{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[TirielWoW]

The Banker also says that before the Snap and the Blip it wouldn't have been a problem. There are rules that take that situation into account...it's just that the rules are there to protect the bank...they just don't favour the Wilson's.

The first thing anyone walking into a bank should understand is that the rules are set to protect the bank, not you. They are there to make a profit, and if they can help you and make a profit, great, but otherwise they aren't interested in helping you.

Before the Snap and the Blip it wouldn't have been a problem because Sam would have had a consistent salary, or his sister wouldn't have taken out the loans she took out (we don't know where, we assume it's not that bank, but there's no way to really tell - I'm guessing they weren't from the bank, however, because of the way Sam refers to them).

Honestly, trying to figure out how they would have handled all of those accounts when the people dusted is giving me nightmares lol.

[Twdft]

Solid episode, I really liked it.

What I don't get though is how The Falcon doesn't have enough money for the business. He runs around with expensive equipment, hell just refueling that thing after the mission would probably cost more than 100x what they needed to loan. It's nice to acknowledge real world problems in the show though.

[PACOX]

Solid episode, I really liked it.

What I don't get though is how The Falcon doesn't have enough money for the business. He runs around with expensive equipment, hell just refueling that thing after the mission would probably cost more than 100x what they needed to loan. It's nice to acknowledge real world problems in the show though.

Its not his equipment. He was basically a mercenary, and that kind of dried up after Civil War when he sided with Captain America. Even before that Steve probably made sure he was financially taken care of and Tony was making sure everyone was eating good. Falcon never actually had a steady wage since food and housing were probably taken care of.

5 years after Infinity War, Steve is out, Tony is gone, Fury is in pace. The people people who who looked out for him are gone and suddenly he realizes he didn't actually make his own money nor really had time to think about it.

Its not terribly uncommon for someone to suddenly find themselves in a weird financial situation if there money didn't come from a formal paycheck but out of someone's pocket or under the table. Like an assistant/entourage or maybe some part of a private work crew.

[Spike`]

Sorry dont buy it

if he's doing missions for the government he has income or he would risk is life for free?

Even if you are a hero and do it for the good will you would still need to accept money for house, eating, etc life

its dumb story, would make more sense if it was the winter soldier doing this story, but falcon?

[formerShandalay]

Racism in banking is rarely deliberate or overt. It mostly manifests as what we saw here - a banker who didn't care enough to actually go the extra mile to make something work for this family. It's people just not doing their jobs, or a system where the criteria to get a loan is formulated in such a manner that statistically, women and minorities have a more difficult time getting loans. It's a real thing - I worked in banking until last July. It's absolutely a real, actual issue, and every time I see it, I get angry because i know what should have been done because I was actually trained on what we're supposed to be doing, if that makes sense?

<snip>

That makes sense and I do think that is what they are going for here. That things are not done openly, sometimes not even actually ... racist on purpose, if that makes sense?... just without the same amount of consideration that maybe people would give someone else. Thoughtlessness, not caring enough to look into their own bias, maybe. And behind the scenes ulterior motives, as always, but those people usually don't sit at a desk.
And I think they are going a good job with hinting at it and not really showing it, just like it would be in real life. You only see it, if you are in the situation (or cared enough to look into it), but everybody else is just saying 'huh? Nah.' and you can't even really blame them, unless stuff is done really, really blatantly and openly.

Sorry dont buy it

if he's doing missions for the government he has income or he would risk is life for free?

Even if you are a hero and do it for the good will you would still need to accept money for house, eating, etc life

its dumb story, would make more sense if it was the winter soldier doing this story, but falcon?

He does have income, he even points that out to the banker. He is on government contracts, but only since he came back, of course. And that's not good enough to get a loan there.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

The first thing anyone walking into a bank should understand is that the rules are set to protect the bank, not you. They are there to make a profit, and if they can help you and make a profit, great, but otherwise they aren't interested in helping you.

Before the Snap and the Blip it wouldn't have been a problem because Sam would have had a consistent salary, or his sister wouldn't have taken out the loans she took out (we don't know where, we assume it's not that bank, but there's no way to really tell - I'm guessing they weren't from the bank, however, because of the way Sam refers to them).

Honestly, trying to figure out how they would have handled all of those accounts when the people dusted is giving me nightmares lol.

Yeah, that's exactly the point. Banks protect themselves. And situations like the Snap and Blip would have really caused a lot of financial chaos.

It might be nice if at some point Marvel released some kind of series or something that kinda showcases exactly what happened to the world after the Snap. All we really get from Endgame is that 5 years later... a new normal is starting to set in...but things are still pretty rough.

[The Cheat]

That hasn't really been a thing since the Russo's took over from Whedon. Don't know what kind of stick has been lodged up your ass, but you might want to look into getting it removed. I can't imagine it's very comfortable.

