Now that its been proven min maxes are the majority will content change?

[Triceron]

Saying something over and over doesn't make it true, sweetie.

Sure, and I could just say it once for it to be true.

Designing the game to have min-max equality will make it bland. If you haven't noticed, WoW's whole history is built on keeping classes interesting by intentionally having them shift balance between certain classes and races.

If they really wanted to make the game balanced, all they have to do is adopt a stat system like Guild Wars 2 which is actually very balanced because everything is homogenized. WoW is built around an ever-tipping scale that incentivizes the community to find the new 'Fad of the Month' is every time the game changes.

[Aydinx2]

Saying something over and over doesn't make it true, sweetie.

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wat

I mean you could argue that certain specs in vanilla were just unviable for PvE, but in TBC, there were no "dead" specs, and absolutely NO "dead" classes. Every class was good in PvE and PvP with at least one spec. All of the "meme specs" from vanilla were perfectly raid viable too.

You're arguing in favor of a premise that you don't believe in.
Min-Maxin is the majority of the game, since even casuals look at Icy Veins and will almost always pick the best option.
You can't say that all "meme specs" were perfectly viable because they simply weren't. Viability is not the ability of a class to be there when a boss dies. It's the ability to perform in such a way that being there is not detrimental.

[anon5123]

Sure, and I could just say it once for it to be true.

Designing the game to have min-max equality will not make it bland.

I said it, therefor it is true.

O sweet summer child.. winter is coming.

Nice non-argument.

I played during actual retail TBC. There were no "dead classes" or "dead specs". No amount of meme responses from you will change that.

You can't say that all "meme specs" were perfectly viable

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

[Triceron]

Designing the game to have min-max equality will not make it bland.

I said it, therefor it is true.

I could have said Tomatos taste good. You could disagree. Both would be true to us. Truth is relative.

I have no interest in arguing your beliefs. You can believe it to be true, I won't argue that. But simply expressing your own belief doesn't make my argument any less true.

[Lolites]

Min-Maxin is the majority of the game, since even casuals look at Icy Veins and will almost always pick the best option.

thats not realy minmaxing though, thats "i dont care so ill ask someone/check guide"

ill give you example on icy veins itself, on talent builds - minmaxer will check the guide on talents, consider options and pick whats recommended for the content he does, casual will check "easy mode" page and pick that... a lot of people dont check guide to pick the "best", but to pick something useful without having to think about it, thats why the "easy mode" page actualy exist

[Triceron]

Yet WoW always has been arguably with the exception of perhaps the first time vanilla came out. Even in burning crusade you had "dead" specs and even classes. After fifteen years you can try to die on this hill but the battle was finished so long ago the result of it can legally drive now I think.

Not quite sure what you mean by 'die on this hill' when I was just pointing out that min-maxing has always existed, and the game is designed with intentional inefficiencies that shifts balance from one to another.

I'm not actually suggesting the game to be 'fixed', I've simply pointed out that any solution to the min-max problem is a problem in itself, because WoW was never designed to be balanced, it was designed to be consistently imbalanced. Even stat and class homogenization is just a way to reign in the numerous RNG factors that contribute to the shift in imbalances, not a true step towards equalizing the balance.

[Doffen]

this is a matter of personal preference, and my personal preference is that it's incredibly boring to be a hunter/druid whose class is already nature-themed and also join the nature-themed covenant. same goes for DKs in necrolord or paladins in kyrian imo. boring and unimaginative

Yep, totally get that too. I mentioned seeing a feral druid being venthyr in another post. A bloodthirsty beast with vampires, I think thats very cool.

[Good ol Stroggylos]

Why? Is it that difficult to understand that people want to achieve their goals in as easy a way as possible? That is what humans do. It is perfectly normal. That in itself is fun.

I think there is a terrible idea going on with people who go for fantasy above all that it is fun only if you do that. It isn't. Being strong is more fun to most people, apparantly. I know it cancels out the narrative, but it is what it is. Turns out that casual play is not what you think. It's not imersion and roleplay, but it's feeling strong.

I don't find this shocking cause i don't find WoW to be very imersive since the story is pants and our character is just a chump.

Well obviously players would like to achieve goals the easiest way possible.
But equally we do not see all the time players going for fotm or current meta.
And am not really sure I get all the critique against the covenant system. Its a pseudo talent/spec/class choice that came in this expansion that is also attached to cosmetics/elements of the story.
Second part can be covered by alts during content drought periods. First part brings some balance anxiety that was there from day 1 when vanilla servers opened with every patch and every expansion regardless of systems. We need to be vocal about obvious broken synergies or easily spotted weak and dead choices but it's not the end days imo.

[Swnem]

I don't think you read the post you quoted correctly tbh.

You know, i think i used it as a spring board most of all in regards to your statement that doing a +15 and wanting to be optimal is the same as behaving like a world first.
I did not address the whole post. So, if you got something to say, go ahead. Not gonna play a guessing game.

