"Modern" Targeting System in TBC?

[kranur]

Dreani and blood elf can’t be boasted.

This isn’t a direct expansion of vanilla like it was the first time where TBC was the only version of WoW to play.

This is a release of TBC classic, what will coexist alongside vanilla classic and Shadowlands.

Non Blood elf/Draeni TBC content starts at 58 for the standalone game TBC classic.

That is why the boost is there.

The only thing that is not the same is Draenei and BE being available in the pre-patch and the option for people to remain in classic, which at the end of the day is equal to those people stop playing the game because they don't want tbc.

Other than that it's the same natural progression from vanilla to tbc. Otherwise they would just have tbc without access to classic zone and everyone starting in hellfire .. that's the only way starting all chars and 58 would make any sense.

The 1 time boost is there to increase the sub count of course.

[MasterHamster]

If I were to point at a single change that killed non-instance grouping it was shared mob tagging, and especially world pvp when it even became faction-shared.
Blizzard may as well phase out all other players, faction or enemy, if you're not in war mode at this point.
No, what happens in Classic/BC/whatever is that if a mob is tagged by an enemy, you either find another mob or try to kill that player and steal the mob.
If you see a friendly player fighting a mob you need, you throw them a group invite, and thank them if they accept. Who knows, maybe you end up staying in the group .. chatting... maybe even add eachother to /friends....

While it was quite a long time now, I'm happy that the "classic devs" made it clear that they don't think QoL changes that may impact the "social element" of the game will be changed. They didn't add queued dungeons for that reason, among others.

[NineSpine]

Most locks didn't play Affliction as a primary PvE spec until Mists, so it really wasn't a widespread issue that was cared about and at that time the team was still small and had to make choices as to what to fix when, so dot tagging wasn't a big deal for developers. The PvE spec had pretty much always been Destro or Demo with very very small exceptions.

Um.... no. Affliction was a very common spec always.

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There's plenty of dismissive handwaving on both sides. Those opposed to it will simply handwave with a "that's not the original design philosophy" or something around laziness/entitlement, or "it's about the journey" or my favorite, the slippery slope.

There's no "right" answer, just a bunch of us calling the others' opinions wrong. At the end of the day, when you look at the community and how it's shaped the Classic environment, a paid boost fits.

Paid power never fits, ever.

[Akibaboy]

Wouldn't the more sensible thing to just fix dungeon boosting?

After all, a change is necessary, so why not implement one that restores the game to its intended design?

I would absolutely love that. It doesn't looks like that's going to happen, and I'm sure if it did you'd hear the Classic community lose their minds until it was reversed.

In game money is a lot different than out of game money.

You're totally right. One of them has an adverse effect on the economy, demands, and the grouping ecosystem that you and I have to experience in-game every day. The other quarantines all of those boosting transactions externally from the game world and leaves the leveling/grouping space occupied by those that want to actually level / play that part of the game because they enjoy it.

[NineSpine]

I would absolutely love that. It doesn't looks like that's going to happen, and I'm sure if it did you'd hear the Classic community lose their minds until it was reversed.

You're totally right. One of them has an adverse effect on the economy, demands, and the grouping ecosystem that you and I have to experience in-game every day. The other quarantines all of those boosting transactions externally from the game world and leaves the leveling/grouping space occupied by those that want to actually level / play that part of the game because they enjoy it.

What is the adverse effect caused by dungeon boosting that will go away when people can pay $50 for a boost? Especially considering that the vast majority of people buying the $50 boost are going to be new players who don't have the gold to buy dungeon boosts anyway and the $50 boosts are limited to one per account?

[Kralljin]

I would absolutely love that. It doesn't looks like that's going to happen, and I'm sure if it did you'd hear the Classic community lose their minds until it was reversed.

You mean, something gets restored to its intended state?

You know, i think someone once made a comment about this whole "I think i want Classic, but not THAT" thing.

[Akibaboy]

What is the adverse effect caused by dungeon boosting that will go away when people can pay $50 for a boost? Especially considering that the vast majority of people buying the $50 boost are going to be new players who don't have the gold to buy dungeon boosts anyway and the $50 boosts are limited to one per account?

I think in the original context of how the discussion was started - "paid boosts are cringe" or something like that I was approaching the topic from the angle of uncapped boosting for TBC. Again, I don't like boosting and I'd never personally use it but I recognize the extreme demand for it as there's an entire version of the game now where a large percentage of its playerbase doesn't want to play a major portion of its content. It honestly doesn't make sense to just do the single boost - either let people do it uncapped, or crack down on boosting in-game... pretending like it's some gracious feature is disingenuous when boosting exists and is happening right now.

