Making flying better

[crusadernero]

Just because players want it doesn't mean it is good.

People want to not be hindered in any way, that is a perfectly human reaction, but this is a video game, it has to be restrictive for there to be a point.
I am sure many players would love a vendor that gives them all the best gear so they can go into Mythic unhindered, or be able to skip levelling to get to the endgame unhindered.

I have always found that players have more fun when they have a restrictive system with lots of leeway, not by breaking the game.
I am sure there are those who would disagree, but I had far more fun playing Survival Minecraft and building a cool house then I ever had just building a similar house in creative. The endpoint is still the same, but by removing the challenge the satisfaction is lost.

I agree on that - the journey towards optimal gear or completing a game is the point of a game. If every game and activity was very easy, it wouldnt be fun. Especially a MMORPG should be about the journey, not just get best gear and thats it.

I remember the days of getting loot in raids and be really excited. Im not anymore, at all. Cant recall the last time I was happy for a item drop. Most items are forgotten about and I really couldnt care less these days. If the gameplay and game itself is good, i'll play.

Problem with wow right now is that all valuable content is inside dungeons/raids/BGs/arena. The world itself matters not. Flying is just a miniscule issue here really. they need to fix it. We want flying(as it is) cause alot of the outdoor content there is, is rather boring and lack engaging gameplay features. People collect treasures, farm herb/mining, rares(mounts), Tmog runs to other raids/dungeons etc. All these things are quite mundane and boring, so flying is most welcomed.

If the world content itself was awesome, people would be less upset about no flying.

[Sondrelk]

Each flying mount, depending on its quality and type, will have a certain amount of stamina/fuel as an intrinsic attribute, as well as, each one may even have a different recovery rate.

When using any flying mount, a sort of fatigue bar that represents its stamina level, will empty depending on the time of use and the height at which it is.

The stamina will gradually recover by allowing the mount to rest (after not using it for a while). Mounts recover faster if we are in a rest zone and it is even possible that some areas affect the rate of recovery of stamina, which would imply that a zone may be more or less "friendly" for flying mounts.

When a mount depletes its stamina, it drastically loses its speed and height, becoming deactivated once on the ground. If this happens, we won't be able to call the mount again until it has fully regenerated its stamina. For practical purposes it would be like a kind of "cooldown time".

Thus, if we use a mount very frequently, we will soon exhaust all its stamina, forcing us to wait for it to recover completely, BUT if we only use our flying mount from time to time and with measure, we will not deplete its stamina completely, avoiding having to wait to call it again. In short: we have a certain flight time and we are those who decide how to manage it.

To avoid abuse in combat and PVP, the mounts cannot be called if we are in combat, but when the combat ends, an additional cooling time will begin, after which it will be allowed to call them and make use of them.

In addition, if a flying mount takes damage in mid-flight, it will lose some of its stamina, and may even be forced to descend.

I like this idea, it allows flying to be a true option while preventing the constant mounting and dismounting that is the true black stain of flying in WoW.

Would also allow more transparency, as well as making it easier to make zones available for questing again. Northerns could have a Blizzard that prevents flying by draining stamina quickly, or anti aircraft cannons that shoot you down.
Conversely easier zones could have a very generous stamina regen, allowing flying between each quest done.

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I agree on that - the journey towards optimal gear or completing a game is the point of a game. If every game and activity was very easy, it wouldnt be fun. Especially a MMORPG should be about the journey, not just get best gear and thats it.

I remember the days of getting loot in raids and be really excited. Im not anymore, at all. Cant recall the last time I was happy for a item drop. Most items are forgotten about and I really couldnt care less these days. If the gameplay and game itself is good, i'll play.

Problem with wow right now is that all valuable content is inside dungeons/raids/BGs/arena. The world itself matters not. Flying is just a miniscule issue here really. they need to fix it. We want flying(as it is) cause alot of the outdoor content there is, is rather boring and lack engaging gameplay features. People collect treasures, farm herb/mining, rares(mounts), Tmog runs to other raids/dungeons etc. All these things are quite mundane and boring, so flying is most welcomed.

If the world content itself was awesome, people would be less upset about no flying.

The problem then is that you don't fix the open world by adding flying. The game needs a fertile ground for experimentation, and that is what the removal of flying has allowed so far, now I think however that flying itself should be changed so that it can be reintroduced as an actual integral part of the game and not just an "IWIN" button for open world content.

[oldgeezer]

Simple: FOMO.

Fear of missing out is powerful enough to prevent anyone from doing "what they like" in order to keep up. It does not help that the game actively encourages this by adding catch up systems EVERY PATCH so no one is ever "behind the curve." You're always "capable" of getting to the endgame - So you NEED to get to the endgame, ASAP, or you miss the endgame entirely as the catch up system introduced with the next patch will completely invalidate any progression in that endgame.

