Should Rewards Reflect Your Content ?

[schwarzkopf]

problem with that is it would be impossible to police.

How so - you just give people the same reward for the same world content effort as those in Mythic raids get for their effort.

Pretty simple.

[MrLachyG]

How so - you just give people the same reward for the same world content effort as those in Mythic raids get for their effort.

Pretty simple.

how do you know someone is being carried through a mythic raid though? how do you measure it? by their dps? how often they die?

[Argorwal]

This is the correct answer. However effort could either mean doing something really hard or something really time consuming. There should always be two paths that both reach the same point.

For example in the past you could raid heroic (then called normal) and get your gear really quick or you could do daily heroics to cap Valor points and buy gear of equal quality.
One method was fast and hard, the other was slow and easy but the end results were roughly the same.
Options are key.

Except valor gear at the quality was limited to 3-4 slots not all 16.

[ClassicPeon]

How so - you just give people the same reward for the same world content effort as those in Mythic raids get for their effort.

Pretty simple.

Its simple but its not logical.

[Argorwal]

My raid is 9/10 heroic. I cannot talk our one healer into running M+10 (highest I've been able to get is a +8), because she says it's too hard. There are eight dungeons, versus one raid, with trash that actually matters, and fifteen affixes. That's a lot more to learn, and it changes weekly based on what keys we have and the affixes for the week. Compared to raid, where there are a total of ten fights to learn, M+ asks more of a person on the learning front.

I think it's also easier to carry someone in a raid than it is in M+. I tank our raid, and I out DPS some of the DPS players. When that happens in a M+, we typically don't time them. That being said, it's typically easier to manage fewer people, so in terms of the organizational effort, M+ seems a lot easier to me.

I play with a “consistent PuG” and we are only 8/10 HC after a few months, and only killed Sludgefist once.

After the raid we break up and smash 11-14 keys real quick to get vault loot.

So my anecdotal experience is heroic CN, especially SLG and Sire, are much harder than mythic+.

But, I’m also fine with the mythic+ reward structure, since it’s easy and accessibility is its pro and its con is that there is no catchup since it’s primary gearing is the vault that is limited to 1 item per week and there is a large loot table so it’s very prone to RNG.

[Accendor]

Because blizzard wants to make M+ a viable gearing alternative, but if you could farm 226 endlessly you'd never do any other content for gearing

We have seen in legion and bfa that this is not true

[Argorwal]

We have seen in legion and bfa that this is not true

You had to really grind RNG on RNG to get mythic level in an end of dungeon run in Legion and BFA. And it was pretty vocal feedback that relying on RNG on RNG isn’t fun for most people.

Legion required a 20 item level titanforge to get an end of dungeon item to equal a mythic raid item.

BFA required a 15 item level titanforge for seasons 1-3, and season 4 didn’t have titanforging.

[chiddie]

honestly im not surprised.

i laught every time someone tell how "lol-easy" +10 is - for majority of playerbase its ultra hardcore mode.

majority of people were more then happy with runing like +5 or +6 and fishing for TF.

now all those peopel are gone and playing somethign else because no game could ever survive catering only to hardcores.

M+ is hard because of people, not because of dungeons tuning.

Playing a healer makes you see this quite clearly.

People don’t know how to play, they just pretend to stand immobile while pewpewing and someone has to keep them up forever.

[Electric Lighter]

I would rather they did away with the vault and just reverted the loot system to what it was just with warforged/titanforged removed.

I hate how every time blizzard does something even slightly positive (aka letting us have choices in the chest) it comes with some horrible monkey paw tier curse like making nothing drop.

Content can't and shouldn't be designed to last forever (maybe pvp can there is an argument there) instead it should bloody well end. I've been constantly annoyed by how desperate blizzard seems to be to stretch out content in recent expansions. It feels like wow is devolving more and more into a korean style grind mmo.

[Temp name]

We have seen in legion and bfa that this is not true

The difference was in Legion and BfA you had to do 20+ dungeons to get a single piece of gear because of titan forging. And even with that limitation, people were still farming specific dungeons over and over and over again for trinkets. So yes, people were doing dungeons for gearing and ignoring every other avenue of getting gear in those slots.

In SL you have to do 2-3 (on average) for each item, and if those were guaranteed 226? Why even bother with raids at that point, or pvp, since neither of those are infinitely farmable

[Electric Lighter]

The difference was in Legion and BfA you had to do 20+ dungeons to get a single piece of gear because of titan forging. And even with that limitation, people were still farming specific dungeons over and over and over again for trinkets. So yes, people were doing dungeons for gearing and ignoring every other avenue of getting gear in those slots.

In SL you have to do 2-3 (on average) for each item, and if those were guaranteed 226? Why even bother with raids at that point, or pvp, since neither of those are infinitely farmable

I am just going to come out and say it but no you do not do 2-3 dungeons for a specific drop in sl baring absurd luck. Assuming you time the key and are not pushing an 18. That is 2 pieces of loot for 5 people. There is a decent chance you won't even get loot in three runs much less get the one item out of roughly 11 that can drop for your class.

