Why is Sire so hard even for "AOTC" groups?

[Ange]

Overtuned HC Boss and no active post-progression nerf outside of the slow gearprogression and that means nothing with mechanical fights.

On one side, it makes AOTC more prestige and people will buy a boost for it till the end of the content.
On the other side, it kills casual raiding guilds who did not manage to progress till 10/10, because there is no active nerf over time effect in progress and gear does not really help since LEGION to clear HC raids.

But right now, most don't care.

=> the best gear is from PVP or dungeons, nobody really cares if casual raiding guilds are dying, the GOAL is either way clear one time and QUIT RAIDING or fail to clear one time and QUIT RAIDING anyways. Thats the case since LEGIONs new and improved raiding system. No tuning after progression (META COMPOSITION OR GTFO), no post-progression overtime nerfs. Who cares since M+ right?

[neescher]

Overtuned HC Boss and no active post-progression nerf outside of the slow gearprogression and that means nothing with mechanical fights.

On one side, it makes AOTC more prestige and people will buy a boost for it till the end of the content.
On the other side, it kills casual raiding guilds who did not manage to progress till 10/10, because there is no active nerf over time effect in progress and gear does not really help since LEGION to clear HC raids.

But right now, most don't care.

=> the best gear is from PVP or dungeons, nobody really cares if casual raiding guilds are dying, the GOAL is either way clear one time and QUIT RAIDING or fail to clear one time and QUIT RAIDING anyways. Thats the case since LEGIONs new and improved raiding system. No tuning after progression (META COMPOSITION OR GTFO), no post-progression overtime nerfs. Who cares since M+ right?

What's your point? Casual raiding guilds can't exist if they don't clear HC repeatedly?

Also, you keep saying there's no tuning or nerfs? The raid encounters have been nerfed several times since release, and if the past seasons are any indicator, they will probably be nerfed more before the season ends.

"Meta composition or GTFO"? My guild (which I would describe as semi-casual) just killed HC denathrius for the first time, and we just bring whoever is there, regardless of which class/spec they're playing. On our kill we had like 2 ret paladins, a frost mage, BM hunter, 3 rogues (sub/assa), and we didn't even have a warrior buff. We had 1 blue dps log, 3 green and the rest grey. You don't even need to play your class/rotation perfectly for Denathrius, you just have to dodge shit, stay alive and do average damage. No reason why a casual wouldn't be able to do this (in a guild group! they'd probably get kicked from PUGs)

[kiramon]

I got my sire in a streamer-from LFG tool, who told everyone what to do and did a great job overall. He does several runs a day for people.

And you know what? I really don't care. I aint going back to Sire anyways. Lolol

[kamuimac]

What's your point? Casual raiding guilds can't exist if they don't clear HC repeatedly?

Also, you keep saying there's no tuning or nerfs? The raid encounters have been nerfed several times since release, and if the past seasons are any indicator, they will probably be nerfed more before the season ends.

"Meta composition or GTFO"? My guild (which I would describe as semi-casual) just killed HC denathrius for the first time, and we just bring whoever is there, regardless of which class/spec they're playing. On our kill we had like 2 ret paladins, a frost mage, BM hunter, 3 rogues (sub/assa), and we didn't even have a warrior buff. We had 1 blue dps log, 3 green and the rest grey. You don't even need to play your class/rotation perfectly for Denathrius, you just have to dodge shit, stay alive and do average damage. No reason why a casual wouldn't be able to do this (in a guild group! they'd probably get kicked from PUGs)

well this is very true

you can put sh..t numbers all your have to do is dodge properly

problem is that this 9% nerf wont change anything because it wont make suddenly people be able to avoid stuff from death of cabalists and sword + stackign in p3 properly .

thats why this nerfs is pointless.

[netherflame]

I would wager most people who have AOTC that still pug sire, got it in a group that didnt need them. Effectively being carried with a loose idea of what to do.

Simply having AOTC just means you were there for the kill, not that you know how to kill it.

100% this, as a tank I still have people regularly like to stand behind me when I'm trying to debuff the cultists and then they get absolutely clapped, or in P3 almost no soaking occurs after really bad placement of the orbs.

[Argorwal]

well this is very true

you can put sh..t numbers all your have to do is dodge properly

problem is that this 9% nerf wont change anything because it wont make suddenly people be able to avoid stuff from death of cabalists and sword + stackign in p3 properly .

thats why this nerfs is pointless.

It’s main aspect is to make someone dying in p3 more forgiving because you have less hp to chew through and therefore less dps requirement.

People should have to handle mechanics, this is the capstone end raid boss for the vast majority of raiding guilds!

[neescher]

well this is very true

you can put sh..t numbers all your have to do is dodge properly

problem is that this 9% nerf wont change anything because it wont make suddenly people be able to avoid stuff from death of cabalists and sword + stackign in p3 properly .

thats why this nerfs is pointless.

I think you're 100% wrong. Especially in phase 3, every % counts. Most p3 wipes I've seen in pugs on Denathrius were below 5%.

[Daedius]

The biggest culprit for failure in Pugs, that I've noticed, is how people deal with the Cabalist adds... either they're nuking them dead when Sire pulls people to run through the mirror, ending up with people getting hit by Crescendo on the other side flying off... or people aren't handling Impale proper.