As far as the adverse effect, I tested this for a thread on another site, but I sat and watched the LookingForGroup channel on my server and counted how many of the messages were some variation of "WTS Boost" - 41 of the 100. Another significant portion were selling GDKP runs, and selling portals etc. There were 18 legitimate group requests. I also don't think noobs are going to "not have gold" for boosting as the more people have gotten into the market (and increased the spam) the cost has gone down. People are running the 30-50ish Mara boost for like 75g, an amount I definitely had by level 30~

Boosting is such a prevalent part of the Classic economy now, that I'd really prefer it just be something made external to the game itself. If you like leveling (like me, who's going to level another Rogue and Warlock from scratch in TBC despite having 60s of them), the Blizzard boost has no effect on you because you won't interact with it. If you don't like leveling then instead of having to engage in a frankly broken system and economy, you use the tool Blizzard provides for that. Both of those groups are happy - more people playing the game + more money for Blizzard = overall strong game health to keep it active for decades to come.

I understand it's a pretty crazy idea. I generally love Classic and am so happy it exists, but personally feel that the ability for pickup grouping in it could use some love. Hoping that their implementation of the modern Looking For Group tool (the non-automated one) can help with some of this.

[NineSpine]

I think in the original context of how the discussion was started - "paid boosts are cringe" or something like that I was approaching the topic from the angle of uncapped boosting for TBC. Again, I don't like boosting and I'd never personally use it but I recognize the extreme demand for it as there's an entire version of the game now where a large percentage of its playerbase doesn't want to play a major portion of its content. It honestly doesn't make sense to just do the single boost - either let people do it uncapped, or crack down on boosting in-game... pretending like it's some gracious feature is disingenuous when boosting exists and is happening right now.

As far as the adverse effect, I tested this for a thread on another site, but I sat and watched the LookingForGroup channel on my server and counted how many of the messages were some variation of "WTS Boost" - 41 of the 100. Another significant portion were selling GDKP runs, and selling portals etc. There were 18 legitimate group requests. I also don't think noobs are going to "not have gold" for boosting as the more people have gotten into the market (and increased the spam) the cost has gone down. People are running the 30-50ish Mara boost for like 75g, an amount I definitely had by level 30~

Boosting is such a prevalent part of the Classic economy now, that I'd really prefer it just be something made external to the game itself. If you like leveling (like me, who's going to level another Rogue and Warlock from scratch in TBC despite having 60s of them), the Blizzard boost has no effect on you because you won't interact with it. If you don't like leveling then instead of having to engage in a frankly broken system and economy, you use the tool Blizzard provides for that. Both of those groups are happy - more people playing the game + more money for Blizzard = overall strong game health to keep it active for decades to come.

I understand it's a pretty crazy idea. I generally love Classic and am so happy it exists, but personally feel that the ability for pickup grouping in it could use some love. Hoping that their implementation of the modern Looking For Group tool (the non-automated one) can help with some of this.

If you think buying power is going to make the game healthier, you are out of your mind. The same logic you are using for level boosts applies to buying profession boosts, exalted status, or gear. There is absolutely no difference.

You are arguing that you want more genuine social interaction therefore we should allow people to skip content. It's irrational. It doesn't follow.

[Akibaboy]

You are arguing that you want more genuine social interaction therefore we should allow people to skip content. It's irrational. It doesn't follow.

I want the people looking to sell a product to be quarantined out of the spaces that players who are looking to genuinely engage the game as intended use. I'm up for any number of solutions for that. The majority of the active servers have about 4-5x the population that the servers did back in the day due to the modern tech. I'd postulate that the number of people looking for legit groups is roughly akin to what it was in 2004-2006, but now we have to wade through a sea of noise to get to them.

Lets say TBC implements the modern LFG Tool as they've proposed at Blizzconline, and there's a separate tab for paid groups / gold groups / w-e to all exist in their space separate, that kind of thing would be a huge start. Currently, my ignore list is completely full of advertisers and spammers.

[Prag]

If you think buying power is going to make the game healthier, you are out of your mind. The same logic you are using for level boosts applies to buying profession boosts, exalted status, or gear. There is absolutely no difference.

