[Movie] Snyder Cut: Justice League

[everydaygamer]

It's simple: What the studio thinks will do well and what the fans want are not the same thing.
Also, it seems people are more critical of DC than they are of Marvel. The Marvel movies don't even get close to the source material (that includes Infinity War/Endgame), and the characters are not like what is in the comics at all (they even changed the comics to fit the movie-characters). But nobody cares either because the movie versions are better or they have lower expectations. There is a reason Marvel comics don't sell nearly as well as DC comics, even after Endgame.

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Because it would signal them that the last defender is gone, since there are no other protectors like lanterns.
I agree it's not explained well or at all, but the assumption is that there were lanterns protecting Earth before that.

I agree this issue would be resolved entirely by Vic's father being the catalyst (and would add depth to his actions in the movie) but they needed a good reason to ressurect Superman, namely being that the Boxes were scared of Superman for a reason.

They don't need a good reason to bring back Superman, he's freaken Superman the threat itself is reason enough you don't need some contrived reason like they were scared of him.

Even Batman's guilt over the part he played in Superman's death would have been enough.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

It's actually a pretty big issue that gets glossed over, as it really calls into question the previous movies. Well, technically there's a lot of stuff that does, as there's so much nonsense that occurs in this movie franchise, just to make the story happen that are on a similar level to Martian Manhunter being around for these potentially world-ending events but not doing anything. While there are some nice scenes here and there, the overall writing is consistently bad and disjointed. That isn't to say you can't enjoy watching the movies, as I even I get enjoyment out of watching movies that have terrible writing... but for me, most of the DC movies are at the level where it's too distracting.

Couldn't agree with you more. It's like What Peter says to Tony in Civil War:

"When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you."

Except Martian Manhunter can do a whole lot more than Spider-Man.

Actually, the whole scene with Bruce recruiting Barry feels like a high school drama class production of that Tony/Peter scene in Civil War.

[Frozenbeef]

Worth it just for these...

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I agree this issue would be resolved entirely by Vic's father being the catalyst (and would add depth to his actions in the movie) but they needed a good reason to ressurect Superman, namely being that the Boxes were scared of Superman for a reason.

They had a good reason to resurrect Superman without that contrived nonsense....they were getting their asses kicked. Resurrecting Superman could have just been a Hail Mary pass.

One of the biggest problems with the movie is the fact that The League is entirely ineffective without Superman. Before Superman gets there...the League are fighting a losing battle against Steppenwolf. As soon as Clark shows up...Steppenwolf is entirely neutralized. Cyborg is useful as a McGuffin...and Barry is the McGuffin that activates the other McGuffin....But WW, Aquaman, and Batman might as well not even be there. Hell, even when Cyborg does his thing and disrupts the Unity...he still needs Superman to keep them from reforming anyway. It's not a very good example of how some threats are too much for any one hero to handle on his own when the movie clearly establishes that, if Superman were there from the start, there would never have been a threat in the first place.

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Worth it just for these...

One thing that is kind of funny in that battle is when Ares digs his axe into Darkseid's Neck/Shoulder area. Another clear moment where an Axe-Wielding God "Should have gone for the Head".

Also, I think I would rather have seen a movie about The Greek Gods teaming up with Lanterns, Amazons, and Atlanteans against Darkseid's forces.

[mauserr]

The 4:3 format is a massive fucking meme. Way to ruin a viewing experience for almost everybody.

[Ragedaug]

One of the biggest problems with the movie is the fact that The League is entirely ineffective without Superman. Before Superman gets there...the League are fighting a losing battle against Steppenwolf. As soon as Clark shows up...Steppenwolf is entirely neutralized. Cyborg is useful as a McGuffin...and Barry is the McGuffin that activates the other McGuffin....But WW, Aquaman, and Batman might as well not even be there. Hell, even when Cyborg does his thing and disrupts the Unity...he still needs Superman to keep them from reforming anyway. It's not a very good example of how some threats are too much for any one hero to handle on his own when the movie clearly establishes that, if Superman were there from the start, there would never have been a threat in the first place.

