULTY" mentality. It happens in no other hobby. You don't see people at some sports tournament saying "it's my turn to win now, I deserve to win as much as everyone else". Different people have different skill sets, and some people are better at wow than others. That doesn't mean every content in the game has to be dumbed down so much that everyone can defeat it right away. People can still experience the raid and the story a couple months later, when they are able to outgear it with gear from the next raid tier - you don't need the AOTC achievement to experience the story/raid.

I think some people (granted, I'm speaking for me and me alone) are saying it more from the perspective of "I've killed bosses along this caliber before but am struggling now, it might not be tuned appropriately."

[HansOlo]

I got my AOTC a few weeks ago in a guild run, and I have not killed Sire a single time since then. I always join "AOTC only" groups, and I even check the other people myself, it's almost always a full group of 10/10H......and yet we just wipe endlessly in phase 3 every time, never getting the boss below 10% even.

What's the deal?

It's always been like that(and I have been a PuG leader for many years). Just like yourself - people got lucky with a group once.

It's like in PvP - good players are done with the rating. All you have left is the latebloomers you can pick from.

[anon5123]

I hear people say "Denathrius HC is way too hard, he can't be killed by the average player" all the time.

Maybe he's not *supposed* to be killed in heroic by "average" players? If everyone could kill all the bosses, where would be the fun in that?

It's not that, it's that he's way fuckin' harder than any previous boss by a huge margin. Which is likely the reason why Blizzard changed the vault to only require 9 boss kills instead of 10: because tons of people were stuck 9/10 in whatever difficulty they were progressing on.

I don't mind a boss being hard, but I do mind a boss having an insanely sharp difficulty curve.

[neescher]

I think some people (granted, I'm speaking for me and me alone) are saying it more from the perspective of "I've killed bosses along this caliber before but am struggling now, it might not be tuned appropriately."

Fair enough.

I like that there's a challenging boss for once - I played the first 2 raid tiers in Legion and the first raid tier in BFA, and while G'huun was probably way harder than any other of the bosses from those tiers, he still was too easy for a endboss in my opinion.

Denathrius is challenging, but not unkillable. I've been pugging him for more than 10 weeks on my main (healer), and for about half that time on my alt (dps), consistently every week in less than 30-40 min.

[potis]

It's not that, it's that he's way fuckin' harder than any previous boss by a huge margin. Which is likely the reason why Blizzard changed the vault to only require 9 boss kills instead of 10: because tons of people were stuck 9/10 in whatever difficulty they were progressing on.

I don't mind a boss being hard, but I do mind a boss having an insanely sharp difficulty curve.

He is not harder, he doesnt do some amazing new mechanic.

He exposes weaker players because he has apart from the soaking the Fatal Finesse only personal mechanics.

Many bosses over the years had a minimal amount of 100% personal mechanic, that no one can help you with, you have to do it yourself.

Sire is the opposite, he is literally 90% personal mechanics and mini-raid soaks.

P1 fucked up getting knocked far and didnt get cleansed? No one can help with that.

P2 Crescento of yourself and others? Massacre? No one can help you to dodge.

At least he pulls the raid in with hand, therefor tanks can make sure the rest dont fail with proper door tanking.

P3 Knockback, Massacre same as p2, no one can help you to position properly to get knocked but yourself.

Again the above arent hard, but weaker players will eventually get caught and no one can save them but themselves so the better players cant be assigned to the mechanic to get things done smoothly.

Its completely different than the lets say after second Ravage the hand of destruction that there isnt anywhere to go and requires raid wide coordination, thats for the whole raid to do personals/Spirit Link/Aura Mastery etc to counter the actually dangerous part of the fight since there isnt much distance left and its a nice 30k hit no matter what.

[kneehidude]

Fair enough.

I like that there's a challenging boss for once - I played the first 2 raid tiers in Legion and the first raid tier in BFA, and while G'huun was probably way harder than any other of the bosses from those tiers, he still was too easy for a endboss in my opinion.

Denathrius is challenging, but not unkillable. I've been pugging him for more than 10 weeks on my main (healer), and for about half that time on my alt (dps), consistently every week in less than 30-40 min.

