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  1. #541
    Because it creates an unbalanceable issue of range, causes difficulty with positioning, and gives the tank a built in "second life" that other classes have to give up a talent row or item slot to gain.

  2. #542
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Because it creates an unbalanceable issue of range, causes difficulty with positioning, and gives the tank a built in "second life" that other classes have to give up a talent row or item slot to gain.
    Not to mention is needs a "dumbing down" of the game by not requiring the majority of encounter mechanics to be altered in varying ways, but also the removal of some. The affixes Sanguine, Quaking, Storming and Volcanic will have to either be heavily altered or outright removed. Mythic+ also would have to have a much longer timer to accommodate the fact that the ranged tank doesn't have to stay in melee range all the time by having to constantly move.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #543
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    At this point, stop replying to this thread

    Let it sink

    Its obvious OP does not accept criticism or tries to get yet another "Mechanical class" topic
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Because it creates an unbalanceable issue of range, causes difficulty with positioning, and gives the tank a built in "second life" that other classes have to give up a talent row or item slot to gain.
    I keep saying this, but OP has shifted the goalposts so many times we are playing an entirely different sport in a different stadium in a different state at this stage. The biggest issue by far is positioning. Anyone who has played a tank on ANY difficulty will know this - it is most obvious in heroic/mythic raiding and higher keys, where almost any mistake will result in a wipe. The only way to over me this is for the tank to be in melee, actively taking the boss - this immediately kills the entire premise of a "ranged tank".

    This has been mentioned to @Teriz a dozen times by a dozen different people, and sadly, he flat out refuses to acknowledge it, and instead handwaved it away with "oh, you just merge".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not to mention is needs a "dumbing down" of the game by not requiring the majority of encounter mechanics to be altered in varying ways, but also the removal of some. The affixes Sanguine, Quaking, Storming and Volcanic will have to either be heavily altered or outright removed. Mythic+ also would have to have a much longer timer to accommodate the fact that the ranged tank doesn't have to stay in melee range all the time by having to constantly move.
    All valid points. M+ and PvP is where this really falls apart. Well, to be clear it is the same issue as all content, bit it is greatly increased due in part to the movement heavy, reactionary, fast paced nature of the content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  5. #545
    LMFAO HE GOT BANNED

    What an amazing thread glad I caught it at the apex. GG lads.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    If you can't handle criticism, then don't bother with creating threads that you know for certain will receive it. Act like an adult and accept that close to nobody will agree with you, this isn't your personal echo chamber.
    The most obvious proof of this is @Teriz stating very clearly that they will only talk about certain topics if everyone says OP is right about everything. Just think that through - imagine that scenario in a real life situation. Refusing to discuss certain aspects of a topic unless everyone around you says "you are right about everything, and we were all wrong to question you".
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlunie View Post
    LMFAO HE GOT BANNED

    What an amazing thread glad I caught it at the apex. GG lads.
    I am sure this will continue in one week. The whole range tanks falls apart in pvp and m plus

  8. #548
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by datguy81 View Post
    I am sure this will continue in one week. The whole range tanks falls apart in pvp and m plus
    He JUST came back from a week-long vacation. I think this time it might be a longer vacation. So I suppose unless anyone else wants to posit any ideas on how to make this concept work, I think the thread is likely over.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    He JUST came back from a week-long vacation. I think this time it might be a longer vacation. So I suppose unless anyone else wants to posit any ideas on how to make this concept work, I think the thread is likely over.
    I agree. Honestly I don’t think the class would work in pvp or whatever else

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    He JUST came back from a week-long vacation. I think this time it might be a longer vacation. So I suppose unless anyone else wants to posit any ideas on how to make this concept work, I think the thread is likely over.
    Ranged tanking simply does not work in wow, and that is because of one core fact - mobs in wow want to be in melee, and require tanks to be in melee. Are there exceptions? absolutely, ofc there are, but the overwhelming majority of bosses, be it a 5man, a raid, something like the Mage Tower - any scripted pve environment either follow the active target around attempting to get into melee, or, punish the group if the active threat target is not in melee.

    The second scenario plays out on encounters where the boss is stationary - Rag, that bridge boss, the gut boss in HFC etc etc etc. If those fights were the ONLY issue here, it would be fine. Even as a "range" tank I would be totally fine with sticking around in melee for the odd boss here and there - totally fine. But its the first issue that ruins this completely - bosses and all melee mobs in the game will always actively pursue the tank - and the only way to change this is to transfer that threat to something else - and THIS is where the entire premise falls apart.