I'd wager this isn't anything to do with the directors and more to do with how the tone starting with Infinity War is immediately "universe-spanning imminent catastrophe". The stakes in The Avengers and Age of Ultron (up until the latter's end, anyways) didn't start out nearly as serious. IW and Endgame still had some subtle quips that make me believe character personalities will still remain intact at their core assuming the MCU world ever finds a sense of "normalcy". This is all said from a perspective of someone who appreciates all the light-hearted bits. I think most of the movies have done a good job of weaving serious and silly pretty appropriately.

I think this show will feature some of the same scattered throughout. Already enjoyed the first episode.

[cyberglum]

I'm sure the Stark Foundation or someone in Wakanda could've done Sam a solid.

I understand wanting to show the impact of the Snap and the Returners but the Banking scene did feel a bit clunky. It's blindly obvious Sam is well connected, plus he did help save the Universe.

If it was something like the whole fishing community under threat by some big contractor or whatever, it would have got the point across (Sam championing the communities cause as a celeb etc). Something bigger than Sam and his families own concerns. I think it would have work better.

[Endus]

I'm sure the Stark Foundation or someone in Wakanda could've done Sam a solid.

I understand wanting to show the impact of the Snap and the Returners but the Banking scene did feel a bit clunky. It's blindly obvious Sam is well connected, plus he did help save the Universe.

If it was something like the whole fishing community under threat by some big contractor or whatever, it would have got the point across (Sam championing the communities cause as a celeb etc). Something bigger than Sam and his families own concerns. I think it would have work better.

While we don't have full details, a few points really stand out against Sam's position against the bank.

1> He's got government contracts, but he's an independent operator, and he's doing incredibly dangerous work where he could easily be killed on any given mission. And if that happened, the contracts go *poof*. The bank can't take out a mortgage-size loan on Sam's income (since his family business hasn't been making money) when that paycheck could go *poof* at any moment.

2> This is super clear because Sam's paychecks did go *poof*, for five years.

3> The bank's also dealing with the chaos of having closed out half its clientele's accounts and shifted investments around to account for that, and five years of subsequent business, and then having to deal with paying back to those clients who've been un-Snapped all of a sudden. They'd be super leery of taking anything risky, because they're probably on pretty shaky financial grounds right now.

Even outside the possibility of racism, the bank's not wrong, here. The era the MCU is in at the time of the show is not the same as it was 6 years back before all this happened, and government contracts covering a mercenary solo operator on high-risk missions aren't the reliable income stream that most government contracts might have been before the original Snap.

[s_bushido]

I'd wager this isn't anything to do with the directors and more to do with how the tone starting with Infinity War is immediately "universe-spanning imminent catastrophe".

Nah, it's definitely a bit of both. If Whedon is known for anything it's the borderline annoying dialogue. That stuff worked fine for his own characters (Buffy, Angel, Firefly) but it got old extremely fast once he was putting it in other characters' mouths. Especially Batman...

[cyberglum]

Even outside the possibility of racism, the bank's not wrong, here. The era the MCU is in at the time of the show is not the same as it was 6 years back before all this happened, and government contracts covering a mercenary solo operator on high-risk missions aren't the reliable income stream that most government contracts might have been before the original Snap.

Tbh I didn't see anything racist in the scene at all. I don't know what's got peoples knickers in a twist. I just felt the dilemma didn't hold water. Regardless of the worlds situation there'd be enough money and enough good will from the people Sam is connected too to fix his situation pretty easily, least in my opinion.

[Endus]

Tbh I didn't see anything racist in the scene at all. I don't know what's got peoples knickers in a twist.

Two centuries of black Americans being fucked over by banks in the United States with pretty thorough regularity.

Pretending history doesn't exist isn't a good look. And no, "it's a comic book universe, not ours" doesn't count, because they have the same history to a certain point where it diverges.

I just felt the dilemma didn't hold water. Regardless of the worlds situation there'd be enough money and enough good will from the people Sam is connected too to fix his situation pretty easily, least in my opinion.

I feel you don't understand how things like this work.

He can't get money from Wakanda. He's not Wakandan. He barely has a working relationship with anyone from Wakanda.
He can't get money from Stark. Stark died.
He can't get money from the Avengers Initiative. Or rather, he already is; those government contracts.

Who are you expecting to give him what's likely at least a million dollars? They aren't asking for peanuts, here. That wasn't a small ship, and it needed a LOT of work and improvement to be able to generate a profit.

[cyberglum]

Two centuries of black Americans being fucked over by banks in the United States with pretty thorough regularity.

Pretending history doesn't exist isn't a good look. And no, "it's a comic book universe, not ours" doesn't count, because they have the same history to a certain point where it diverges.

I guess racism is in the eye of the viewer.

Being patronzing isn't a good look either.

[Zeek Daniels]

I feel you don't understand how things like this work.

He can't get money from Wakanda. He's not Wakandan. He barely has a working relationship with anyone from Wakanda.
He can't get money from Stark. Stark died.
He can't get money from the Avengers Initiative. Or rather, he already is; those government contracts.