No point in doing the slow way when the fast way is ready, available, and will get you to the rest of the game more efficiently. This, coupled with FOMO, ensures NO ONE ever takes the slow route, however enjoyable they end up making it.

Sure, but since this is flying it's open world content we're talking about. Are competitive raiders doing WQs? Do they even care?

As for 'no one' taking the slow route, I disagree with that. Plenty of people do (i.e. the casuals & socials out there). I still have players in my guild levelling their first SL character up to 60. Not everyone is interested in endgame content, and not everyone is interesting in playing competitively. 'FOMO' is not an issue for many.

Now, getting back in topic, enabling flying in SL would certainly encourage me to spend more time in-game, and more time levelling alts. Do I (slowly) ride across the map for more WQs or do I log out for the evening?

[Kumorii]

Increase ground mount speed and lower flying to be slower than ground I think is a good mix. Though players would be up in arms.
I would like it though since I have to actually think for a split second which method would be fastest.

Other option would be for me to make flying more "real"... Have some form of intertia. Not much is needed to make it feel better imo.

[ProfesserLupin]

Try and imagine this argument if there was a gear vendor in the game, or a way to instakill bosses. Imagine if every PvP season you got a choice of getting the gladiator mount instantly or having to earn it.

The idea that players should simply avoid a game mechanic added for the specific purpose of letting other players not play the game is absurd. We already have that option, and it is called not playing the game.

None of those things even relate remotely as third cousins twice removed in regards to describing flying.
Try again.

[crusadernero]

I like this idea, it allows flying to be a true option while preventing the constant mounting and dismounting that is the true black stain of flying in WoW.

Would also allow more transparency, as well as making it easier to make zones available for questing again. Northerns could have a Blizzard that prevents flying by draining stamina quickly, or anti aircraft cannons that shoot you down.
Conversely easier zones could have a very generous stamina regen, allowing flying between each quest done.

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The problem then is that you don't fix the open world by adding flying. The game needs a fertile ground for experimentation, and that is what the removal of flying has allowed so far, now I think however that flying itself should be changed so that it can be reintroduced as an actual integral part of the game and not just an "IWIN" button for open world content.

Well, I think alot of people would actually start doing WQs etc again if they had flying. I certainly would. The zone design is utter garbage for many reasons and makes you want flying ASAP.

Now personally I dont mind either way. I can play the game fine without flying, but the gameplay and content gotta be engaging. A more complex system for flying wouldnt really help on that, it would just add another layer of stuff to keep track of. It wouldnt really fix the world content either.

I think we agree on that the world content needs more focus and attention, beyond these WQs. With or without flying or a flying manual system, the current world is still dead.

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Sure, but since this is flying it's open world content we're talking about. Are competitive raiders doing WQs? Do they even care?

As for 'no one' taking the slow route, I disagree with that. Plenty of people do (i.e. the casuals & socials out there). I still have players in my guild levelling their first SL character up to 60. Not everyone is interested in endgame content, and not everyone is interesting in playing competitively. 'FOMO' is not an issue for many.

Now, getting back in topic, enabling flying in SL would certainly encourage me to spend more time in-game, and more time levelling alts. Do I (slowly) ride across the map for more WQs or do I log out for the evening?

yeah it would be nice if Blizzard actually focused more on the world itself. Personally, after playing the game on and off since vanilla, no dungeon/raid really surprises me. The classes I play feel more or less the same also. Theres nothing new there except the dungeon/raid.

I would love if they actually put some time and effort into something new and cool. Doesnt need to be easy, but something else. I enjoyed order hall in Legion. I also enjoyed the covenant campaign, but that was over fairly quickly.

[Bee76]

The most boring part of wow is the travel. It actually stops me from wanting to play the game. I don't want to sit down to play the game only to have to wait 5 mins to get my character to where he needs to be and then to spend another 5 mins riding around a mountain. Travelling is not content. It is a barrier.

So much this!
Flying is fine for me. Whoever dislike flying is not forced to do it. Stay on ground and have phun. I prefer flying and have my fun. But i agree to another reply in this thread, if warmode should be more than that ridicolous gankfiesta atm, there should be no flying in warmode.

[Eazy]

Flying is fine as it is.

Stop forcing me to spend more time in this game when don't really need to.

[Garymorilix]

This is actually a good idea.

There are two problems with it.

1) The playerbase was raised with the current iteration of flying. It'd be like teaching a kid something and then suddenly telling them that it's wrong 10 years later.
Even if the idea is good to preserve flying and also have meaningful ground content, the backlash wouldn't let this happen I'm afraid, even if we could have this from day 1.