That was the only real problem I had with the movie; the power levels of the good guys. I thought the Amazons and Atlanteans should have been stronger noticeably stronger than parademons, with parademons' advantage being their numbers, but seemed like they were dropping pretty easily to parademons. Then you had the contrast between Aquaman and Wonder Woman's power levels in comparison with Superman shown by their fights against Steppenwolf.

[everydaygamer]

Pitch meeting once again on point.



It didn't even occur to me how unnecessary it was for the bad guys to put a timer on the bomb.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

DC has a more serious tone and doesn't focus on platitudes

DC is entirely focused on platitudes. Superman's whole thing is a Platitude...he stands for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. There is no bigger platitude.

the heroes are important and they fight the biggest threats in order to defend people.

Exactly...They fight to Defend People. So Batman telling Flash that he'll understand after he saves one person is entirely the point. Saving People.

[DingDongKing]

Pitch meeting once again on point.



It didn't even occur to me how unnecessary it was for the bad guys to put a timer on the bomb.

Pretty accurate summation of the weird shit in the film for sure, and done very well.

Still enjoyed the film, mind you. Warts and all. Snyder should do a shorter cut at some point, which would be nice. Oliver Stone did that with his final cut of Alexander. Was good. Tightened the film.

[Fencers]

Could you tell me how MM disguising himself as Martha was tied to the plot?

I think i missed something there because i actually thought about a few times

MMH going to see Lois convinces her to return to work and visit Superman's tomb/death spot one last time. If that interstitial scene did not happen; Lois' character would not have been present at the next event, Superman's awakening/revivification.

[everydaygamer]

MMH going to see Lois convinces her to return to work and visit Superman's tomb/death spot one last time. If that interstitial scene did not happen; Lois' character would not have been present at the next event, Superman's awakening/revivification.

Her visiting that spot is established as something she already does regularly so she would have been there regardless.

[Fencers]

In a four hour movie...every scene should be relevant.

That is not true. No such rule exists. I understand you feel "every scene needs to be relevant", but there is no rule about that at all.

There are some movies that exist that are 7+ hours and even some films which are 24 hours long. A movie only has to be light. Literally. I've seen films which are just light projected on a screen.

Justice League being 4 hours, doesn't make Zack Synder or anyone beholden to a rule of relevance anymore than Tati, Brakhage, Reggio or Deren. Not that Synder walks among such, but fair is fair.

Spending 15 minutes on Barry Allen trying to get a job as a Dog Walker and talking to his dad just drags the pacing down.

That was fine. There was no other prior scene to inform you of Barry's abilities or the nature of his character before then. They must establish him somehow, you might not like how they did it, but nothing before that scene informs this film of Barry before it.

As for Wonder Woman...she didn't need an establishing scene. She'd been established.

That is not true. That is her first action sequence and demonstration of her superhero persona in the film. You might not like how they did it, but they would need to show what she is/does at some point prior to the plot points.

And the entire context of her scene would have been better used to establish Barry.

That's just not liking the filmmaker's choices. Which is fine, but the filmmaker is not wrong for their choices.

It was dumb.

Again, this is just not liking their choices. The writer needed to get a central character to Event C and used that method with MMH to do it. The goal was to get the character to Event C. That's the intent and the evaluation of the necessity of the scene.

You can't critique the movies you wish someone would have made or the choices you made- you have to value the choices the filmmaker makes as presented and intended. Their goal is drama, through whatever means necessary.

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now this is a personal opinion

but i thought for Flash he already had an establishing scene, in a form of his conversation with his father.

That's his motivation. His determination is the scene with Iris demonstrating his powers in the context of The Flash.

Before he saves Iris, his ability and the choices the character makes with his ability are not seen. That is his first go in the film. That is the point.

