Now that its been proven min maxes are the majority will content change?

[Echocho]

I mean yes... they cut it off after 28 days of activity but are we really stretching this hard just to not admit the majority of players simply play for power gain and trying to tie restrictive narrative choices to that is a terrible idea?

Just make those choices cosmetic actually cater to the majority of players. The min maxers.

Until they provide data four months back in time so we can see what people who don't do high end content picked there is no way to know.

They need to provide data on accounts, not characters. They also need to show us what all the casuals who quit picked, so roughly four months back. Before they do that their data is useless.

[Electric Lighter]

Until they provide data four months back in time so we can see what people who don't do high end content picked there is no way to know.

They need to provide data on accounts, not characters. They also need to show us what all the casuals who quit picked, so roughly four months back. Before they do that their data is useless.

Why?

If they quit what possible point in there is to catering to them? I can kind of get accounts but there is a massive amount of people playing a ton of characters if that is honestly gonna swing these kind of numbers.

[Echocho]

Why?

If they quit what possible point in there is to catering to them? I can kind of get accounts but there is a massive amount of people playing a ton of characters if that is honestly gonna swing these kind of numbers.

Because without the casual playerbase the game dies. Blizzard catered to the elitists this expansion and it has been driving the casual playerbase away from the game because there's no longer a character progression gameplay loop for them, it has all been stripped away and locked away behind premade group content.
I would assume that Blizzard wants those players back considering how much sub revenue they're losing out on.
The hardcore playerbase can't carry this game by themselves.

[Doffen]

Except for DK Necrolord, I think none of the classes fit their best covenant thematically. NF Fire Mage? Resto shaman necrolord? Holy Pally Venthyr? Afli Lock Ascended?

And what does fire mage fit? None. If you are Night Elf Fire Mage, it suddenly fits with Night Fae. What does resto shaman fit? Don't say Night Fae, Shamans are not druids. Shamans uses the elements offensively. Necrolords fit them more than any other Covenant. Because Necrolords are all about War, not only death. Because that would be any Shadowlands Covenant don't you think? Holy paladin is mostly Kyrian, by a large margin according to the stats. Not sure why you listed that one?

You are listing many specs that doesn't fit many of the thematics perfectly. Affli sure, Necrolords. But you said DK. You know Blood is mostly Venthyr right? Which fits them very well themeattically. Frost, my main this expansion, have had Necrolord as an overall decent one, but not the best in any PvE content until they are now suggesting it for 9.0.5. So why did so many Frost choose Necrolord? Wasn't because of min maxing.

Both dps Death Knight, all hunter specs, all druid specs, all monk specs, all paladin specs, shadow and disc priest(holy got venthyr as close second, Venthyr actually fits priests very well, atonement and all that jazz), ele and resto, Havoc are all their best fit.

So my OFTEN argument stands strong.

[Electric Lighter]

Because without the casual playerbase the game dies. Blizzard catered to the elitists this expansion and it has been driving the casual playerbase away from the game because there's no longer a character progression gameplay loop for them, it has all been stripped away and locked away behind premade group content.
I would assume that Blizzard wants those players back considering how much sub revenue they're losing out on.
The hardcore playerbase can't carry this game by themselves.

The logic of your statement doesn't really pan out... Why do casual players care about these systems? We can see clearly they are a proposed minority. I'm sorry but I suspect that a mmo is going to be based around group play.

[Swnem]

What's real and what isn't really doesn't really matter. It's all about the perception of the community at large. Back when Blizzard did the cosmetic helmets like 5 people total were kicked out of groups for selling them, but a lot of people said they were afraid to buy them because of reading about that. So if the community hypes up how bad the covenant system is going to be and the need to pick the right one for several months leading up to SL, guess what even the casuals are going to do? Couple that with the fact that even the most basic "WTF am I doing?" guides for WoW over at Wowhead/Icy-Veins/etc have sections telling people what their best covenant is, yeah.

You're generally right but misguided.

No, i am not misguided. There are clearly better Covenants. The 1% argument is a myth. Of course, it depends on the encounter or type of content you are doing. But, it's undeniable. They synergise with trinket choices, class mechanics and legendaries. Some are clearly better. There is no argument. No one is being misguided. Even if it wasn't on online guides, it would still be noticeable on logs, which they are.

