The Machismo discussion from the Biden/Haris thread so he can stop derailing it.

[Endus]

The number wasn't arbitrary. It was what minimum wage would have been at the time if it had kept pace with inflation and productivity increases since around 1968 or the golden age of capitalism.

$15 was an insufficient placeholder when they first came up with it. It's just the latest in the repeated failure of minimum wage legislation in the USA, which exists to maintain and continue a level of exploitation and human suffering, and enrich the already-wealthy oligarchs of society. It's a position they were forced to accept when their predations went even more unchecked, through the Industrial Revolution, leading to perhaps the greatest mass excesses of mass human exploitation at the society-wide level that the planet has ever seen, anywhere or anywhen.

And I say "society-wide" because I want to carefully distinguish from institutions like slavery (which is part of the discussion, just a separate part from this particular point) where said exploitation was greater, but it was limited to a particular sub group rather than the working class in its entirety.

To bring this back to the minimum-wage discussion, there needs to be two basic concepts established.

1> A minimum living wage. Anything short of this figure means you are arguing for employers to pay staff less than they are worth, less than the basic maintenance of that individual, which thus creates and maintains human suffering as an implicit value that your society supports and maintains, by deliberate design. $15 didn't hit this mark even when it was first being brought up; it's nearly a decade of inflation out of date from where it did originate. That people are so focused on that particular figure is . . . a problem. It isn't a magic number. It's just "better than fucking $7.25".

2> Tie the minimum wage to cost-of-living indices, so that it's automatically updated on at least a yearly basis. That prevents any need to continue making adjusting it for basic inflation a frigging political debate, when it shouldn't be, and the only reason to oppose an inflationary bump on the minimum wage is, again, a desire to foster human suffering so that the wealthy can be even more wealthy than they already are. There is no other reason for doing so. That's it; misanthropic desire to foster human suffering.

I'd go even further and argue that a basic income is an even "better" solution to the same problems, providing that living baseless to all members of society, rather than just workers (and settles all arguments about how many kids and workers should be presumed in establishing what a "living wage" amounts to).

Neither of which are really the main issue. Cost of living should be driver behind what was intended to be a living wage.

If you're not tying it to cost-of-living and you're not making it a living wage, your position is inherently about creating and/or fostering human suffering for the sake of profit. I understand why the wealthy oligarchs who lack any empathy for their fellow man are against it; naked self-interest is a disgusting motive, but one that's rational if unethical. But anyone who isn't already rich? You're being exploited, too. Not sure why you think your own exploitation and suffering is something to defend and protect. Seems really, really dumb and without any possible explanation that'll hold up to any scrutiny.

[Machismo]

Yep. Inflation isn’t the primary factor in such a discussion. Care to address the cost of living?

Care to provide the exact increase in cost of living over time since 1938, and how it's broken down?

At least you're not pushing it to change based on productivity...

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I'm sure when Biden signs on 15 you'll jump for joy.

I called for way more, remember.

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If $15 is too high why not $0?

Some countries do just fine with no minimum wage.

I'm all for it.

[Endus]

Not at all, this is showing how the argument is a bust.

If they claim that $15 is better, then why not more? if the claim is that increasing the minimum wage is actually a huge benefit, then why stop?

If you're about to pull the "why not $50? Why not $100? Why not $10,000/hour?" bullshit, I'll just point out that it's a fallacious argument.

The argument is not "increasing the minimum wage arbitrarily is always a good thing". That's the straw man the bullshit attacks.

The argument is "the minimum wage should provide a sufficient wage to support a worker and their family by working a full-time job, because the alternative to reaching that wage level or requiring more labour necessarily mandates that the worker suffer needlessly, for the sake of profits for the wealthy".

Once you're addressing that argument, the endless expansion horseshit counter doesn't make a lick of sense. But that's why folks like yourself use it; it's a lot easier to lie about what people are saying than to actually address their position honestly.

[Shadowferal]

I think if being dishonest about a position is now the tactic...then we're done here.

[Yadryonych]

Imagine someone who has to do a qualified and demanding job to earn $15 per hour but then a cart pusher suddenly earns the same. Wouldn't he ask for a rise? Wouldn't basically everyone? Wouldn't it result in an inflation that eliminates the gain?

[Machismo]

If you're about to pull the "why not $50? Why not $100? Why not $10,000/hour?" bullshit, I'll just point out that it's a fallacious argument.

The argument is not "increasing the minimum wage arbitrarily is always a good thing". That's the straw man the bullshit attacks.

The argument is "the minimum wage should provide a sufficient wage to support a worker and their family by working a full-time job, because the alternative to reaching that wage level or requiring more labour necessarily mandates that the worker suffer needlessly, for the sake of profits for the wealthy".