You are arguing that you want more genuine social interaction therefore we should allow people to skip content. It's irrational. It doesn't follow.

Except literally none of those others have been paid options in WoW (but, funny enough, are options with gold). You equate time to power, which is a false equivalency. The only difference between a boosted 58 and a leveled 58 is the time spent getting there, except the boosted character is less powerful because they have zero professions, gold or reputations. Not sure how it'll work for class specific quests, but it could also mean boosted Druids still have to do their form quests, mount quests (Warlock/Paladins), or totem quests.

The person you quoted is right, though. These transactions are already happening. I'm not sure why you would think that not offering the paid service is going to somehow improve/change the existing dynamic, but considering it took literally 3 months for the community to shift to a boosting demand, it's pretty clear that won't happen. I don't know if it's just a different set of players or players with a different mindset, but it takes 5 minutes of joining any of the LFG channels to see what's going on.

[NineSpine]

I want the people looking to sell a product to be quarantined out of the spaces that players who are looking to genuinely engage the game as intended use. I'm up for any number of solutions for that. The majority of the active servers have about 4-5x the population that the servers did back in the day due to the modern tech. I'd postulate that the number of people looking for legit groups is roughly akin to what it was in 2004-2006, but now we have to wade through a sea of noise to get to them.

Lets say TBC implements the modern LFG Tool as they've proposed at Blizzconline, and there's a separate tab for paid groups / gold groups / w-e to all exist in their space separate, that kind of thing would be a huge start. Currently, my ignore list is completely full of advertisers and spammers.

That's fine. I don't care about additional tooling that doesn't change gameplay.

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Except literally none of those others have been paid options in WoW (but, funny enough, are options with gold). You equate time to power, which is a false equivalency. The only difference between a boosted 58 and a leveled 58 is the time spent getting there, except the boosted character is less powerful because they have zero professions, gold or reputations. Not sure how it'll work for class specific quests, but it could also mean boosted Druids still have to do their form quests, mount quests (Warlock/Paladins), or totem quests.

In retail, gold and cash are the same thing due to wow token. Anyone can buy tokens and buy their way to whatever they want in retail.

This time/power distinction is meaningless. A level 58 is more powerful than a level 1. End of story. It is no different than buying reputations, gear, arena rankings, or anything else.

The person you quoted is right, though. These transactions are already happening. I'm not sure why you would think that not offering the paid service is going to somehow improve/change the existing dynamic, but considering it took literally 3 months for the community to shift to a boosting demand, it's pretty clear that won't happen. I don't know if it's just a different set of players or players with a different mindset, but it takes 5 minutes of joining any of the LFG channels to see what's going on.

Cash and gold aren't the same thing in classic. I don't care if people buy things with in game currency. I care if they buy things with cash.

[ehma]

The only thing that is not the same is Draenei and BE being available in the pre-patch and the option for people to remain in classic, which at the end of the day is equal to those people stop playing the game because they don't want tbc.

Other than that it's the same natural progression from vanilla to tbc. Otherwise they would just have tbc without access to classic zone and everyone starting in hellfire .. that's the only way starting all chars and 58 would make any sense.

The 1 time boost is there to increase the sub count of course.

I mean blocking off vanilla content would literally break tbc I wouldn’t go that far lol

[Aphrel]

Yes, it would be too much.

I don't know when this was exactly introduced, but I think when i played in MOP it was still not in the game. You're basically asking for WoD+ game feature in TBC. At that point why not just play Shadowlands instead?

because he wants to play tbc content? What sort of dumb question is that. Are you under the impression that ppl only play new expansions for the qol features and not for the new content?

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If I were to point at a single change that killed non-instance grouping it was shared mob tagging, and especially world pvp when it even became faction-shared.
Blizzard may as well phase out all other players, faction or enemy, if you're not in war mode at this point.
No, what happens in Classic/BC/whatever is that if a mob is tagged by an enemy, you either find another mob or try to kill that player and steal the mob.
If you see a friendly player fighting a mob you need, you throw them a group invite, and thank them if they accept. Who knows, maybe you end up staying in the group .. chatting... maybe even add eachother to /friends....

While it was quite a long time now, I'm happy that the "classic devs" made it clear that they don't think QoL changes that may impact the "social element" of the game will be changed. They didn't add queued dungeons for that reason, among others.

this is pretty naive viewpoint as literally no1 would want to group up to farm motes of fire/water/air etc.

