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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I don't know man this sounds like a terrible idea. The moment an oppressed group starts justifying and engaging in violence they lose the moral high ground in my eyes. It's why I don't shed very many tears for other groups like Palestinians.
    So, the Jews should have just marched silently into the fucking gas chambers? After all, if they would have resisted, they would be the same as the Nazis in your eyes...

  2. #102
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, the Jews should have just marched silently into the fucking gas chambers? After all, if they would have resisted, they would be the same as the Nazis in your eyes...
    They had the right to be violent to any individual German that initiated violence or was actively trying to get them killed but they did not have a right to go around killing German civilians in a random fashion. Palestinian terrorists don't care about this kind of distinction. The Holocaust is off-topic though and not terribly relevant because China knows they can't straight-up kill all the Uigurs and they basically just want to maintain control of the region. Uigur independence and resistance would be a threat to the CCP but I don't think the CCP or the Han people actually hate the Uigurs.
    Last edited by PC2; 2021-03-18 at 01:48 AM.

  3. #103
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    The moment an oppressed group starts justifying and engaging in violence they lose the moral high ground in my eyes.
    So what was your excuse for ignoring all the violence being done to them by the state before they started fighting back? "It'll get better eventually, just trust the system?"

    Stop carrying water for fascists, sweaty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I don't know man this sounds like a terrible idea. The moment an oppressed group starts justifying and engaging in violence they lose the moral high ground in my eyes. It's why I don't shed very many tears for other groups like Palestinians.
    That's fine, no one is beholden to you for anything anyway. You can be safely disregarded in those issues.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    They had the right to be violent to any individual German that initiated violence or was actively trying to get them killed but they did not have a right to go around killing German civilians in a random fashion.
    You mean like how the US/Allied "strategic bombing" targeted civilians? Or how the US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Nobody in his right mind is going to say that armed insurrection, terrorism etc are a good thing.

    But, the complexities of population displacements and genocide supersede such simplistic categorizations.

    Is an ethnic Chinese population selected for ideological loyalty that is moved into your community, who replace your businesses, take over your homes and "sleep" your wife to "create national solidarity", who run the re-education camps, and who will spy on you on behalf of the government a legitimate target?

    Are the taxpayers/citizens funding and supporting these measures legitimate targets?

    What is the actual scale of the threat to public safety? How often are innocent Chinese civilians targeted?

    I think your arguments are dumb and simplistic and you just expect victims to take it and even suggest they might be at fault for being victimized.

  6. #106
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    So what was your excuse for ignoring all the violence being done to them by the state before they started fighting back?
    I've only known about these kinds of issues for a decade, most of what has happened was before my time. It doesn't matter though because if we want to make progress then every day in the present must be seen as a fresh new beginning.
    "It'll get better eventually, just trust the system?"
    Of course it'll get better as long as everyone criticizes the people who are being violent and coercive instead of holding a tit-for-tat philosophy.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    They had the right to be violent to any individual German that initiated violence or was actively trying to get them killed but they did not have a right to go around killing German civilians in a random fashion. Palestinian terrorists don't care about this kind of distinction. The Holocaust is off-topic though and not terribly relevant because China knows they can't straight-up kill all the Uigurs and they basically just want to maintain control of the region. Uigur independence and resistance would be a threat to the CCP but I don't think the CCP or the Han people actually hate the Uigurs.
    Once again, you are moving goalposts on your initial assertions. You claimed those who resorted to violence lose the moral high ground.

    Keep defending genocide.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I've only known about these kinds of issues for a decade, most of what has happened was before my time. It doesn't matter though because if we want to make progress then every day in the present must be seen as a fresh new beginning.

    Of course it'll get better as long as everyone criticizes the people who are being violent and coercive instead of holding a tit-for-tat philosophy.
    At best you exhibit a Pollyanna-like naivety, at worst you are being disingenuously defensive of authoritarian abuses.

  9. #109
    Problem is this is likely to be ignored, or treated as a diplomatic issue. (For what that's worth)

  10. #110
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    As a side note, my Internet is (and for months has been), dodging the Great Firewall. My parents are, of course, older than I am, so I need a clear picture of what's going on. Let's say this were a scientific report, for example "Drinking beer that is past its expiration date is linked to longer lasting erections". What steps would you guys take to fact check it?

