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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    Flying as a concept is fine, personally I think making them the fastest mounts in the game is the issue.
    This. 415% flying speed is too much when groud speed is capped at 200% (or 220%). I would buff ground travel to 400% and nerf flying to 300%. And make ground mount behave like the mana sabers in Suramar, meaning you have momentum and can't just turn 180° in a heartbeat. Also you start at 200% speed that increases to 400% the longer you run.
    Last edited by LordVargK; 2021-03-16 at 08:28 AM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Then the issue becomes "I want to fly but the XP gains are too much for me to lose"

    Like how Warmode currently is. "I keep getting ganked but I want the XP gain but I don't want to PvP to get it." WoW players want all the benefits without any of the detriments.
    Because flying is already clearly something Blizzard has to keep away from the base game to have a meaningful open world. Adding it in later is essentially them acpitulating and letting players have their way with it. It clesarly doesnt add anything except allowing players to skip content they don't want to do anymore, which is a noble sentiment, but does mean that flying is inherently not good for the gameplay.

    What I want is for flying to be changed in such a way that it can be a part of the base game without it completely undermining the open world. The version fo flying we have is so insanely broken that the only real way to build around it is to prevent it entirely, which is not a good compromise for either side of the argument.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    This. 415% flying speed is too much when groud speed is capped at 200% (or 220%). I would buff ground travel to 400% and nerf flying to 300%. And make ground mount behave like the mana sabers in Suramar, meaning you have momentum and can't just turn 180° in a heartbeat. Also you start at 200% speed that increases to 400% the longer you run.
    I mean, you could also rework flying so it requires skill.

    The most apt comparision for the kind of flying we have in WoW is creative mode flight from Minecraft. It can be done from anywhere at no cost, allows full 3D movement and has no real way to screw it up.
    Compare this however ot the other means of flight in Survival, the Elytra, which is difficult to get, requires a level of skill to use accurately and drains resources when used.

    The kind of flying we have in WoW is really not the kind any game should give to its players to use as a gameplay element.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #143
    The problem with flying is the devs took one pass at mounted combat and gave up. If they simply kept at it after the Argent Tournament they could have made workable mounted and aerial combat.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Honestly I really don't get how players look at the different expansions and say that the ones with flying in them were the ones that had the most in-depth open owrld gameplay.

    Do players honestly want giant flat zones back where endgame is a single platform only there because they need to justify flying being available somehow? Couldnt it just as well be accessed by a flight path or something?`
    Yes. Having a zone with many obstacles that is difficult to navigate (Nazjatar *cough*) is interesting for like 2 weeks. Then you know the zone and only interact with it when grinding something. And grinding is not fun, so grinding that takes longer because the zone design makes it cumbersome is even less fun.
    If I were to choose between vanilla Barrens and Nazjatar and no flying was available, I would choose barrens to do my grinding in. Nazjatar is by far the more interesting zone. But it's just annoying after 2 weeks.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Yes. Having a zone with many obstacles that is difficult to navigate (Nazjatar *cough*) is interesting for like 2 weeks. Then you know the zone and only interact with it when grinding something. And grinding is not fun, so grinding that takes longer because the zone design makes it cumbersome is even less fun.
    If I were to choose between vanilla Barrens and Nazjatar and no flying was available, I would choose barrens to do my grinding in. Nazjatar is by far the more interesting zone. But it's just annoying after 2 weeks.
    Nazjatar is still a significant iteration on older zones.
    You agree Nazjatar is a more unique zone, though annoying to navigate. Flying might seem like a fix, but it only really removes the navigation aspect.
    I would much rather Blizzard continues to iterate, making navigating the landscape even more fun and interesting without having to rely on flying to remove the entire aspect.