2) The core advantage of unlimited flying is doing legacy-content. I don't just mean Cata content.
Take BfA for example: after 8.2 there was literally no reason for anyone to do world content in Zuldazar or Kul'tiras. For those people that still needed X unlocks it is a good way to catch up to players who already did those things when they were the current content.
This new flying would lengthen the period at which returning (or slower) players unlock stuff even tho there is no current content in the content they're doing.

So if this was a feature I would limit it to the most current tier content only. Everything else is fair game.

[LordVargK]

Nazjatar is still a significant iteration on older zones.
You agree Nazjatar is a more unique zone, though annoying to navigate. Flying might seem like a fix, but it only really removes the navigation aspect.
I would much rather Blizzard continues to iterate, making navigating the landscape even more fun and interesting without having to rely on flying to remove the entire aspect.

Experimenting does inherently leave room to fail, and fail miserably, but it is still preferable to not experimenting at all and having the game stagnate.
The game has had large improvements. Even the mission table had had many iterations until we have the somewhat engaging one we have now, and I think the game is better for it.

The thing is, having to navigate is fun while leveling. And then just a time waste. The only thing you do in the open world once you have your loremaster is WQs. And those are a stupid grind. Some are cool, like the sledge races or the wheelbarrow race. But most WQs (especially those in SL) are boring as fuck and honestly nothing I want to do. Having to add 5 minutes to each of those boring things because of travel time makes me ignore them entirely. Navigation is fine, if there's something worth navigating to. But there isn't. As long as the open world is just a place to waste your time, that could be spend in dungeons, PvP or raids, navigation is just a hurdle.

I mean, you could also rework flying so it requires skill.

The most apt comparision for the kind of flying we have in WoW is creative mode flight from Minecraft. It can be done from anywhere at no cost, allows full 3D movement and has no real way to screw it up.
Compare this however ot the other means of flight in Survival, the Elytra, which is difficult to get, requires a level of skill to use accurately and drains resources when used.

The kind of flying we have in WoW is really not the kind any game should give to its players to use as a gameplay element.

Why though? I mean, yes you could. I would be fine with that if that means I get to fly once I hit my Loremaster in patch X.0.1. But that would only force you to not go afk while flying without having a benefit. Which I guess makes it equal to ground travel in a way. But I would rather see a buff to ground travel (which always requires your attention) to make it slightly better than flying (which does not require your attention), because then you would have the choice of reaching your target fast but you have to do something for it or slow, but you can relax.
But again, this does not fix the underlying issue, that traveling in WoW is essentially time wasted (for non gathering classes), because nothing exiting happens while traveling. The maw is actually a better ground mount zone than any else, because on your way to the quest you can find and fight tons of rare mobs for rewards. You get more out riding, than if you were to port to your destination. Still flying would make that faster too, but that's because it's just too OP compared to ground mounts.

[FRENofApustaja]

You dont have to use flying. Go use your ground mount or enable walk and if you enjoy the bleached Shadowlands Zones so much, walk around to get your immersion kick.
I hate the new zones, the zones lore is mediocree at best and flying cant come fast enough.

The game is played for its game mechanics by the majority of people. If you want to feel true immersion, I would suggest you to walk around in a single player RPG ala Witcher and enjoy the graphics. Not a MMO where everything is built around LFG anyways.

Imagine being max level and have to do some daily chores, where you need to do some shitty daily worldquest to get conduit xyz, while you get dazed of the mount 10 times by some shitty 1 shot mobs, whose only purpose is standing around for wasting your time. So much fun, that I cant be fast enough in the Arena Queue again.

[Yarathir]

Why does everyone think people are interested in their frankly crappy ideas for "improving" flying.

It's simple. There's a group that wants no flying at all, and a group that wants unlimited flying. There is no mechanic to fix to make both groups happy and pathfinder is there as a middle ground.

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Or how about we unlock it we hit max level/ get loremaster of the new zones. That would work way better.

This tbh. Just have a pathfinder like we have now for exploring the zones, doing the main questlines and getting to revered with the associated reps and offer flying in 9.0 zones for that.

Then when new content is unlocked where Blizzard wants to eventually allow flying, let there be a part 2 pathfinder for that. Rather than like BfA where we were waiting until 8.2 to get pathfinder for both 8.0 and 8.2 content at once.

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Stop being concerned about how someone else plays. Flying has literally zero impact on you.

"nooOo, but if people aren't playing like how i want them to, mmos are dead!!"

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Indeed, unless you have bonuses given to you by the game that allows you to engage in the content a different way.