    In the world, something as simple as a hunter pet, warlock pet, or even monk statue are acceptable. As soon as you move into a scripted boss encounter, positioning becomes the core gameplay of a tank - typically, if you fuck up some mitigation you will still survive - but you fuck up the bosses positioning and it very commonly = a wipe. Aimed the dragon the wrong way? Grats, you just roasted your raid (for example).

    The reality of this thread is that every single person seemed to have a solid grasp on these concepts, however @Teriz just seemed to lack that basic understanding of the core concepts of threat, tanking, and the vital importance of positioning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by datguy81 View Post
    I agree. Honestly I don’t think the class would work in pvp or whatever else
    There is literally zero chance this could be introduced in pvp without completely breaking pvp. It would either be a huge negative to the player themself - dropping your shield, then trying to run away only to drop dead because everyone zerged your completely helpless "shield", which transfers all dmg to you - think about it, they could LOS the PC while attacking the PC's shield - what a joke. Or, it would be far too OP, with multiple hp bars, unlimited teleports that are off the gcd (seriously, think that through).

    In fact, dont think it through, allow me to elaborate myself. OP had the "golden bullet" for everyones constant attacks on the movement / positioning issue - "just merge!" - even when people pointed out this would cost the player countless GCD's over a fight, OP had another solution! take it off the GCD. So now, in a pvp environment, you have someone who can spam abilities, and spam a teleport that is off the gcd, all while enjoying the other benifits of being a tank, and a range dps with multiple HP bars. Can you imagine that? I mean it cant have a long cd - would only be able to be 5-8 seconds or so at the most, because to make pve tanking work, you would need access to this ability at pretty much all times.

    We seem to all agree - bad idea, bad explanation, never ending "changes" to the concept to try and appease all the critics, and eventually a realization that it simply is not doable in the current game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by datguy81 View Post
    I am sure this will continue in one week. The whole range tanks falls apart in pvp and m plus
    This is the second for the same thread lol. Refusal to accept any form of criticism and have an intelligent discussion over and over wil cost u...

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Ranged tanking simply does not work in wow, and that is because of one core fact - mobs in wow want to be in melee, and require tanks to be in melee. Are there exceptions? absolutely, ofc there are, but the overwhelming majority of bosses, be it a 5man, a raid, something like the Mage Tower - any scripted pve environment either follow the active target around attempting to get into melee, or, punish the group if the active threat target is not in melee.
    For a simple reason: The game is built around tanks being melee. They'd have to completely redo the encounter design for the entire game to make this work. That might have worked for TBC, but now? No chance.

  13. #553
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Ranged tanking simply does not work in wow
    And that is a hard fact. The way the game is designed does not allow for a ranged tank, at all, without some heavy gimmicky features like "pet tanking" that negates the whole purpose of being ranged, since the tank would still be taking melee damage through the pet. Not to mention such feature would make the tanks completely OP, because Teriz said that the tank debuffs would be applied to the tank, not the pet. So, as I explained before, "damage feedback" is done by the class ability that does the damage redirection, so if the tank has a debuff that increases damage taken by one of the boss' abilities, like the Council of Blood's Evasive Lunge and Duelist's Riposte. Since the "ranged" tank would not be taking damage from those abilities directly, but actually will be taking damage from the ability that does the redirect, that means this is a mechanic the "ranged" tank can fully ignore, because the tank would be taking damage from those abilities, but since it doesn't get the debuff, it doesn't get extra damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I didn't want to bump this thread, but there's something I feel I have to say. @Teriz, if you're reading this while on vacation, I'd like you to think about this and keep this mind:

    The underlying problem I'm seeing here is that you get a concept on your mind that you like and, for the most part, you don't really try to change your concept to fit into how the game works. Instead, you either try to change the game to fit how your concept works, or you just ignore how the game would have to be changed to fit your concept.

    And then, when you do try to change your concept to fit into the game, your changes often bring more problems than solutions. For example, your 'pet tanking' idea: for it to work, your pet will have to NOT be immune to AE damage. And if your pet is not immune to AE damage, don't you think your tank would be at a high disadvantage in fights where there's AE damage? Because then your tank would be taking damage from the AE itself, and then AGAIN from the feedback of your pet taking the AE damage. So technically it would take double damage from AEs?

