Making flying better

[Yarathir]

Yet flying essentially removes a part of hte game. It removes the part of the game that is actually interracting with the world in a meaningful way. There is no challenge or obstacle that flying allows you to approach in a different way, it simply removes that part of the game.

Similarly an IWIN button in a raid wouldnt let you fight the boss in a new or interesting way, it would simply remove that part of the game for your convenience.

Again, why should flying be allowed to be this good in a game that actually is supposed to have an open world aspect. The game is called WORLD of Wacraft, each new expansion has as a selling point open world content. With flying we essentially make the open world aspect a lobby to ignore the game from.


Besides, as I have mentioned many times and which noone has given me an answer to: Why do pro-flying people even need flying if they don't want to do the open world content anyways? We already have summoning stones to let you skip playing that part of the game, for those that do want better open world content flying is a timer counting down to when the open world content of a given expansion stops mattering, and instead becoming another meaningless mess of mobs to mindlessly fly past.

See, there'll never be an agreement because you consider your point of view to be fact.

Meanwhile, a lot of us players don't think it's enchanting or immersive to run over the same ground textures and past the same trees that we already ran past for the 1000th time, and at that point, being able to fly over it and see it from another view becomes more immersive than 12 more months of running in the same area.

[rrayy]

Their problem, not mine.

Well, Pathfinder solves the problem. At least they compromised. You still demand flying immediately which means you haven't.

[Yarathir]

That poster is stuck on the premise that unrestricted flying is, in their terms, "instawin". People don't get quests done simply because they fly over some stuff. They get quests done by doing what the quest requires.

Yeah, it's just blatantly a false comparison. But some people are so hardstuck in their "I know best and this feature isn't simply a matter of different tastes/opinions, but a case of me being right and the others wanting to destroy what makes WoW a game."

[tacoloco]

Similarly an IWIN button in a raid wouldnt let you fight the boss in a new or interesting way, it would simply remove that part of the game for your convenience.

Just stop. Flying is nothing like that.

[Yarathir]

Well, Pathfinder solves the problem. At least they compromised. You still demand flying immediately which means you haven't.

????????

My dude, what figment of your imagination are you chatting with? Again, this thread is overtly made to suggest gimping flying, rather than to suggest pathfinder should be done away with and flying given away instantly.

[Sondrelk]

The difference is that the big red button is actually bad game design. This is a case where you simply don't like flying and others do and you are insisting on pushing your view as the only viable view.

1/10 try again

Flying is equivalent ot the big red button simply because it similarly doesnt add or enhance content, it removes it.

Like ot or not this is WORLD of warcraft, the open world content is part of the game and players should be expected to work around it somehow. In this scenarion a movement option as powerful as flying doesnt add to that experience, it simply allows you to skip past it.
Honestly, is this a convenience you expect in all games? Do you play Portal with noclip on? Do you play Super Mario with infinite power stars?

We don't want flying gone, we want flying to be an integrated part of the game that doesnt invalidate it by its mere existence.

[Yarathir]

Flying is equivalent ot the big red button simply because it similarly doesnt add or enhance content, it removes it.

It isn't.


That's all I need to say. It just isn't. It isn't even remotely comparable and no one should humor it.

[arkanon]

No argument from me on that. I was only describing my difficulty with that kind of stuff.

Yeah i have the achive for Vash on multiple characters, and once you got into the swing of things it was a fucking amazing zone - BUT, there would still be multiple frustrating moments of mobs moving slightly out of sight due to the "3d" environment - and that ALWAYS pissed me off.

[rrayy]

Not dictating how they set up their game. Simply stating flying works perfectly the way it is. Others dictating that flying should be removed because they don't like it, is the problem.

Well, you dictating flying should be in the game immediately because you like it is jsut as much of a problem. How is it that it is OK for you to dictate that flying should be in the game immediately, but not OK to dictate it's removal? Others don't think it is perfectly fine as is. They have as much right to dictate as you do.

[Yarathir]

Well, you dictating flying should be in the game immediately because you like it is jsut as much of a problem. How is it that it is OK for you to dictate that flying should be in the game immediately, but not OK to dictate it's removal? Others don't think it is perfectly fine as is. They have as much right to dictate as you do.

Is this your shtick? Are you just going to assume that everyone who is against the OP is also simultaneously pushing for instant and free immediate access to flying?