Flying is available to everyone and makes all those unique buffs and mount equipment moot.

So you're mad that you don't get to be special in ignoring the world around you as you zoom past?

[Littleraven]

Flying as a concept is fine, personally I think making them the fastest mounts in the game is the issue.

This. And it's not like its even by a small amount. It is pretty much triple if you have the full upgrade. Flying in itself is already faster than being on the ground because you can just fly over obstacles. Making it as fast as it is is just icing on the cake.

While I don't think they will ever go back to how it was in early BC I did kinda like the idea of flying being SLOWER than ground mounts when you first got it because the trade off was you could literally just fucking fly over everything lol.

Of course epic flying or whatever it was called back then gave us what we are used to today but I do feel like they could go back to some kind of trade off like that and I don't think people would complain all that much. That said people seem to complain about everything these days.

I don't think flying is 100% broken and wouldn't care if it stayed the same as it is but I do think it would at least be interesting to not always have it be the default travel option once it is unlocked.

[DechCJC]

and make it disabled for War Mode. That's it.

That would completely kill War Mode.

[Yarathir]

Do terrain puzzles count as gameplay? Technically, perhaps, but fun gameplay? No. Likewise groups of mobs. Far better to just fly over/around them if you choose. If you want to run along the ground and find the missing path up a mountain, go for it. This is why I generally avoid world content in Revendreth. The zone is just too tedious to navigate on the ground.

It's even worse the hundredth time around. And OP here is advocating for having to do that shit hundreds of more times before the expansion ends.

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Yes.

You may not like it, but others do. Your opinion is not indicative of the whole.

Well, feel free to do them then.

We'll make sure to avoid them on our flying mounts.

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This is quite similar to the argument when a player says "I dont like flying and think its bad for the game" and everyone piling on saying "so just use your ground mounts, nothing stopping you!

I just think its quite a soft argument.

Too bad for you. If I like flying and think it's good for the game, there's not much consideration given to me by the flight removing crew.

If you don't like flying and think it's bad for the game, don't use it. Deal with that. It offers you infinitely more option than pro-flyers would have if flying was removed or skewered like the OP suggests. You already got your compromise with pathfinder. You don't get to keep compromising until you eventually get 100% what you want.

[Ielenia]

Have windy "streams" in the air that can boost your speed along specific paths

Wouldn't those also slow you down, or even push you back, if you were going the opposite way?

(and even let you AFK along them).

AFK'ing while flying usually results in death. :/

[Zyrinx]

Solution without a problem.

Allow flying 1 patch later. Which seems to be the model here. All good.

The real problem is the zones aren't connected, that's dumb. It was bad in Cataclysm and this is much much worse.

[CalamityHeart]

Personally, I think the way that flying is right now is almost perfect. The only thing I would change is that I wouldn't wait until the next patch in order to enable flying. In my preferred WoW, the requirements for Pathfinder would be something that could only realistically be filled to completion once the main story campaign was done. Like, if Renown 40 + the Explorer/Sojourner achievements and maybe something else, were all it took to unlock flying, that'd be excellent.

I don't understand why some people have it in their heads that in order to make flying "better", you need to make it more annoying to actually do. It just comes across as people who dislike flying proposing ways to punish people who like flying, for no other reason than "fuck those people". They clearly don't actually care about the world itself or having an immersive experience, because if they did, they would just go ahead and have that experience. They can do that, they have the option. But the root of the flying issue -- every single time -- is trying to find some way to ruin someone else's experience because the existence of that "someone else" somehow ruins their own experience. Having the option doesn't matter so long as someone who has a different option exists. That's what it boils down to every time someone responds to "You don't have to fly if you don't want to." with some variant of "Yes, but..." before flying off into some tangent or another about WoW becoming a lobby-based, skill-less MOBA.

Flying doesn't need to be fucked with or made more or less complicated than it is right now. It should be given its significance by when and how it's rewarded to players.

[Silara]

people in the #noflying camp = WoW's cancel culture.

We don't like flying.. therefore, either think like us, or be canceled. Of course we could use our ground mounts ONLY to play, but FOMO would FORCE us to use flying mounts even though we hate them and the people that want to use them. Therefore, ALL flying must be canceled for us to enjoy the game again.

[tacoloco]

Because Vashj'ir is a fully vertical zone—which a lot of players disliked—and you said the game ought to do more vertical design. It's fine to disagree but I don't think my original point was off the mark. Underwater doesn't matter. There's no real difference in mechanics between swimming around underwater and swimming around in the atmosphere.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I am absolutely terrible moving in three dimensions. Malygos was really hard for me for this reason as was Vashj'ir (but to a lesser degree).