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I don't play Lock so wouldn't know, What makes it a nightmare? Can you not just spam dots on mobs to get them?

For a long time in wow, many expansions, damage was what tagged a mob to you. And lock dots takes 3sec to tick the first time with no initial damage. making them horrible at tagging

[ehma]

this is pretty naive viewpoint as literally no1 would want to group up to farm motes of fire/water/air etc.

I don’t think he was referring to mote farming, I think he was talking more about quest mobs, which makes what he said kinda correct. If you had multi mob tagging you wouldn’t need to group, but if you both had the same quest you will likely group up.

[Prag]

This time/power distinction is meaningless. A level 58 is more powerful than a level 1. End of story. It is no different than buying reputations, gear, arena rankings, or anything else.

It's definitely not meaningless. The difference between a boosted 58 and a new level 1 is time. The oversimplification of "wElL tHe 58 iS mOrE pOwErFuL" is just laughable. The boost buys time.

Cash and gold aren't the same thing in classic. I don't care if people buy things with in game currency. I care if they buy things with cash.

Where do you think a lot of this gold that buys power/time in classic comes from? I can tune in to a Naxx GDKP stream, watch someone bid 35k on a BIS KT weapon after having also bid 5k - 10k+ on other items from previous bosses and, what, you think they've farmed 100k per tier? Lmao.

[Kralljin]

The boost buys time.

As does the WoW Token.

Where do you think a lot of this gold that buys power/time in classic comes from? I can tune in to a Naxx GDKP stream, watch someone bid 35k on a BIS KT weapon after having also bid 5k - 10k+ on other items from previous bosses and, what, you think they've farmed 100k per tier? Lmao.

So we're at the usual point of the arguement where one has to point out the obvious that people who engage in RMT need to be banned, because they broke the ToS?

[Prag]

As does the WoW Token.

So we're at the usual point of the arguement where one has to point out the obvious that people who engage in RMT need to be banned, because they broke the ToS?

We've been stalled at the same point of circular arguments about opinions for over a decade, ever since they began offering paid services. Despite whatever attempts they've been making over the years to stop RMT and botting, the solution ended the same way: make it available through the store because the demand will always exist.

[Kralljin]

the solution ended the same way

So, two things.

First, you basically imply that the WoW token is a done deal, further confirming the very slippery slope that you called "dismissive" earlier.
When you think something is dismissive, i wouldn't phrase my arguements in a way that further support this.

Second, solution?
Have you seen what is going on Retail?

Solution to me means that a problem no longer exists, because it's solved, the botting problem on Retail, where the WoW token now exists for more than 6 years is anything but solved.

The WoW Token is not a solution - it's Blizzard getting their slice of the pie.

[Prag]

So, two things.

First, you basically imply that the WoW token is a done deal, further confirming the very slippery slope that you called "dismissive" earlier.
When you think something is dismissive, i wouldn't phrase my arguements in a way that further support this.

Second, solution?
Have you seen what is going on Retail?

Solution to me means that a problem no longer exists, because it's solved, the botting problem on Retail, where the WoW token now exists for more than 6 years is anything but solved.

The WoW Token is not a solution - it's Blizzard getting their slice of the pie.

You mentioned the WoW token and I was answering in the context of where that exists: retail. I can see why they'd add a token to classic but it's not like it's confirmed.

Botting and RMT in retail isn't 100% solved, nor has it been solved anywhere that some invasive software solution isn't utilized (which is still not 100%). If you're asking if I'd rather they do nothing until they can be the first company in history to solve it, my answer is obviously no.

Blizzard "getting a slice of the pie" is fine with me, given the alternative. Revenue going to a company that maintains a product I enjoy is not carte blanche for "make everything a micro transaction".

[Zyky]

Um.... no. Affliction was a very common spec always.

It really wasn't lol. You saw it in PvP once in a while, it was great for leveling, but it was always hinderance in PvE content, this is shown with ANY expansion leading up to Mists.

Classic was all about Shadowbolt spam because you couldn't take up debuff slots.
BC was all about Shadowbolt or Incinerate spam because the only viable spec was Imp or Succubus Destro Sacrifice.
Wrath was all about Demonology because of how overtuned Metamorphosis was.
Cataclysm was all about Demonology because of how overpowered Chaos Bolt was.
It wasn't until Mists, as I stated, that Affliction was a viable PvE spec because that's when Affliction got a strong execute mechanic.