    Well, at a guess, you'd want to know who did the study, right? I'd prefer not to be seen as pushing an agenda, but maybe someone who isn't posting from China could do independent research and tell me ... why is this called an independent report, what point is being made? Who did the report, and is it truly a neutral think tank? What's their history? Search algorithms can skew searches, so please consider this an actual set of questions. For example, I notice my own search results seem to be influenced by having viewed Cossack sword dances and enjoyed Gingertail's version of Red Alert too often. Even without the Great Firewall, and checking stuff from a "location" in Japan, the UK, and the US, what I think I know may still be filtered by the great god Goog'el.

    For my part, in general I think @Rasulis laid out a good general timeline with firsthand observations. I'm just not completely sure of what it means, for example without full background, what does having the National Guard presence in D.C. say about the current state of the US?
    With COVID-19 making its impact on our lives, I have decided that I shall hang in there for my remaining days, skip some meals, try to get children to experiment with making henna patterns on their skin, and plant some trees. You know -- live, fast, dye young, and leave a pretty copse. I feel like I may not have that quite right.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Short of the west invading China and annexing Xinjiang. I don't see what the world can do about the Uighur situation.

    If they could do it without starting WW3, I would not mind the US taking over Xinjiang. We have started wars in some of the ugliest regions of the world with little pretext. On the other hand, I have done my share of travels, and Xinjiang is bar none one most the most beautiful region I have ever been. Our last trip there was there was 2017 and it had become a police state. Big difference from our 2012 trip, and definitely nothing like our two trips in 2005 - 2007 when it was still normal.
    We tried that in Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya and Syria and other countries to boot.

    Until we learn to nation build instead of nation bash, we need to not taking over other countries or territories. Things don't tend to get better in other countries when we move in. Or at least recently they have not.

    Iraqi Christians had vibrant communities in Iraq under the protective government of Saddam Hussein. Why defend him? Once he was removed from office and killed, it was open season on Iraqi Christians until large numbers of them fled the country. They chose Syria as a safer place to live. For all the tough common sense rhetoric about how moral and good it was to remove him, and how evil he was, since he was killed things are much worse for the people living in Iraq.

    It would be nice if the US in practice lived up to our ideals about caring for human rights and making the world a good place to live for the masses. We could invest in places where we could actually make a difference, like Iraq or Honduras or any number of countries. This by the way would also be a very good way to contrast the US and China and be the best way to wage our international political war with China.

    We are already fighting an economic war with China that we are mostly losing and losing badly. This thread seems to be a call to arms to maximize the losses that the US accrues over the next decade.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    We are already fighting an economic war with China that we are mostly losing and losing badly. This thread seems to be a call to arms to maximize the losses that the US accrues over the next decade.
    The US had zero trade with China 50yrs ago.
    What changed?

  13. #113
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    We are already fighting an economic war with China that we are mostly losing and losing badly.
    Meh, even if a competitor has a couple economic advantages it can be misleading to call it a war and say we're losing because economics is a positive-sum game over time. Both parties in this economic war can perpetually grow and prosper in parallel even if one side grows a bit faster. Where as an actual war doesn't have win-win scenarios.
    Last edited by PC2; 2021-03-19 at 01:08 AM.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    The US had zero trade with China 50yrs ago.
    What changed?
    We moved a lot of our manufacturing to China. Large scale manufacturing requires a lot of infrastructure to make it happen, a lot more than what was required before. So moving out of China will not be quick and it will not be cheap.

    Attempts HAVE been made to move some manufacturing to other countries. US corporations dangled MILLIONS OF JOBS PAYING $0.39 per hour to multiple countries.

    Other countries refused for a lot of reasons. The infrastucture costs would be entirely paid for by the country, the jobs don't pay that well, all the profits would go to the US corporation, and the corporations WOULDN'T EVEN PAY FOR THE SUICIDE NETS. Oooops that last one did not happen. However, I think it's safe to say that no one wanted their country associated with the suicide nets that might become required if people working long hard hours for very low wages started killing themselves at work in THEIR country.

    The other big difference is that the Chinese people buy a LOT of goods from other countries. Boeing is ... at least was ... expecting for a very large percentage of their future growth to be the Chinese market. As shown during the Trump administration, our farmers rely on the Chinese to keep them in business. China switching their soy purchases from the US to Brazil is a nice win for Brazil. Our entertainment industries gear their products to the Chinese market because it boosts their profits. Losing the Chinese markets would cost US corporations billions of dollars. Trillions? well over a decade or so maybe.

    One of the rules that the US decided upon is: countries don't go to war with trading partners. This is why.

    Another example of why fighting China is so complicated.

    In another thread, Rasulis did a GREAT job of documenting the current Chinese chip problems. And they are huge for China, and will take at least 5 years to fix, probably closer to 10. But... what can we do that won't hurt the US as much or more???