As a writer they have to establish; Who is this person? What motivates them? And how and what do they do specifically that with that motivation? A movie must show us this visually.

MM scene with Luis was tied to the plot, but it also undermines both his character and that of Martha IMO.

Oh yea, it sucked. But that doesn't mean it was unnecessary.

Unnecessary scenes in films are those such as I described with Dr. Silas earlier or the Macbeth witches/fates at the end. Errors of film technique.

Not liking something is our problem. Not a problem of the film, per se.

Ryan Choi.. I had mixed feelings about. I wasn't familiar with his version of Atom so i didn't realize his significance. so he kinda works in hindsight, but only if his becoming Atom actually gets explored. otherwise he is just random dude of an easter egg who gets to run the lab now, padding the runtime.

WQell, he is just an easter egg. Something happening in another film doesn't alter how you have to make this film. It can only inform another film. But every film is it's own thing.

P.S. Snyder's penchant for self sacrificing fathers and troubled relationships with their children, seems like him trying to work through emotional trauma.

Doubt he is that clever. This guy sucks as a filmmaker.

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One thing that stood out to me was the unnecessary stuff around Arthur and that village. The scene where he saved the guy on the boat didn’t really need to be separate from Bruce showing up looking for him. Or...at least that’s the way it came across to me.

I don't remember to clear honestly. But wasn't there something in the water that convinced Aquabro to join the fight?

I am not the greatest at remembering stuff so I might be wrong about that.

[Crillam]

The 4:3 format is a massive fucking meme. Way to ruin a viewing experience for almost everybody.

You actually get more of the picture in this 4:3 aspect ratio compared to the 16:9.

[Fencers]

Her visiting that spot is established as something she already does regularly so she would have been there regardless.

Not the change in her outlook that is tied to her roles in the plot; reviving Superman. And they would need to reshoot and come in on the scene differently if the audience to make a coherent connection through her regular visitations and the change in her attitude, determination, and the reveal of her pregnancy.

The film could have got you there many ways- but they picked this MMH scene. Which we are free to like or dislike, but regardless it is the interstitial scene to move Lois to the next plotpoint. And that's all I was commenting on- not the imaginary re-write in someone's head.

Her arriving with Alfred and us assuming Bruce Wayne had contacted her prior about resurrecting him, made better sense, imho. I like that Bruce would have gotten in contact with her to let her know his plans, etc.

And as another said, she would have been there regardless, since it was already established that she went there everyday.

This seems like fantasy though. It's not how they went about it in the film. Which perhaps could have had a stronger scene (IMO) to get Lois to the next event. But as I just said, that is neither here nor there with regard to the scene's direct relation to the plot; Superman is revived.

[mauserr]

You actually get more of the picture in this 4:3 aspect ratio compared to the 16:9.

Yeah, you get more vertically, you basically get nothing if initial release was in 16:9, meaning no important detail was cut. You get a few more clouds or a bit more of the statue, amazing, very well worth suffering through the black bars on the sides. Amazing experience.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That is not true. No such rule exists. I understand you feel "every scene needs to be relevant", but there is no rule about that at all.

There are some movies that exist that are 7+ hours and even some films which are 24 hours long. A movie only has to be light. Literally. I've seen films which are just light projected on a screen.

Justice League being 4 hours, doesn't make Zack Synder or anyone beholden to a rule of relevance anymore than Tati, Brakhage, Reggio or Deren. Not that Synder walks among such, but fair is fair.

Justice League is not high art. It's a Super hero action film. Pacing is very important. If your action movie is 4 hours long...pacing is even more important.

That was fine. There was no other prior scene to inform you of Barry's abilities or the nature of his character before then. They must establish him somehow, you might not like how they did it, but nothing before that scene informs this film of Barry before it.

Better ways to establish the character than having him apply for a job. The Whedon cut told us everything we needed to know about Flash without those long establishment scenes.

