Now that its been proven min maxes are the majority will content change?

[Twdft]

But I don't get why I would get my third alt priest that I only lvled back in the day to be able to mc throw people down from EOS to follow the max covenant. Obviously am going to get them the covenant I find fitting. And I will enjoy it.

I have all 4 covenants over my first four lv60 chars, only 2 of them are in the "best" covenant. Later chars mostly get optimal covenants, just because... why gimp them, I got all the story already.

Currently I am leveling my third paladin, all of them are exclusively tank, all of them Kyrian. Coincidently the "best" covenant is the most fun too. Even if Kyrian was numerically the worst, I would always choose Kyrian because nothing is more fun than Divine Toll. Whoever came up with that deserves a raise. I wish every spec/covenant combo had such an ability, no other class has a covenant button that fun to press.

[Lolites]

I would always choose Kyrian because nothing is more fun than Divine Toll.

this is something a lot of people claiming "everyone is minmaxer" seem to ignore completely, a lot of people takes covenant bcs of the ability not bcs its strongest but bcs its fun, or simply bcs other covenant abilities are boring and bland...

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

this is something a lot of people claiming "everyone is minmaxer" seem to ignore completely, a lot of people takes covenant bcs of the ability not bcs its strongest but bcs its fun, or simply bcs other covenant abilities are boring and bland...

We'll have a better view of that percentage as the patches drag on and covenants are inevitably always rebalanced. If people stick with what they chose, then it's a matter of fun and lore. If we start seeing a bunch of people hopping covenants every major patch to whatever is "best" then we know it's min-maxing.

[Kagthul]

How are min-maxers the majority when the majority of WoW players dont even do content that even benefits from it?

Most people dont raid past LFR (and LFR doesn't even score 50% of the player base - its less than 40% right now).

Most people dont do rated PvP... (sub 10%)

So... wotm8?

[Lolites]

We'll have a better view of that percentage as the patches drag on and covenants are inevitably always rebalanced. If people stick with what they chose, then it's a matter of fun and lore. If we start seeing a bunch of people hopping covenants every major patch to whatever is "best" then we know it's min-maxing.

that would be definitely helpful, although still hardly proof as some like to call it as we dont know why people picked and then changed covenant in the first place (not to mention any data we have aer fairly incomplete), but yeah, movements definitely would tell us more than current "static" situation

[sam86]

It shows that even if they are casual they move so strongly towards min maxing that it is utterly folly to design around the idea they do differently. The faction imbalance is a different topic one brought about by blizzard mishandling racials so badly and being addicted to that sweet faction/server change money that they allowed the lion share of the end game population to cement itself on one faction.

There are limits to min maxing. For example no matter how hard they try people hate mechagnomes.

i agree i got u wrong, they can be extreme casual and still min-max
but if end-game is horde dominated, but less than 10% of entire game population, and according to blizz ally/horde ratio is 50/50, they can't do anything
if they buff alliance (they flat out admit ally racials are better, but not broken op) it will ruin balance in general, and the 'top' wow players need to admit fact they are extreme minority, not the vast majority of casual

[Nobleshield]

If anything this shows what a stranglehold the toxic and cancerous min-max community has on the game. When you have assholes gatekeeping content because someone is anything less than 100% optimal and peddling this horseshit constantly that min-maxing is the only way to do anything is it any surprise that people just go to look at a guide and take the lazy approach?

This is why they got rid of talent trees, and reforging, and basically everything else they've gotten rid of over the years because people degenerate everything into a cookie cutter build that "everyone" uses because it gets perpetuated constantly that if you don't follow you'll get left behind.

There has always been this insidious and pervasive degeneracy in games where people who can't comprehend doing anything that's not completely optimized begin to push the narrative this is the only way anything should be done. Eventually they get loud enough it begins to trickle down and infect the rest of the community.

[kiramon]

Necrolord definitely what I think about when I see "Resto Druid"

Well I just wanted Insect Swarm back...

Priests largely aren't going Kyrian tho, and only this patch are some priests going Night Fae because it's stronger now for Holy. Before Holy priests were Necrolord - very thematic indeed.

I was night fae before this patch on my priest; and nobody wants to go Kyrian because it's friggen awkward to use.

[Kaver]

this is something a lot of people claiming "everyone is minmaxer" seem to ignore completely, a lot of people takes covenant bcs of the ability not bcs its strongest but bcs its fun, or simply bcs other covenant abilities are boring and bland...

No one ignores that. Sure some players choose covenants based on the “fun” of the ability, but the vast majority of players (casuals included) choose covenants based on what is strongest. Denying that is simply ignorant.