I just know for me personally. In MoP, I progression raided normal/heroic (heroic/mythic by todays standards) and my guild was able to clear normal and about half to 3/4 heroic before the next tier hit. In WoD, all of a sudden, heroic took a lot of our progression time and we usually only got 1-3 bosses on mythic before the next tier. Kinda took the wind out of our sails a bit.

[Thalrend]

I got my AOTC a few weeks ago in a guild run, and I have not killed Sire a single time since then. I always join "AOTC only" groups, and I even check the other people myself, it's almost always a full group of 10/10H......and yet we just wipe endlessly in phase 3 every time, never getting the boss below 10% even.

What's the deal?

Because that fight is about personal responsibility and fuck ups mostly ends up with deaths. Having sire curve means nothing unless you got in the first or the second week, since after third pugs were able to get it in a consistent manner, good pugs at that, but before that if you were bad you were pretty much uncarriable in a pug environment. Logs are a good indicator atm for pugs, not achivements sadly. The dude with %12 sire log average chances are just got lucky and carried. The dude with 1 sire kill probably got boosted.

Its shit to assume this but if you dont have multiple kills with a decent log average, you are boosted in that fight %90 of the time. You get 10 of these dudes in your group and bam, you cannot kill sire anymore since nobody is there to boost them.

[Argorwal]

He’s definitely one of the harder heroic end bosses, which I feel is great for the mass of guilds that have heroic as their end game. Not quite at heroic KJ levels.

A nice challenging end boss that feels rewarding to kill is great. Way better than a recent snooze fest like Nzoth.

[Jastall]

He's harder than the average Heroic endboss, consistent with CN being a harder than average raid at this difficulty (and Normal as well). He requires decent DPS, but more importantly he's a huge mechanics and timing check. Phase 1 is fairly easy, but phase 2 already ramps up the pressure with mechanics that must be obeyed lest people get gibbed/knocked off the platform, and phase 3 has a couple insane overlaps on top of soaks being beyond shit for melees.

He's a fun boss overall and highly thematic, but phase 3 is really kind of ridiculous. IMO 2 soaks would have been enough.

[Nightstalker]

Several binary survival checks and a lot of grp management compared to other end bosses.

[hulkgor]

Jeeze, raiding sounds dreadful. Why would you willingly subject yourself to something like this?
I play video games to have fun, not to experience a "job interview" again.

Let's not make it out as some super complex interactions took place.

"right click name -> copy raider.io link", you can see if they killed the boss, how many times, their ilvl, and have a quick link for their logs (if any).

It's a 5 sec action that ensures higher success chances for the group.

[Not A Cat]

Your best bet OP is to try and find a guild run on Tuesday/Wednesday.

From my experience there's very little headache compared to your run of the mill AOTC pug

[Argorwal]

And he just took a 9% HP nerf which is huge.

[anon5123]

Your best bet OP is to try and find a guild run on Tuesday/Wednesday.

From my experience there's very little headache compared to your run of the mill AOTC pug

Yeah, that's usually what I end up doing. I try to get my weekly CN clear done Tuesday night, since that's when most of the good guilds/groups get it done.

This week I got lucky and found a Mythic guild doing their 10/10 H clear on Saturday night. We blew through the whole place in 2 hours, 1shotting everything and then only taking 2 attempts on Sire. Though they really only took me because I was a Monk, and they wanted me to pass the weapon token to the warrior that they were funneling gear to. Fine by me, I already have a 220 weapon.

[MrLachyG]

I was in an LFR Sire and the tanks kept messing up and dying. Called them out and they both linked their AOTC, which clearly ment nothing as they kept screwing up a damned LFR fight.

Lots of paid achievements out there.

I've actually found that LFR Sire is one of the easier bosses in there. sure, some groups wipe a couple of times but usually by pull 2-3 they get it. Huntsman and Artificer are way worse; even Shriekwing can be a pain if you have colossal fuckknuckles in the group

they have nerfed his HP (9%) and damage (10%) of Hand of Destruction so that should help

[Tiradon]

And he just took a 9% HP nerf which is huge.

Yeah and having to be careful in p1 when pushing the 70%... Nice for heroic guilds struggling tho Welcome change