[sam86]

'proven' where exactly? The only 'proof' i saw is the vast majority of wow players are extremely casual who don't even do mythic dungeons or any pugging, solo players to the core, as stated in last blizzcon
my source is same video they were talking about faction balance and how alliance/horde ratio is almost 50%, which video was that exactly in all blizzcon no idea
What is ur source that most wow players min-max? I literally saw and heard them say exact opposite

[Kithelle]

And what does fire mage fit? None. If you are Night Elf Fire Mage, it suddenly fits with Night Fae. What does resto shaman fit? Don't say Night Fae, Shamans are not druids. Shamans uses the elements offensively. Necrolords fit them more than any other Covenant. Because Necrolords are all about War, not only death. Because that would be any Shadowlands Covenant don't you think? Holy paladin is mostly Kyrian, by a large margin according to the stats. Not sure why you listed that one?

You are listing many specs that doesn't fit many of the thematics perfectly. Affli sure, Necrolords. But you said DK. You know Blood is mostly Venthyr right? Which fits them very well themeattically. Frost, my main this expansion, have had Necrolord as an overall decent one, but not the best in any PvE content until they are now suggesting it for 9.0.5. So why did so many Frost choose Necrolord? Wasn't because of min maxing.

Both dps Death Knight, all hunter specs, all druid specs, all monk specs, all paladin specs, shadow and disc priest(holy got venthyr as close second, Venthyr actually fits priests very well, atonement and all that jazz), ele and resto, Havoc are all their best fit.

So my OFTEN argument stands strong.

I'd say Mage are heroic magic users, Kyrian is the closest

Night Fae are the closest for Shaman because Shaman are tied to nature and the elements, who sometimes use spirits.

Venthyr can be good with Holy Pallies

Shadowpriest's best is Night Fae so wrong, Ret is all over the place and the only really bad one is Necro, Elemental and Resto's best is Necrolord, how is that fitting?, Havoc's best is Night Fae, doesn't make much sense

Affliction Warlock's best is Night Fae, Night Fae is best for 2 out of 3 Rogue specs. Arcane's best is Necro and Frost is Venthyr. Arms is Venthyr...

Face it and stop lying...there are a lot of specs that don't fit thematically with their best covenants

[Doffen]

Face it and stop lying...there are a lot of specs that don't fit thematically with their best covenants

So you can't fucking read then.

[Kithelle]

So you can't fucking read then.

I can read, I read you saying saying the wrong covenants were best for certain specs and that you claimed most specs best covenants were thematically the best, which is wrong...many don't fit thematically. But I love how you didn't quote that part

[Electric Lighter]

'proven' where exactly? The only 'proof' i saw is the vast majority of wow players are extremely casual who don't even do mythic dungeons or any pugging, solo players to the core, as stated in last blizzcon
my source is same video they were talking about faction balance and how alliance/horde ratio is almost 50%, which video was that exactly in all blizzcon no idea
What is ur source that most wow players min-max? I literally saw and heard them say exact opposite

It shows that even if they are casual they move so strongly towards min maxing that it is utterly folly to design around the idea they do differently. The faction imbalance is a different topic one brought about by blizzard mishandling racials so badly and being addicted to that sweet faction/server change money that they allowed the lion share of the end game population to cement itself on one faction.

There are limits to min maxing. For example no matter how hard they try people hate mechagnomes.

[Doffen]

I can read, I read you saying saying the wrong covenants were best for certain specs and that you claimed most specs best covenants were thematically the best, which is wrong...many don't fit thematically. But I love how you didn't quote that part

And I love how you try to score a point when your entire post was based on something I didn't say And I even listed all those in the first post you quoted. I mean how far out there can you be? Why would I quote something I already wrote myself that many specs do not fit the covenants we got? Not to mention some of the the ones you list up are wrong when it comes to most chosen, which you know, is what we are talking about. It's quite embarrasing to read what you try to come up with.

First you misunderstand my post. Then you try to score a point about something that doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote. Havocs best is Night Fae you write? Okay, but I am talking about what players are actually CHOOSING, and most Havoc DH's chose Venthyr. Shadow Priests best is Night Fae you write? Okay, but it's the least chosen one, and Venthyr is most chosen by a large margin compared to Night Fae. Ret is all over the place you write? Okay, but, yeah, Kyrian is just chosen by twice as many players as the rest of the 3 combined, and even then its not close. Do you see what I am talking about here? I don't expect you to because you missed the very thread of the discussion completely. I mean hello?

So the only one who ignored something here is the one who didn't try to argue against all those I listed that DO fit their Covenant themeatically. So no, you appearently can't read. You even prove that in this post of here. Also, you can try to look up on the word "often". And check out the 18 specs that their best Covenant is also the best fit themeatically. I mean, that is quite often.