    Experimenting does inherently leave room to fail, and fail miserably, but it is still preferable to not experimenting at all and having the game stagnate.
    The game has had large improvements. Even the mission table had had many iterations until we have the somewhat engaging one we have now, and I think the game is better for it.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    I like this idea of needing "take-off-strips", so to speak, but it'd be hell to implement it backwards through all expansion, but maybe something going forward. And honestly you wouldn't even need landing strips, it'd be enough hassle to get to a place where you can take to the skies again.

    Personally i would love it if they made flying more immersive by, well, making it more like flying. Rather than a flat speed boost i'd like them to introduce gravity and momentum, perhaps winds and more such stuff.

    Hell it always dusappoints me to no end that they managed to find a way to allow us to play with our pets, yet neglect our mounts to the point that they're just eyecandy slapped on top of a flat speed boost, at best.

    So yeah, flying definitely needs to ve extended, preferably in a properly integrated way, maybe even revamp it into a system analogous to the pet battle system so that people can engage in aerial combat, it would add a new dimension to world pvp.
    I doubt the playerbase of wow would welcome a complicated system for flying. People want to mount up and fly. This has been the thing since BC. We can like it or not, but ever since they introduced flying the way they did, theres no turning back.

    If Blizzard added a system for flying that people had to have control over, it would cause more frustration than good. Cause for years we have had the option of flying with ease everywhere. Theres also already enough systems within the game as it stands.

    Blizzard probably deeply regret putting flying into the game, atleast to some degree. But they did.

    The only thing I could see them do is introduce a mount system that is a major feature in new xpac(like class hall, garrison, etc). Were you can change apperance of your mounts, make them do various stuff etc. But again, they would have to be careful with this. People are so used to mount up and fly straight away, they cant make something like this to convoluded or complicated.

    Put the blame on Blizzard for flying. Besides, theres really no excuse in making shit ground content just because flying is in the game. SL world content will still be shit with flying. It would be shit right now if we could fly.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The experience with 3D zones has not been a happy one for either Blizzard or players. While I personally love Vashj'ir from Cataclysm this was far and away the least popular zone at the time. It's one of their best designed zones and apart from being underwater was no different from a zone fully designed for flying. A lot of people were put off by the idea of being attacked from all angles including above and below.
    You misunderstood my comment - it had absolutely nothing to do with combat at all. Not entirely sure why you bring up underwater combat?

    We do agree on why most ppl seemed to dislike the zone, but again, I am entirely unsure what bearing that has on the conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    I doubt the playerbase of wow would welcome a complicated system for flying. People want to mount up and fly. This has been the thing since BC. We can like it or not, but ever since they introduced flying the way they did, theres no turning back.

    If Blizzard added a system for flying that people had to have control over, it would cause more frustration than good. Cause for years we have had the option of flying with ease everywhere. Theres also already enough systems within the game as it stands.

    Blizzard probably deeply regret putting flying into the game, atleast to some degree. But they did.

    The only thing I could see them do is introduce a mount system that is a major feature in new xpac(like class hall, garrison, etc). Were you can change apperance of your mounts, make them do various stuff etc. But again, they would have to be careful with this. People are so used to mount up and fly straight away, they cant make something like this to convoluded or complicated.

    Put the blame on Blizzard for flying. Besides, theres really no excuse in making shit ground content just because flying is in the game. SL world content will still be shit with flying. It would be shit right now if we could fly.
    Just because players want it doesn't mean it is good.

    People want to not be hindered in any way, that is a perfectly human reaction, but this is a video game, it has to be restrictive for there to be a point.
    I am sure many players would love a vendor that gives them all the best gear so they can go into Mythic unhindered, or be able to skip levelling to get to the endgame unhindered.

    I have always found that players have more fun when they have a restrictive system with lots of leeway, not by breaking the game.
    I am sure there are those who would disagree, but I had far more fun playing Survival Minecraft and building a cool house then I ever had just building a similar house in creative. The endpoint is still the same, but by removing the challenge the satisfaction is lost.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  9. #149
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You misunderstood my comment - it had absolutely nothing to do with combat at all. Not entirely sure why you bring up underwater combat?