That is not true. That is her first action sequence and demonstration of her superhero persona in the film. You might not like how they did it, but they would need to show what she is/does at some point prior to the plot points.

She was in BvS and she had her own movie as well before that point. Who she is and what she can do has already been established.
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That's his motivation. His determination is the scene with Iris demonstrating his powers in the context of The Flash.

Before he saves Iris, his ability and the choices the character makes with his ability are not seen. That is his first go in the film. That is the point.

As a writer they have to establish; Who is this person? What motivates them? And how and what do they do specifically that with that motivation? A movie must show us this visually.

And I provided a better way to show all that. Have him stop the terrorists instead of Wonder Woman. Thw whole scene is tailored perfectly for his powers. Beating the timer, saving the children from the gun shots....all things Barry can do Better than Diana. Hell, have them both in the scene...and that shows how sometimes even heroes need help.

Having him save Iris is great...except for the fact that it looks like he's just trying to save the girl he thinks is hot...and not because saving people is just the right thing to do.

Oh yea, it sucked. But that doesn't mean it was unnecessary.

It was completely unnecessary. It's introducing a character that has no place in the movie...and it works better as a scene if it's actually Martha Kent. If Manhunter was going to be part of the movie in some relevant way...than maybe that scene is necessary....but still it cheapens the scene when it's revealed that it wasn't Martha Kent reaching out.

[Fencers]

The 4:3 format is a massive fucking meme. Way to ruin a viewing experience for almost everybody.

This is a technical choice here. Other films present in 4:3 such as the Lighthouse for specific artistic and technical reasons.

They shot this on 35mm with 1.33:1. This is likely done to slide into the vertical of the Imax frame without having to shoot at 1.43:1 specifically. Probably cost-effective in terms of setting up the shots and running the stock.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1236197...ef_=ttloc_sa_5

[everydaygamer]

You actually get more of the picture in this 4:3 aspect ratio compared to the 16:9.

And you lose some of the picture as well. The point is people would rather have a movie that fits there tv screen.

[Fencers]

Justice League is not high art.

There is only art.

It's a Super hero action film.

It's still a film. Regardless of content.

Pacing is very important.

Yes, and pacing is controlled in the manner I already outlined. It's almost exactly how you write a screenplay.

If your action movie is 4 hours long...pacing is even more important.

This is not relevant. Runtime is only important when the runtime is part of the narrative; such as The Clock or Rope.

Better ways to establish the character than having him apply for a job.

Sure. But that's the choice they made- which could be a bad choice in your view. Or not. But there existed nothing in this film prior to inform the audience of Barry Allen and The Flash up to those scenes.

The movie YOU would have made sure sounds awesome. I was talking about the movie Zack Snyder made, however.

The Whedon cut told us everything we needed to know about Flash without those long establishment scenes.

Agree. It was a defter movie. As I said earlier in this thread, this Synder cut just made a bad movie longer and less skillfully in my opinion.

She was in the BvS and she had her own movie as well before that point. Who she is and what she can do has already been established.

That is another movie. You can not write films with character establishment in another film. No single writer would ever do that and no successful producer would ever let that pass in a major film.

And I provided a better way to show all that.

So? That doesn't exist in this film. It's your own fantasy. Might be cool, but you didn't film it and we didn't watch it.

You can't talk about the movie you would have made or wish had been made. We'd just be talking about fantasy-scripts at that point. If that's the case I been kicking around a Robocop 3 reboot for the past decade, wanna hear it?

It was completely unnecessary.

This is objectively wrong though. There is no prior scene in the film that realigns Lois' character to the next plot point. It was the literal way they chose to inform the audience- nothing else exists in this movie except that scene for that purpose.

You conflating your dislike of the scene, which I agree was stupid, with the scene having no purpose in the film. That is objectively wrong.

[everydaygamer]

I enjoyed Man of Steel. Not sure what people had against it.

Honestly, I found it enjoyable but it's a very poor representation of Superman. They basically just copied what worked for Batman and applied it to him.