[bash the fash]

If you ignore that the best covenant also often are the best fit themeatically, sure.

this is a matter of personal preference, and my personal preference is that it's incredibly boring to be a hunter/druid whose class is already nature-themed and also join the nature-themed covenant. same goes for DKs in necrolord or paladins in kyrian imo. boring and unimaginative

[bloodykiller86]

With covenants we finally found a way to put to the old argument to rest. Min maxing is what matters to the vast majority of players. Most specs have upwards of 90% of the active player base picking the covenant that offers them the best performance. (There are some exceptions like havoc but that specs dead and its abysmal numbers seem to point towards min maxing rather then against.)

Now that the old argument has been put to rest do you think in the future we will see blizzard moving away from meaningless systems like covenants and relics now that it has been shown players only care about what gives the best performance barring a tiny minority?

imho if you dont min max in this game to get your best performance why are you even playing? unless all you do is solo content then it doesnt really matter

[bash the fash]

imho if you dont min max in this game to get your best performance why are you even playing? unless all you do is solo content then it doesnt really matter

anyone who does anything with even a hint of seriousness minmaxes to some degree, it's just a matter of how far. i played a "suboptimal "covenant for a class where all choices were essentially so close in PVE that it was irrelevant and was whisper-harassed about it by weirdos. the ability was also recently buffed and is now really good for M+ and half of CN's bosses, which is another reason "minmaxing" can be taken too far to one extreme. i stuck with my covenant because i liked it and i knew the abilities sucked and they'd likely get buffed. which they did.

[RoKPaNda]

No, i am not misguided. There are clearly better Covenants. The 1% argument is a myth. Of course, it depends on the encounter or type of content you are doing. But, it's undeniable. They synergise with trinket choices, class mechanics and legendaries. Some are clearly better. There is no argument. No one is being misguided. Even if it wasn't on online guides, it would still be noticeable on logs, which they are.

I don't think you read the post you quoted correctly tbh.

[Triceron]

The only solution to min-maxing is limiting the options to one direct path. Otherwise, homogenize all options to be absolutely equal in the long-run.

Min-maxing is bland. It's the bland pick. It's the bland option. To design the game around min-maxing is to design the game to be bland.

[LordVargK]

Well I just wanted Insect Swarm back...

Yes, I like automatically jumping DoTs. I wish we could have more of them. But Blizz does not like smart spells

[thilicen]

If you think people listening to the overall concensus on a decision that is hard to revert is min-maxing, you clearly have no fucking clue what min-maxing actually is.

[bloodykiller86]

anyone who does anything with even a hint of seriousness minmaxes to some degree, it's just a matter of how far. i played a "suboptimal "covenant for a class where all choices were essentially so close in PVE that it was irrelevant and was whisper-harassed about it by weirdos. the ability was also recently buffed and is now really good for M+ and half of CN's bosses, which is another reason "minmaxing" can be taken too far to one extreme. i stuck with my covenant because i liked it and i knew the abilities sucked and they'd likely get buffed. which they did.

i can agree with that i dont think you need to take it to the extreme but if you're playing a really bad spec, dont look to improve your rotation etc etc then you're wasting people's time that you're in a group with. now im not talking about new players either, they'll learn eventually (hopefully) but older players should know better

[Electric Lighter]

The only solution to min-maxing is limiting the options to one direct path. Otherwise, homogenize all options to be absolutely equal in the long-run.

Min-maxing is bland. It's the bland pick. It's the bland option. To design the game around min-maxing is to design the game to be bland.

Yet WoW always has been arguably with the exception of perhaps the first time vanilla came out. Even in burning crusade you had "dead" specs and even classes. After fifteen years you can try to die on this hill but the battle was finished so long ago the result of it can legally drive now I think.

[anon5123]

Min-maxing is bland. It's the bland pick. It's the bland option. To design the game around min-maxing is to design the game to be bland.

Saying something over and over doesn't make it true, sweetie.

- - - Updated - - -

Even in burning crusade you had "dead" specs and even classes.

wat

I mean you could argue that certain specs in vanilla were just unviable for PvE, but in TBC, there were no "dead" specs, and absolutely NO "dead" classes. Every class was good in PvE and PvP with at least one spec. All of the "meme specs" from vanilla were perfectly raid viable too.

[Electric Lighter]

Saying something over and over doesn't make it true, sweetie.

- - - Updated - - -



wat

I mean you could argue that certain specs in vanilla were just unviable for PvE, but in TBC, there were no "dead" specs, and absolutely NO "dead" classes. Every class was good in PvE and PvP with at least one spec. All of the "meme specs" from vanilla were perfectly raid viable too.

O sweet summer child.. winter is coming.