    It seems to me you're only concerned in making your concept sound cool, with little care as to making it actually work within the game. And that's fine. You're not the only one that does that. But the difference I'm seeing from others who do the same, is that not only you don't admit to it, but you fight tooth and nail that your concept fits into the game as-is. You openly stated that you refuse to further discuss your concept unless people agree with you. And you get incredibly combative when people don't agree with you.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-03-21 at 03:14 PM.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I keep saying this, but OP has shifted the goalposts so many times we are playing an entirely different sport in a different stadium in a different state at this stage. The biggest issue by far is positioning. Anyone who has played a tank on ANY difficulty will know this - it is most obvious in heroic/mythic raiding and higher keys, where almost any mistake will result in a wipe. The only way to over me this is for the tank to be in melee, actively taking the boss - this immediately kills the entire premise of a "ranged tank".

    This has been mentioned to @Teriz a dozen times by a dozen different people, and sadly, he flat out refuses to acknowledge it, and instead handwaved it away with "oh, you just merge".

    - - - Updated - - -



    All valid points. M+ and PvP is where this really falls apart. Well, to be clear it is the same issue as all content, bit it is greatly increased due in part to the movement heavy, reactionary, fast paced nature of the content.
    Even with a merge mechanic, you now create the issue where instantly the tank is out of melee range, and most bosses don't run around like trash mobs, they just turn and hit the nearest target/highest on threat/other tank/etc... If this were OG wow still, sure I think a ranged tank could work, we had a few instances of Pet tanking through TBC. But we are so so far down a path of encounters being designed around specific premises of tank/healer/dps that completely changing a constant for Tanks (always being in melee range) and potentially exposing them to unintended mechanics (standing in ranged mechanics)... well I don't have to explain to you the issues you already see them.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And that is a hard fact. The way the game is designed does not allow for a ranged tank, at all, without some heavy gimmicky features like "pet tanking" that negates the whole purpose of being ranged, since the tank would still be taking melee damage through the pet. Not to mention such feature would make the tanks completely OP, because Teriz said that the tank debuffs would be applied to the tank, not the pet. So, as I explained before, "damage feedback" is done by the class ability that does the damage redirection, so if the tank has a debuff that increases damage taken by one of the boss' abilities, like the Council of Blood's Evasive Lunge and Duelist's Riposte. Since the "ranged" tank would not be taking damage from those abilities directly, but actually will be taking damage from the ability that does the redirect, that means this is a mechanic the "ranged" tank can fully ignore, because the tank would be taking damage from those abilities, but since it doesn't get the debuff, it doesn't get extra damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I didn't want to bump this thread, but there's something I feel I have to say. @Teriz, if you're reading this while on vacation, I'd like you to think about this and keep this mind:

    The underlying problem I'm seeing here is that you get a concept on your mind that you like and, for the most part, you don't really try to change your concept to fit into how the game works. Instead, you either try to change the game to fit how your concept works, or you just ignore how the game would have to be changed to fit your concept.

    And then, when you do try to change your concept to fit into the game, your changes often bring more problems than solutions. For example, your 'pet tanking' idea: for it to work, your pet will have to NOT be immune to AE damage. And if your pet is not immune to AE damage, don't you think your tank would be at a high disadvantage in fights where there's AE damage? Because then your tank would be taking damage from the AE itself, and then AGAIN from the feedback of your pet taking the AE damage. So technically it would take double damage from AEs?

    It seems to me you're only concerned in making your concept sound cool, with little care as to making it actually work within the game. And that's fine. You're not the only one that does that. But the difference I'm seeing from others who do the same, is that not only you don't admit to it, but you fight tooth and nail that your concept fits into the game as-is. You openly stated that you refuse to further discuss your concept unless people agree with you. And you get incredibly combative when people don't agree with you.
    I would argue the problem is not really understanding how the game and this playstyle in particular, especially on a higher level of play works. As somebody who changed from healer to Tank over BfA and who fell in love with that role, I not only can't see a ranged tank working well, I can't see it being viable without being OP and meta defining. Either it trivializes tanking to a point where it is a must have if you want to push higher level content or it is just gargabe and not viable. Especially with the current kite meta, a ranged tank would be horrible and to make it desirable, Blizz probably would have to push this form of meta play even further, which nobody wants nor enjoys. For me personally, standing in the mobs and having control over their movement is part of the appeal of tank

    I also think there is an element of selfishness in this idea. As far as I've seen, said user always proposes and acts rather entitled to ideas that he wants for himself and which would pander to solely him, instead of what would be good for the game or enjoyable for most people.