    We do agree on why most ppl seemed to dislike the zone, but again, I am entirely unsure what bearing that has on the conversation.
    Because Vashj'ir is a fully vertical zone—which a lot of players disliked—and you said the game ought to do more vertical design. It's fine to disagree but I don't think my original point was off the mark. Underwater doesn't matter. There's no real difference in mechanics between swimming around underwater and swimming around in the atmosphere.
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  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Flying as it exists in WoW needs to be changed, the version we have is so stupidly broken as a movement option that the only possible way ot balance content around it is to completely remove it.
    Alternative movement options completely fail when compared to the option that is mounting up and flying from anywhere.

    The current compromise offered players is that flying is disabled entirely until later in an expansion, which does work in giving flying, but doesnt really satisfy either camp. Those who want the convenience of flying only getting it when the content is mostly deprecated, whereas those that doon't want flying to instead focus on better open world content essentially having their preferred version fo the game removed halfway through.

    What I then propose is a rework of flying that instead nerfs it in such a way that most of the convenience, in this case quick movement is preserved, with ground content still being a regular part of the game.


    Quite simply, flying is now only allowed from set points in a zone.
    To help visualize how thios would work imagine the zone of Maldraxxus. In this system flying could for example only be possible starting from the Seat of the Primus, you could then use flying to reach wherever you wanted on the map unhindered, though when you land and engage in content on the ground you would be locked to the ground, necessitating the use of ground mounts, with all the pros and cons that comes with it.

    In this way flying could be introduced earlier as the essential factor of ground content being a part of the game is preserved.
    Secondly it would also make the rules of flight more transparent. Absolute no-fly zones like Throne of Thunder or Argus would not be ground mounts only because flying is disabled, but instead because there does not exist areas that allow you to start flying.

    Another great factor to this version would be that flying could more easily be made easier or harder simply by adding more areas that allow flying in a zone. If Blizzard wants to use, say, the Barrens as a questing zone, they do not need to dismount players who fly, or similar tricks, but instead simply remove the areas in the Barrens that would allow you to start flying, allowing a far more organic and seamless exploration of the world that both allows flying and also doesnt completely undermine the idea of the game being ground based.


    Further discussion on alternatives to the current flight system as a whole welcome.
    This just sounds more like an unnecessary hurdle than a benefit.

    Flight, as we have it, is fine to be rewarded by progressing the game. I just think it was a little silly to remove the flight master's whistle.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    This just sounds more like an unnecessary hurdle than a benefit.

    Flight, as we have it, is fine to be rewarded by progressing the game. I just think it was a little silly to remove the flight master's whistle.
    It being a hurdle is the point. Overcoming small hurdles is what playing games is about.

    Flying as it currently exists is far, far more powerful than any other game. The closest equivalent is flying as it exists in creative tools like Garry's mod or Minecraft.

    I don't want flying to be removed, I want flying to not be completely dominant as a movement option.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  12. #152
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
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    The only way to make flight better is to revert to how it was in BC/LK. And/or stop forcing players constantly into outdoor content at max level.

  13. #153
    I think flying was very lazily implemented.

    I'd have likes to see more physics added to it, so you could gain speed by diving, etc. Have windy "streams" in the air that can boost your speed along specific paths (and even let you AFK along them). Make the flight master's whistle a baseline ability.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    I think flying was very lazily implemented.

    I'd have likes to see more physics added to it, so you could gain speed by diving, etc. Have windy "streams" in the air that can boost your speed along specific paths (and even let you AFK along them). Make the flight master's whistle a baseline ability.
    Ideally I think flying should be made so it's not able to take off from anywhere, then also make it so flying requires a level of skill, gaining heigh especially being difficult.