Once you're addressing that argument, the endless expansion horseshit counter doesn't make a lick of sense. But that's why folks like yourself use it; it's a lot easier to lie about what people are saying than to actually address their position honestly.

They are arguing that increasing it is beneficial, and I'm trying to find out exactly when it stops being beneficial. So, we've clearly hammered out that it's somewhere between $15 and $100 in their eyes, wo we're making progress.

The argument changes depending on who is making it, which is a problem. the $15 was never based on reality, nor does it have any historical justification. it's completely fucking arbitrary.

That's my point.

[Endus]

Some countries do just fine with no minimum wage.

I'm all for it.

The 5 countries in the developed world that do without a minimum wage have deep reliance on trade unions that all workers are automatically enrolled in and which have much stronger legal support than they do in the USA; collective bargaining creates industry-specific minimum wages through each union and essentially no sectors are unprotected by such a union.

https://www.investopedia.com/article...%20Switzerland.

And you've railed strongly against unions having such legal support.

[Shadowferal]

Imagine someone who has to do a qualified and demanding job to earn $15 per hour but then a cart pusher suddenly earns the same. Wouldn't he ask for a rise? Wouldn't basically everyone? Wouldn't it result in an inflation that eliminates the gain?

Your qualified person is underpaid to begin with and can find a better paying one.

[Machismo]

I think if being dishonest about a position is now the tactic...then we're done here.

It's not dishonest at all, I'm trying to hold people accountable for the bullshit they want to force onto others.

Throwing people's arguments back in their faces is perfectly justified.

[Endus]

They are arguing that increasing it is beneficial, and I'm trying to find out exactly when it stops being beneficial.

And doing so dishonestly. As I just pointed out. You aren't "just asking questions", you're fundamentally and purposefully lying about what their argument is. And you know it, even if you won't admit it.

[Machismo]

The 5 countries that do without a minimum wage have deep reliance on trade unions that all workers are automatically enrolled in and which have much stronger legal support than they do in the USA; collective bargaining creates industry-specific minimum wages through each union and essentially no sectors are unprotected by such a union.

https://www.investopedia.com/article...%20Switzerland.

And you've railed strongly against unions having such legal support.

I'm all for trade unions, I love unions.

[PhaelixWW]

And $15 is far higher than at any point since a minimum wage was created, based on inflation.

Not as a percentage of GDP, it's not. Both GDP per capita and inflation increases have vastly outpaced median income increases.

if they claim that $15 is better, then why not more?

You're literally ignoring everyone telling you why.

[Machismo]

And doing so dishonestly. As I just pointed out. You aren't "just asking questions", you're fundamentally and purposefully lying about what their argument is. And you know it, even if you won't admit it.

I'm pointing to the utter absurdity of trying to force arbitrary things onto people.

meanwhile, $15 was a talking point that became a rallying cry... and isn't actually based on real data.

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Not as a percentage of GDP, it's not. Both GDP per capita and inflation increases have vastly outpaced median income increases.





You're literally ignoring everyone telling you why.

Why should we base it on GDP? And if so, then that would mean basing it on the state and local level.

So, any nationwide blanket is also pointless.

See?

People aren't telling me why, they are running away from it. $15 is arbitrary, so let's use another arbitrary number.

[Themius]

I was wondering whether this topic is even kosher, after reading through the replies... Machismo absolutely needs his own thread. This can basically be a "libertarian" thread.

[Shadowferal]

It's not dishonest at all, I'm trying to hold people accountable for the bullshit they want to force onto others.
Throwing people's arguments back in their faces is perfectly justified.

You're bullshitting. You refuse to stay within the parameters of the argument because you know you can't win.

[beanman12345]

guy trying to us reductio ad absurdum but really just falling into the strawman trap.

[Machismo]

guy trying to us reductio ad absurdum but really just falling into the strawman trap.

Nope, calling out arbitrary numbers like $15 an hour.

Many consider $15 an hour to be an absurd minimum wage.

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You're bullshitting. You refuse to stay within the parameters of the argument because you know you can't win.

$15 is entirely arbitrary, that's the point.

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I was wondering whether this topic is even kosher, after reading through the replies... Machismo absolutely needs his own thread. This can basically be a "libertarian" thread.

This isn't really about libertarianism.

[Shadowferal]

That depends entirely on the job market. I’ve seen plenty of overqualified people who were forced to sell shit to make ends meet.

A fair point unless the min wage was the same. Then the one meeting the demands of the job may be able to find a less demanding job for the same pay...or so the person could say to his/her employer.

[Santti]

At this point, I just think he sees governing and policy as some sort of all-or-nothing kind of deal. There is no nuance, no compromises. It's either 0%, or 100%. Black or white.

[Shadowferal]

$15 is entirely arbitrary, that's the point.

A point you can't seem to argue against.