I named it "allovertheplace".

[Ast1982]

I might be missing something, but why does anyone care what spec or covenant another person takes?

I took venthyr on my mage because I liked the additional teleporting and aoe, it was made with purely my own interests at play and I can't ever imagine doing anything because it's what everyone else does or gives me a fractional dps boost

I like the additional options tbh

[Cosmic Janitor]

I might be missing something, but why does anyone care what spec or covenant another person takes?

I took venthyr on my mage because I liked the additional teleporting and aoe, it was made with purely my own interests at play and I can't ever imagine doing anything because it's what everyone else does or gives me a fractional dps boost

I like the additional options tbh

People care, because they (rightfully) want to make the point that Blizzard's third rate attempt to intrudce babies first RPG choice into WoW is complete and utter nonsense (even story wise if were not for a single unbelieveable throwaway line at the end of questing) and people overwhelmingly go with the best numerical choice due to Blizzard's utter incompetence when it comes to balancing. There are 2 huge outliers to this, namely Kyrian Paladin and Night Fae Druid, because the theme and aestetic just fit these two classes AND the abilities are very strong, wheres the rest is is pretty much just centered around the best choice. This is especially bad in some covenants where some ablities are/were just flat out bad, like Kyrian Mage for example.

[Glorious Leader]

It shows that even if they are casual they move so strongly towards min maxing that it is utterly folly to design around the idea they do differently.

This is not the only conclusion you can take from the data in fact your applying your preconceived ideas and just looking for data to match it. Its the exact opposite of being scientific. The data doesn't necessarily indicate the desire for players to min max but rather the fact that people simple don't know what to pick and look for guidance.

[Hinastorm]

The answer, imo, seems to be to let us change classes/specs/covenants and covenant like things, easier.

The game is too complex, apparently, to balance correctly.

They could make it less complex, but that would probably make it more boring than it already is.

Just have to face it, this isn't the old low information days anymore.

An alternative would be much more frequent balance patches, so as to muddy the waters a bit. I'm a fan of that approach.

[Kalisandra]

Exactly. The abilities could have been on a talent tree to choose, but you could choose a covenant to represent for cosmetic and zone unlock purposes. To me it feels like they just restricted content by only allowing you to experience one. Back in the day each covenant would be a different rep you could experience on one character.

Back in the day would be Burning Crusade and the choice of The Aldor vs The Scryers. Swapping between them was an incredible pain, much harder than swapping covenants. However, the benefits each provided were smaller - some shoulder enchants that were unique to each and some crafting patterns (so some professions and classes were a bit better off with one, some with the other). It was not a huge deal which you chose but swapping was.

[Good ol Stroggylos]

Well I may get the argument about main chars that we invest time in and want to progress as much following all the guides available.
But I don't get why I would get my third alt priest that I only lvled back in the day to be able to mc throw people down from EOS to follow the max covenant. Obviously am going to get them the covenant I find fitting. And I will enjoy it.
Does someone need to min max to get their goals?
Well if the realistic goal is to get edge, m15, glad and we behave as if we i wmf race, mdi and arena champs then this is again a social problem and also a call for phych analisys

[Swnem]

Well I may get the argument about main chars that we invest time in and want to progress as much following all the guides available.
But I don't get why I would get my third alt priest that I only lvled back in the day to be able to mc throw people down from EOS to follow the max covenant. Obviously am going to get them the covenant I find fitting. And I will enjoy it.
Does someone need to min max to get their goals?
Well if the realistic goal is to get edge, m15, glad and we behave as if we i wmf race, mdi and arena champs then this is again a social problem and also a call for phych analisys

Why? Is it that difficult to understand that people want to achieve their goals in as easy a way as possible? That is what humans do. It is perfectly normal. That in itself is fun.

I think there is a terrible idea going on with people who go for fantasy above all that it is fun only if you do that. It isn't. Being strong is more fun to most people, apparantly. I know it cancels out the narrative, but it is what it is. Turns out that casual play is not what you think. It's not imersion and roleplay, but it's feeling strong.

I don't find this shocking cause i don't find WoW to be very imersive since the story is pants and our character is just a chump.

[jazen]

Are we now creating new terms for min maxing like we did for casual and terrible player?

If your arguments boils down to " Well they just used a guide to be the best they didn't math it out" you really, really don't have much of a arguments...

So you agree with me that there's a big difference between min/max folks and people that just happen to choose a covenant that is best for their current class/spec.