Sure people farmed specific trinkets in bfa and legion but you know the big difference your trying to brush over is? Even if they didnt get the titanforged drop they still got a trinket of very similar output to use..

[Temp name]

I am just going to come out and say it but no you do not do 2-3 dungeons for a specific drop in sl baring absurd luck. Assuming you time the key and are not pushing an 18. That is 2 pieces of loot for 5 people. There is a decent chance you won't even get loot in three runs much less get the one item out of roughly 11 that can drop for your class.

Sure people farmed specific trinkets in bfa and legion but you know the big difference your trying to brush over is? Even if they didnt get the titanforged drop they still got a trinket of very similar output to use..

I meant 2-3 dungeons for a generic item.
Getting a specific item is ~4% chance (10 items on the loot table, 40% chance to get loot).

Point still stands, that to get a max ilvl item in Legion/BfA you were looking at an order of magnitude or more dungeons than in SL. Same for specific items, just even more wild RNG swings, since you were stacking more layers of RNG on top of each other.

[munkeyinorbit]

uhhh what? Mythic+ rewards are absolute garbage right now even with being able to use valor to upgrade them

Still the easiest way for 95% of the population to get 226. Mythic + shouldn't be offering gear this high. If anything it should be capped at 213 at the vault.

[Nnyco]

M+ needed a fix. The 210 loot became almost instantly useless and an upgrade system was in order.

Still the easiest way for 95% of the population to get 226. Mythic + shouldn't be offering gear this high. If anything it should be capped at 213 at the vault.

Then we should also implement that you only get mythic loot from raid in vault when you down sire.

[Temp name]

Still the easiest way for 95% of the population to get 226. Mythic + shouldn't be offering gear this high. If anything it should be capped at 213 at the vault.

The first couple of mythic bosses are easier than an m+14/15

[erifwodahs]

Dungeons can be carried by one good player. Have a good tank who calls the shots and that's good enough. In raids and especially in Nathria a single mistake by one player can wipe you, since there are many encounters with personal responsibility.

Raids universally need more skilled players than m+. That's why I get OP's question. To counter that, M+ drops below heroic gear, which means raids are shortterm the better gear source. Longterm however the weekly upgrade you get from makes you character stronger than would be possible via raids. I simply hoped that valor would also apply to raids, but I guess Blizzard has other plans.

Dungeons can't be carried by one good player, even if you have someone who calls shots, people have to understand what they mean. Do you think tank can manage to coordinate everyones CDs and interrups ant other CCs?
KSM is harder than HC castle for sure. I agree, that it is odd, that raiders don't get to upgrade their HC items tho. But m+ by nature will always be harder content because of scaling.

To OP just failed a +19 DoS, some overlapping mechanics just wiped us, on trash pull, but even if we timed it, we would have not gotten items above 210. So would you agree that for these kind of keys we should get above 220+? Because throughput requirements on those fights are way lower than and they still drop 220. I know valor is a thing now, but still, would you agree that these kind of keys should reward something better?

- - - Updated - - -

I play with a “consistent PuG” and we are only 8/10 HC after a few months, and only killed Sludgefist once.

After the raid we break up and smash 11-14 keys real quick to get vault loot.

I mean... Do you time 14s?
Raid is defo easier than KSM. By that I mean, you can do raid if you can do mechanics, in M+ you need throughput to make it in time.

[Shelly]

You should've said that you are being sarcastic, you cant seriously think that the later part of the raid is anything comparable to a meme +10, you just cant.

edit: to OP, yes rewards should reflect the content you do and how good you are, its basic in every rpg that the greater deeds you do, the better the rewards you get, but wow community nowadays wants to change this to fit their narrative, guess they are new to the rpg genre xd

Yes I can. Raids carry more people more efficiently than M+. As such M+ is the more difficult content. It's not that hard to wrap your head around.

[GreenJesus]

This is the correct answer. However effort could either mean doing something really hard or something really time consuming. There should always be two paths that both reach the same point.

For example in the past you could raid heroic (then called normal) and get your gear really quick or you could do daily heroics to cap Valor points and buy gear of equal quality.
One method was fast and hard, the other was slow and easy but the end results were roughly the same.
Options are key.

The game would be dead if people felt forced to grind daily quests again to do actual content. Shadowlands is the best expansion in a long time since dailies are almost strictly for cosmetics and gold now. I can just focus on group content and not waste time grinding in content I one shot mindlessly.

[Shiekyerbooty]

Explain what you mean when you say m+ rewards are boosted. I disagree with the premise of your argument.

Sure, I'll give you the same example I've posted in other threads

A person can do four +5 mythics and have two 210 ilvl rewards to choose from in their great vault

210 ilvl is better than normal raid quality gear, it's on par with heroic raid gear

Yet, +5's are piss easy, you can basically ignore most of the mechanics, and they take 15-30 minutes

There is no way anyone deserves raid quality gear from doing +5's

[LordVargK]

Yes I can. Raids carry more people more efficiently than M+. As such M+ is the more difficult content. It's not that hard to wrap your head around.

That doesn't make any sense. At all.