Who are you expecting to give him what's likely at least a million dollars? They aren't asking for peanuts, here. That wasn't a small ship, and it needed a LOT of work and improvement to be able to generate a profit.

I feel like you dont understand how things work.

He can get money from stark. Pepper potts runs stark industries still to the best of our knowlege. The avengers were still active during the 5 year period. Still had stark money. Its only been a few months since then. Stark industries was bank rolling the avengers. Pepper is a good person and could easily loan Sam the money.

He can get the money from the US government easily. Your telling me what essentially is a solo gun for hire for top secret military missions cant command payouts in access of 100k+ per job taken? That mission to save that guy on that plane should have netted Sam 250K easy. Its a f-ing goverment contract, essentially para military except its a 1 man job. No need to split the money. Sam should be making bank with that kind of work.

Fact of the matter is the writers wrote this part poorly. Sam, if this were real life and not fake we need write in a stupid subplot, he would have easily earned or borrowed enough money already. Fact is the writers ignored what would have happened if this was real and wrote themselves into a corner.

[Endus]

I feel like you dont understand how things work.

He can get money from stark. Pepper potts runs stark industries still to the best of our knowlege. The avengers were still active during the 5 year period. Still had stark money. Its only been a few months since then. Stark industries was bank rolling the avengers. Pepper is a good person and could easily loan Sam the money.

You keep focusing on "could", rather than looking at "would".

Pepper was the one who watched the books for Tony. She'd only give Sam's family money as a business loan, and only if she felt it was a good risk on its merits; she might be more willing than a bank to give them generous terms on repayment, but it wouldn't be a gift and even this is pretty iffy.

He can get the money from the US government easily. Your telling me what essentially is a solo gun for hire for top secret military missions cant command payouts in access of 100k+ per job taken? That mission to save that guy on that plane should have netted Sam 250K easy. Its a f-ing goverment contract, essentially para military except its a 1 man job. No need to split the money. Sam should be making bank with that kind of work.

We don't know what kind of costs for materials he's incurring. Those missiles Redwing fired are likely custom-order, and with a contract like this, those costs would come out of Sam's paycheck, not the government's funds.

This also presumes they're constantly knocking on Sam's door. And we got given no reason to think that's true.

Fact of the matter is the writers wrote this part poorly. Sam, if this were real life and not fake we need write in a stupid subplot, he would have easily earned or borrowed enough money already. Fact is the writers ignored what would have happened if this was real and wrote themselves into a corner.

I don't see that. I see a lot of people making arguments based on assumptions rooted in our universe which didn't have to deal with the Snap and the return of those people 5 years later, even though this scene explicitly states that the circumstances in question are what made the bank unable to offer the loan, where they could have, beforehand.

[eschatological]

I do think it somewhat specious that Pepper wouldn't fund Sam.

Like, yeah, she's a businesswoman. But she fought Thanos with Sam.

[Zeek Daniels]

You keep focusing on "could", rather than looking at "would".

Pepper was the one who watched the books for Tony. She'd only give Sam's family money as a business loan, and only if she felt it was a good risk on its merits; she might be more willing than a bank to give them generous terms on repayment, but it wouldn't be a gift and even this is pretty iffy.

Umm no... Did you watch Iron man 2? She literally runs all of stark industries... all of it. She would do none of the things your describing. Why? Because the Avengers are run at a loss. They dont get paid. They are bank rolled.. by stark industries. If Sam wants money to help his family pepper will give it. Dont write yourself into a box your making zero sense.

[formerShandalay]

I don't think Sam would get money from Tony nor Pepper. He came to the team on Cap's side and quite literally went to war with Tony almost right away. Maybe he could get a loan from a 'Bank of Wakanda' if they have an office in the US, but he'd have to find out about that first ^^

[PACOX]

I do think it somewhat specious that Pepper wouldn't fund Sam.

Like, yeah, she's a businesswoman. But she fought Thanos with Sam.

Of course she would give him money Sam's problem is a steady income. His sister also doesn't want to have rely on Sam, who would always have to rely on the Starks. What same needs, and will probably, have someone to put him on some kind of payroll or properly compensate him.

- - - Updated - - -

Umm no... Did you watch Iron man 2? She literally runs all of stark industries... all of it. She would do none of the things your describing. Why? Because the Avengers are run at a loss. They dont get paid. They are bank rolled.. by stark industries. If Sam wants money to help his family pepper will give it. Dont write yourself into a box your making zero sense.

She'd give him money a couple of times but eventually would tell him either he needs to work for start or find something else.

[eschatological]

I should comment further: I think it might be a case of Sam being too proud or stubborn to ask for help. Like, maybe Pepper is overwhelmed by her grief and running Stark Industries at the same time to think about who needs financial help, but I think if he outright asked her she would give it.