    In that way flying could a tally be added from the beginning, in theory even as part of levelling. As it stands it is just antithetical to open world content and that really is a shame for something once touted as a selling point.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #155
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Making flying better: reach max level in <insert xpac name>, go to the flying trainer, acquire Flying for that xpac. Fly away

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    The most boring part of wow is the travel. It actually stops me from wanting to play the game. I don't want to sit down to play the game only to have to wait 5 mins to get my character to where he needs to be and then to spend another 5 mins riding around a mountain. Travelling is not content. It is a barrier.
    interestingly, i have the opposite experience
    i somehow enjoy running to Scarlet Monastery from Ironforge more than the dungeon itself, maybe cause something unexpected can happen and there is nothing unexpected inside the dungeon, even some idiot pulling half of it isn't a big surprise lol
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  17. #157
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    Each flying mount, depending on its quality and type, will have a certain amount of stamina/fuel as an intrinsic attribute, as well as, each one may even have a different recovery rate.

    When using any flying mount, a sort of fatigue bar that represents its stamina level, will empty depending on the time of use and the height at which it is.

    The stamina will gradually recover by allowing the mount to rest (after not using it for a while). Mounts recover faster if we are in a rest zone and it is even possible that some areas affect the rate of recovery of stamina, which would imply that a zone may be more or less "friendly" for flying mounts.

    When a mount depletes its stamina, it drastically loses its speed and height, becoming deactivated once on the ground. If this happens, we won't be able to call the mount again until it has fully regenerated its stamina. For practical purposes it would be like a kind of "cooldown time".

    Thus, if we use a mount very frequently, we will soon exhaust all its stamina, forcing us to wait for it to recover completely, BUT if we only use our flying mount from time to time and with measure, we will not deplete its stamina completely, avoiding having to wait to call it again. In short: we have a certain flight time and we are those who decide how to manage it.

    To avoid abuse in combat and PVP, the mounts cannot be called if we are in combat, but when the combat ends, an additional cooling time will begin, after which it will be allowed to call them and make use of them.

    In addition, if a flying mount takes damage in mid-flight, it will lose some of its stamina, and may even be forced to descend.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    YOu don't see it as a problem that some players are so apathetic to the game that they openly admit ot not wanting to engage in it? Surely the game should actually be desigend in such a way that players enjoy it.

    You don't get good content if the developers capitulate and allow players to ignore it at every juncture.

    Flying isn't the problem. Lack of engaging content is.

    Don't blame the mechanic for the developers not putting in content that would make the players want to travel normally.

    Imagine if there were random events that happened when you were walking around the world? WoW is way behind in this regard. Games like FF online and Rift have been doing this type of thing for years. Imagine if you could not activate / see these events while flying? People would be inclined to travel on land more and see the content.

    On another note, why are ground mounts still limited to 100% speed? If they were at 200% to 300% people might utilize them more than their flying counterparts. Maybe even have a mount where you leap farther + take reduced falling damage to encourage creative traveling on the mount. Why is dazing mechanic still a thing? Why is there still a 1.5 second cast time for ground mounts? Stuff like these are why people prefer to fly as you don't have to deal with slow travel, mobs, or recasting every time.
    Last edited by LionSinMaikeru; 2021-03-16 at 12:31 PM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Blizzard game. Blizzard rules. You don't get to dictate how they set up their game. And no, it doesn't work perfectly otherwise Blizzard would use it. If you actually knew why people don't want flying in the game would know why simply not flying doesn't work. Players will not intentionally gimp themselves to play the game.
    Not dictating how they set up their game. Simply stating flying works perfectly the way it is. Others dictating that flying should be removed because they don't like it, is the problem.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I am not even sure what to say to that...

    Travelling is an essential part of an open-world game. We already have portal everywhere, and this version of flying is as fast as the game can realistically get without allowing instant teleports to anywhere.
    Instant teleports! I like the suggestion.

    Get us more in-line with other successful MMORPG's like FF XIV

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