[arkanon]

Flying is equivalent ot the big red button simply because it similarly doesnt add or enhance content, it removes it.

.

Yeah, it "removes content" the same way these things do:

Stealth
Flight Points
Portals
Hearthstones
Heroic leap
Transcendance
Warlock portals
Summoning stones
etc etc

Your argument doesnt hold up at all.

[rrayy]

????????

My dude, what figment of your imagination are you chatting with? Again, this thread is overtly made to suggest gimping flying, rather than to suggest pathfinder should be done away with and flying given away instantly.

That isn't a compromise because you gave nothing to the no flyers. All you did was slow flying down. Still waiting for an actual compromise because you still demand flying immediately.

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Is this your shtick? Are you just going to assume that everyone who is against the OP is also simultaneously pushing for instant and free immediate access to flying?

You have several people in this thread sating that flying should be free and immediate. Why are you acting like they don't exist?

[Yarathir]

That isn't a compromise because you gave nothing to the no flyers. All you did was slow flying down. Still waiting for an actual compromise because you still demand flying immediately.

Pathfinder is the compromise.

No-flyers get a bunch of time on the ground (plus a lot of new stuff added like Korthia, Argus, etc. tends to be nofly permanently)

Pro-flyers get flying after spending a while on the ground exploring the zones, doing the main storylines and grinding the zones' associated reps to revered.

[Sondrelk]

See, there'll never be an agreement because you consider your point of view to be fact.

Meanwhile, a lot of us players don't think it's enchanting or immersive to run over the same ground textures and past the same trees that we already ran past for the 1000th time, and at that point, being able to fly over it and see it from another view becomes more immersive than 12 more months of running in the same area.

Yes, I do consider it fact, and I have evidence to back it up.

1. Flying is faster, more convenient and generally better than all other movement options. Outside specific niche cases like teleports it makes all other forms of medium ot long distance moving redundant. This is not opinion, this is cold hard fact. It is provably a faster movement speed buff, it is designed in a way that lets you avoid obstacles, and the movement mechanics of it makes precision movement possible.

2. The game has had more changes to open world content in the years since flying was removed compared to the years it had flying. The game didnt iterate on itself to any significant degree during WotLK, Cata or MoP to add new movement options or new means of traversing the landscape. Feel free to correct me on this one if you can find meaningful improvements to the open world during those expansions.

3. The game developers agree it is a bad mechanic as the current means of circumventing it is wholesale removal from relevant parts of the game. New zones don't have flying, we know the developers do this to prevent it from undermining the game. Each time Blizzard adds a new piece of content they attempt to remove flying from it, they did this as far back as TBC when flying was introduced, the only expansion that had new zones or areas that allowed flying was WotLK and that one only had that single area of Hrothgar's landing.


Feel free to find some of your own facts to back up how flying has improved the game.

[FuxieDK]

Pathfinder is the compromise.

No-flyers get a bunch of time on the ground (plus a lot of new stuff added like Korthia, Argus, etc. tends to be nofly permanently)

Pro-flyers get flying after spending a while on the ground exploring the zones, doing the main storylines and grinding the zones' associated reps to revered.

It's not a compromise, it's a gun to the head.

Anti-flyers manages to force everyone to the ground for half the time, while pro-flyers gain absolutely NOTHING..

[Sondrelk]

Yeah, it "removes content" the same way these things do:

Stealth
Flight Points
Portals
Hearthstones
Heroic leap
Transcendance
Warlock portals
Summoning stones
etc etc

Your argument doesnt hold up at all.

Fun thing you mentioned all of those. Because you know it just so happens to be exactly what flying invalidates.

All of those mechanics, conveniently passed on in favor of flying, a mechanic given to everyone with minimal to no effort and requiring no skill to use.

[Yarathir]

It's not a compromise, it's a gun to the head.

Anti-flyers manages to force everyone to the ground for half the time, while pro-flyers gain absolutely NOTHING..

My point is, it's already some form of middleground for both camps between removing flying and having it freely and instantly. I'm not arguing its merits.

My point is more that you can't take the initial compromise, and then keep enforcing compromises until you have entirely what you want. In these terms, you can't push another compromise leaning to the anti-flying side after already getting pathfinder all the way until you've compromised your way to getting entirely what you want, which is flying either gimped beyond being useful or removed outright.

- - - Updated - - -

Fun thing you mentioned all of those. Because you know it just so happens to be exactly what flying invalidates.