[Sanitee]

I think you're 100% wrong. Especially in phase 3, every % counts. Most p3 wipes I've seen in pugs on Denathrius were below 5%.

Because that's when people get horny and figure no need to soak, can dps boss down and BOOM, an unsoaked orb explodes and..... wiiiiiiiipe

[neocount]

I got my AOTC a few weeks ago in a guild run, and I have not killed Sire a single time since then. I always join "AOTC only" groups, and I even check the other people myself, it's almost always a full group of 10/10H......and yet we just wipe endlessly in phase 3 every time, never getting the boss below 10% even.

What's the deal?

Because the fight is not intuitive. It's just bad design.

[neescher]

Because that's when people get horny and figure no need to soak, can dps boss down and BOOM, an unsoaked orb explodes and..... wiiiiiiiipe

The reason isn't really relevan there - my point is, I completely disagree with the statement that a 9% HP nerf for Denathrius is pointless.

[froschhure]

because 95% of this playerbase is boosted by the upper 5%
you pay for the aotc av to then replay it with boosted ppl just like "yourself in "curve only" groups lmao

[FiveDkp]

Because that's when people get horny and figure no need to soak, can dps boss down and BOOM, an unsoaked orb explodes and..... wiiiiiiiipe

Definitely not the case from a lot of the wipes i've lead. It is always too many people dying on nasty overlaps.

- - - Updated - - -

well this is very true

you can put sh..t numbers all your have to do is dodge properly

problem is that this 9% nerf wont change anything because it wont make suddenly people be able to avoid stuff from death of cabalists and sword + stackign in p3 properly .

thats why this nerfs is pointless.

This is a 180o from earlier when you were stating that not wasting people's time is a toxic mindset. The 9% hp nerf is huge especially in P2/3 - you might even be able to avoid the 2nd adds and have cleaner transitions into p3 (by being able to kill 1-2 ranged adds).

The biggest issue is that to get a good P3 transition - you need to kill melee adds then tunnel boss with barely any damage on ranged adds - now you can most likely kill at least one or maybe both adds and have a clean transition into P3.

You said before that you don't raid unless it is a boost for AOTC so how do you have any experience with the fight?

[kamuimac]

Overtuned HC Boss and no active post-progression nerf outside of the slow gearprogression and that means nothing with mechanical fights.

On one side, it makes AOTC more prestige and people will buy a boost for it till the end of the content.
On the other side, it kills casual raiding guilds who did not manage to progress till 10/10, because there is no active nerf over time effect in progress and gear does not really help since LEGION to clear HC raids.

But right now, most don't care.

=> the best gear is from PVP or dungeons, nobody really cares if casual raiding guilds are dying, the GOAL is either way clear one time and QUIT RAIDING or fail to clear one time and QUIT RAIDING anyways. Thats the case since LEGIONs new and improved raiding system. No tuning after progression (META COMPOSITION OR GTFO), no post-progression overtime nerfs. Who cares since M+ right?

i loled.

AoTC might have been prestigous the first expansion it came out - but by now people have like what 20 of them ? what is prestigious about that.

AoTC was worth getting only when it was tied to mount that was going away .

[Hinastorm]

Also I suggest you to remove those who fail even once, you can't afford to carry on this boss, not with PuG anyway.

Annnnd this is why pugs have become so toxic in wow. You're part of the problem.

[T-34]

Annnnd this is why pugs have become so toxic in wow. You're part of the problem.

But he gets the boss killed in a timely manner, which is the purpose of pugs.
People that think that they are entitled to waste other people's time are the toxic people in WoW.

[Hinastorm]

But he gets the boss killed in a timely manner, which is the purpose of pugs.
People that think that they are entitled to waste other people's time are the toxic people in WoW.

Ah you again. So you're ok with kicking people after one mistake huh. And I assume you'll make an argument why it's not toxic.

Pretty sure kicking people everytime they make a mistake on heroic Dene will cause the run to take MORE time as you constantly cycle people in. But logic isn't your strong suit.

AND still putting words in my mouth. Never said pugs need to have infinite patience for failure. Merely that kicking after one mistake is objectively toxic.

Fucking clown.
Infracted

[Frozenbro]

Ah you again. So you're ok with kicking people after one mistake huh. And I assume you'll make an argument why it's not toxic.

Pretty sure kicking people everytime they make a mistake on heroic Dene will cause the run to take MORE time as you constantly cycle people in. But logic isn't your strong suit.

Fucking clown.

Depends on the mistake, there are mistakes that arent 100% on your control, and you can forgive those unless you have literally no soul, but in denathrius for example if a guy doesnt go out with impale and leaves impale on the whole raid, doesnt go out with fatal finesse and leaves the dot on the whole raid etc, mistakes like this are instakick in w/e guild and pug thats worth something.

[Speedlance]

Because most people buy boosts i would assume.

[Frozenbro]

i loled.

AoTC might have been prestigous the first expansion it came out - but by now people have like what 20 of them ? what is prestigious about that.

AoTC was worth getting only when it was tied to mount that was going away .

Let them believe its prestigious, keep the gold coming LOL