  16. #556
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    I would argue the problem is not really understanding how the game and this playstyle in particular, especially on a higher level of play works. As somebody who changed from healer to Tank over BfA and who fell in love with that role, I not only can't see a ranged tank working well, I can't see it being viable without being OP and meta defining. Either it trivializes tanking to a point where it is a must have if you want to push higher level content or it is just gargabe and not viable. Especially with the current kite meta, a ranged tank would be horrible and to make it desirable, Blizz probably would have to push this form of meta play even further, which nobody wants nor enjoys. For me personally, standing in the mobs and having control over their movement is part of the appeal of tank
    I get where you're coming from. I've tanked from Wrath to mid-Mop, and then off-tanked the second half of Legion and first half of BfA. Which is precisely why I kept talking about all the issues tanks have to face: line of sight, movement, positioning, worrying about mechanics, etc. But the way Teriz speaks and how he tries to "fix" his concept makes me think that Teriz either has never tanked a single day in his life, participated in high-level keys/raids, or even understand how the game works. Or any combination of the three. Because the flaws in his concept are glaring to anyone with even an inkling about the issues tank players have to worry about on a near constant basis while tanking, especially when said flaws imply giving the tanks even MORE to worry about for no benefit.

    And on the topic of 'benefits', I'll say this again: "being a new thing" is not a benefit. This isn't aimed toward you, though. I'm just repeating this for good measure.

    I also think there is an element of selfishness in this idea. As far as I've seen, said user always proposes and acts rather entitled to ideas that he wants for himself and which would pander to solely him, instead of what would be good for the game or enjoyable for most people.
    That's pretty much my take, as well: changing the game to fit his ideas, instead of changing his ideas to fit the game.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I get where you're coming from. I've tanked from Wrath to mid-Mop, and then off-tanked the second half of Legion and first half of BfA. Which is precisely why I kept talking about all the issues tanks have to face: line of sight, movement, positioning, worrying about mechanics, etc. But the way Teriz speaks and how he tries to "fix" his concept makes me think that Teriz either has never tanked a single day in his life, participated in high-level keys/raids, or even understand how the game works. Or any combination of the three. Because the flaws in his concept are glaring to anyone with even an inkling about the issues tank players have to worry about on a near constant basis while tanking, especially when said flaws imply giving the tanks even MORE to worry about for no benefit.

    And on the topic of 'benefits', I'll say this again: "being a new thing" is not a benefit. This isn't aimed toward you, though. I'm just repeating this for good measure.
    Yeah, thats absolutely the perception I also have. Everyone who plays tanks regularily would know how problematic such a gameplay would be and also how fundamentally clunky and strange it would feel. I would also say that Tanks are generally not in a bad spot in WoW, when it comes to their gameplay (ignoring issues like balance and the current kite-meta). Tanks feel very distinct, every class has a different dps rotation, different cooldowns, different ressource management and different styles of active mitigation. Even DHs and DKs, who both utilize self-heal as a means to deal with damage feel different from each other. Tanks are in a great spot when it comes to playstyles and diversity in this game and I think innovation should come with new means of active mitigation, though I can see how this will be hard with future classes and similar to DHs, Blizz will probably mix different styles together instead.

    That's pretty much my take, as well: changing the game to fit his ideas, instead of changing his ideas to fit the game.
    I also could see that with the Tinker threads and ideas how a playable tinker, especially a tank, should look like. It always feels like a class that is designed to allow players to just play at the highest level without appropriate skill, just through sheer OPness.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And on the topic of 'benefits', I'll say this again: "being a new thing" is not a benefit. This isn't aimed toward you, though. I'm just repeating this for good measure.
    Yeah I didnt want to harp on and on about this, however something being "different" and "new" are NOT benefits - and to think they are is EXTREMELY short sighted. Something is only "new" for a few weeks in Beta, and being different in of itself is not a benefit - being unique in a positive way - Stagger for example - is a benefit and something cool about a BRM.

    This is one thing that frustrates me about certain individuals - they use "overlap" as a main reason not to introduce class X and Y, but use similarities with other specs as a "proof of concept" for the concepts they like. Im actually totally fine with some overlap - some examples - on paper, a Rogue plays quite similar to a Monk and a Feral - builders and spenders, combo points. In practice, they play very differently, and its those differences that make the classes feel unique and special.

    Being different for the sake of being different is not a positive thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

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