All of those mechanics, conveniently passed on in favor of flying, a mechanic given to everyone with minimal to no effort and requiring no skill to use.

Good that flying invalidates those, then. Because they're cheating and remove the threat and atmosphere from the world and that's bad.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, I do consider it fact, and I have evidence to back it up.

1. Flying is faster, more convenient and generally better than all other movement options. Outside specific niche cases like teleports it makes all other forms of medium ot long distance moving redundant. This is not opinion, this is cold hard fact. It is provably a faster movement speed buff, it is designed in a way that lets you avoid obstacles, and the movement mechanics of it makes precision movement possible.

2. The game has had more changes to open world content in the years since flying was removed compared to the years it had flying. The game didnt iterate on itself to any significant degree during WotLK, Cata or MoP to add new movement options or new means of traversing the landscape. Feel free to correct me on this one if you can find meaningful improvements to the open world during those expansions.

3. The game developers agree it is a bad mechanic as the current means of circumventing it is wholesale removal from relevant parts of the game. New zones don't have flying, we know the developers do this to prevent it from undermining the game. Each time Blizzard adds a new piece of content they attempt to remove flying from it, they did this as far back as TBC when flying was introduced, the only expansion that had new zones or areas that allowed flying was WotLK and that one only had that single area of Hrothgar's landing.


Feel free to find some of your own facts to back up how flying has improved the game.

"I have evidence."

Proceeds to throw out situations and mixes his subjective conclusions into them.

[Sondrelk]

Pathfinder is the compromise.

No-flyers get a bunch of time on the ground (plus a lot of new stuff added like Korthia, Argus, etc. tends to be nofly permanently)

Pro-flyers get flying after spending a while on the ground exploring the zones, doing the main storylines and grinding the zones' associated reps to revered.

And why is it wrong to want to rethink the compromise so it actually works better?

I don't want flying gone, I want flying changed. I want flying to be designed in such a way that it can actually be a part of the base experience without all the problem that currently plague it.

I don't care how flying is imrpoved honestly, I am willing to accept any improvement no matter how small simply because there is no scenario I can imagine where flying becomes even more of a dominant movement option.

Also, this would actually be a compromise comparable to what we have. Not making flying weaker but still having pathfinder, having flying immediately, but weaker.

[Yarathir]

And why is it wrong to want to rethink the compromise so it actually works better?

I don't want flying gone, I want flying changed. I want flying to be designed in such a way that it can actually be a part of the base experience without all the problem that currently plague it.

I don't care how flying is imrpoved honestly, I am willing to accept any improvement no matter how small simply because there is no scenario I can imagine where flying becomes even more of a dominant movement option.

Also, this would actually be a compromise comparable to what we have. Not making flying weaker but still having pathfinder, having flying immediately, but weaker.

Yes. You want to gimp flying so much to the point that it's no longer worth using and just becomes a glorified flight path. That's like 5 degrees away from removal and plenty of people don't consider that to be "working better."

[Sondrelk]

My point is, it's already some form of middleground for both camps between removing flying and having it freely and instantly. I'm not arguing its merits.

My point is more that you can't take the initial compromise, and then keep enforcing compromises until you have entirely what you want. In these terms, you can't push another compromise leaning to the anti-flying side after already getting pathfinder all the way until you've compromised your way to getting entirely what you want, which is flying either gimped beyond being useful or removed outright.

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Good that flying invalidates those, then. Because they're cheating and remove the threat and atmosphere from the world and that's bad.

- - - Updated - - -


"I have evidence."

Proceeds to throw out situations and mixes his subjective conclusions into them.

I want a better midleground, if this makes me selfish then I will accept that.

You really don't even attempt to understand what the problem with flying is do you?
So let me try to summarize it as succinctly as possible so you can understand it:

Flying is a dominant movement option. In a game that is at least partially based around open world content it invalidates all competition for movement. Warriors Heroic Leap is passed over for flying. Venthyr teleport is passed over for flying. Warlock gateway is passed over for flying. Twigin treats is passed over for flying.
All alternative means of transportation is weaker than flying, and this stifles creativity by removing the incentive ot be imaginative. Why should Blizzard feel like creating Zerekriss, the floating Necropolis that allows divebombing if flying is just better. Why should Blizzard give players areas perfect for using goblin gliders when flying is better?



Alright then, please elaborate on what is subjective.