    WE CAN'T HAVE SELF DRIVING CARS BECAUSE THE CHINESE ARE MANUFACTURE SOME OF THE CRITICAL PARTS, AND WE WON'T LET THEM USE OUR CHIPS. WE HAVE A PHONE SHORTAGE BECAUSE...

    The details of that last sentence and sentence fragment are certainly wrong, but the idea is not wrong at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Meh, even if a competitor has a couple economic advantages it can be misleading to call it a war and say we're losing because economics is a positive-sum game over time. Both parties in this economic war can perpetually grow and prosper in parallel even if one side grows a bit faster. Where as an actual war doesn't have win-win scenarios.
    We have negotiators in multiple countries (Portugal complained bitterly about this) that are saying things like Either us or China - if you want US trade and assistance you have to reduce or better yet eliminate trade deals with China.

    This is definitely economic war. And the US is actively but mostly fruitlessly encouraging its corporations to reduce its business deals with China. Rasulis documented a successful example of this in another thread, so it's not ALL fruitless. This is also economic war. And the US constantly publishes articles that are very critical of pretty much every aspect of what China is about. So this is a media attack on China as well.

    The US talks a LOT about decoupling our economies. The message here is that the Chinese people are SO EVIL THAT WE DON'T EVEN WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH THEM. This also is the sound of war.

    And as far as your last sentence?

    Where as an actual war doesn't have win-win scenarios.

    Rasulis documented the losses faced by Huaweii. Our farmers took a hit during the Trump administration. As this war escalates, so too will the losses.

  15. #115
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    We have negotiators in multiple countries (Portugal complained bitterly about this) that are saying things like Either us or China - if you want US trade and assistance you have to reduce or better yet eliminate trade deals with China.

    This is definitely economic war. And the US is actively but mostly fruitlessly encouraging its corporations to reduce its business deals with China. Rasulis documented a successful example of this in another thread, so it's not ALL fruitless. This is also economic war. And the US constantly publishes articles that are very critical of pretty much every aspect of what China is about. So this is a media attack on China as well.

    The US talks a LOT about decoupling our economies. The message here is that the Chinese people are SO EVIL THAT WE DON'T EVEN WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH THEM. This also is the sound of war.

    And as far as your last sentence?

    Where as an actual war doesn't have win-win scenarios.

    Rasulis documented the losses faced by Huaweii. Our farmers took a hit during the Trump administration. As this war escalates, so too will the losses.
    I know it's an economic competition but I just feel like it's a bad analogy to "war" unless it's so intense that one side is shrinking and not growing in absolute terms each year.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I know it's an economic competition but I just feel like it's a bad analogy to "war" unless it's so intense that one side is shrinking and not growing in absolute terms each year.
    Fair enough.

    Having said that, the US is already doing pretty much everything it can - or at least 90% or so of what it can do - already. And the attempts that the US is making to discourage other countries from trading with China - something they are NOT reciprocating on from what I can tell - are most definitely hostile actions.

  17. #117
    Warchief Torched's Avatar
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    Sadly this will be ignored because of greed, after all greed is one of the deadliest of the 7 deadly sins.
    “A man will contend for a false faith stronger than he will a true one,” he observes. “The truth defends itself, but a falsehood must be defended by its adherents: first to prove it to themselves and secondly, that they may appear right in the estimation of their friends.”
    -The Acts of Pilate.

  18. #118
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    China has had a policy of Sinicization for decades, if not centuries. The goal is ethnic assimilation, and it's been done in the past by the Chinese multiple times. This really isn't new, it's just been largely ignored because China hadn't picked sides.

    What we're witnessing is the rise of a modern Nazi state - and one that is more intelligent and powerful.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    People don't care for the same reason they didn't care between 1936 and 1944. Out of sight, out of mind. The fact that Islamophobia is about as rampant in the West today as anti-semitism was in 1930's also doesn't help.

    Also, keep in mind, nobody went to war with the Nazis to save the Jews.
    I think this statement is very little thought through and quite disrespectful to the Jews who died or lived through those times.
    The world is not the same today as it was in the 30s, and Germany then was nowhere near the powerhouse China is, or had any hold on the rest of the world like they do.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    The US had zero trade with China 50yrs ago.
    What changed?
    After China made its great leap backward and then had their gang of four they switched from communism to capitalism with a communistic facade starting about 50 years ago. Capitalism lifted China from poverty and ensured that they had items to trade with the rest of the world.

    The Chinese conquest and start of assimilation of both Tibet and Xinjiang predate that; although China have stepped up those efforts recently.

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