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Well obviously players would like to achieve goals the easiest way possible.
But equally we do not see all the time players going for fotm or current meta.
And am not really sure I get all the critique against the covenant system. Its a pseudo talent/spec/class choice that came in this expansion that is also attached to cosmetics/elements of the story.
Second part can be covered by alts during content drought periods. First part brings some balance anxiety that was there from day 1 when vanilla servers opened with every patch and every expansion regardless of systems. We need to be vocal about obvious broken synergies or easily spotted weak and dead choices but it's not the end days imo.

Actually, we do see players going for fotm all the time. Have you not seen the amount of DH tanks in mythic+ atm? Fotm is something that constantly happens.
The critique is that people would like to enjoy all aspects of the game, rather than having to choose one. Would it not be better to be able to maximize your performance and be able to choose the fantasy you like the most?
No, it's not the end days. I am being critical cause i would like them to listen to feedback. This was clearly pointed out to them in beta, and to Ion's face with the Preach interview. Still, they chose to go ahead saying they believed they would balance it, while preach didn't. Preach was proved right in this case. In the heels of the Corruption system, it was hardly surprising.

[doodle90]

Uh not sure about min maxing but most of the crappy dps covenant skills are also the boring ones and also don't fit thematically so you cant really say min max is why. Take druid. Convoke is just fun to use, their other one is a passive, one is just a dot, and one a stupid haste buff. Thematically convoke fits the most, imo its the most fun to use, and it just so happens to also perform the best.

[anon5123]

Truth is relative.
But simply expressing your own belief doesn't make my argument any less true.

"haha it's just my opinion bro lol it can't be wrong"

The telltale sign of not having an actual argument.

[Good ol Stroggylos]

You, know i think i used it as a spring board most of all in regards to your statement that doing a +15 and wanting to be optimal is the same as behaving like a world first.
I did not address the whole post. So, if you got something to say, go ahead. Not gonna play a guessing game.

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Actually, we do see players going for fotm all the time. Have you not seen the amount of DH tanks in mythic+ atm? Fotm is something that constantly happens.
The critique is that people would like to enjoy all aspects of the game, rather than having to choose one. Would it not be better to be able to maximize your performance and be able to choose the fantasy you like the most?
No, it's not the end days. I am being critical cause i would like them to listen to feedback. This was clearly pointed out to them in beta, and to Ion's face with the Preach interview. Still, they chose to go ahead saying they believed they would balance it, while preach didn't. Preach was proved right in this case. In the heels of the Corruption system, it was hardly surprising.

Agree again. My take and where I feel our concerns are not really voiced is on a slightly different base : balance is a historical problem. However the game managed to thrive even with that. I guess we can all agree that the game (and our experience) was doing well even with several dead choices, not only rep factions/ gear, but also talents and even whole specs ( prime example would be ret/prot pallies for quite some expansions, last iterations of surv hunters etc etc the list can go on forever). Players making the odd choices would have difficulty maxing their character and experiencing (impossible to enjoy for sure) the content.
Covenant system is not fixing this and although they are trying to balance it as much the main concern is that they spend too many resources to develop and monitor a system that is not bringing out their? vision.
Essentially they deprive a game that is running on steam from valuable resources that could be used to make it actually better in this and also the following expansion.

[Electric Lighter]

Agree again. My take and where I feel our concerns are not really voiced is on a slightly different base : balance is a historical problem. However the game managed to thrive even with that. I guess we can all agree that the game (and our experience) was doing well even with several dead choices, not only rep factions/ gear, but also talents and even whole specs ( prime example would be ret/prot pallies for quite some expansions, last iterations of surv hunters etc etc the list can go on forever). Players making the odd choices would have difficulty maxing their character and experiencing (impossible to enjoy for sure) the content.
Covenant system is not fixing this and although they are trying to balance it as much the main concern is that they spend too many resources to develop and monitor a system that is not bringing out their? vision.
Essentially they deprive a game that is running on steam from valuable resources that could be used to make it actually better in this and also the following expansion.

They also created another barrier to playing the game at the higher end. There are certain specs that are utterly crippled in pvp should they pick one covenant over another. The system didn't just utterly fail it negatively impacted the game by its inception.

[Triceron]

"haha it's just my opinion bro lol it can't be wrong"

The telltale sign of not having an actual argument.

You mean, exactly what you presented?

Good self analysis.

[Lolites]

Uh not sure about min maxing but most of the crappy dps covenant skills are also the boring ones and also don't fit thematically so you cant really say min max is why. Take druid. Convoke is just fun to use, their other one is a passive, one is just a dot, and one a stupid haste buff. Thematically convoke fits the most, imo its the most fun to use, and it just so happens to also perform the best.

this, and thinking of class that doesnt really fit anywhere thematicaly - warlock - people say most chosen night fae bcs of power, but the other 3 abilities are just soo goddamn boring... while soul rot is a DOT that makes you lifedrain from multiple targets, its so fun and tbh fits warlock (especialy affi) so well

[Rageonit]

Min-maxers are not a majority. Parrots are, though.