The Machismo discussion from the Biden/Haris thread so he can stop derailing it.

[Doctor Amadeus]

15$ Whether intended or not is Not Enough, and Too Much, and ultimately it doesn't solve the issue, which is minimum wage NEEDS to be enough to live on OTHERWISE said business need to be taxed enough to maintain support systems like unemployment and welfare.


Minimum wage needs to be Cost Of Living % of medium income for an area. If you are in San Francisco for example you should HAVE to be paid enough to pay rent, own a car OR pay for transportation, cover the basic needs and allow for 20% to be saved.

[Shadowferal]

"I got mine...."

Fuck...if we all started at the same position libertarians would be liberals. Worse, they'd likely prove the Bell Curve.

[Machismo]

"I got mine...."

Fuck...if we all started at the same position libertarians would be liberals. Worse, they'd likely prove the Bell Curve.

I mean, I offered to raise it to $100 an hour, and there were no takers.

Does that make you the libertarian?

[Zan15]

Not really, planning meals and preparing basic things is rather inexpensive. breakfast is actually very cheap, and can easily be done for less than $1 a meal.


Easy, we'll go with something simple like spaghetti, garlic bread, and green beans.

This feeds our family of 5.

Spaghetti: $1 a 16-ounce package
Sauce: $2-$2.49 per jar
Garlic bread: $2 a loaf
Green beans: $.70 a can, I use 2 for the 5 of us.

Now, I don't use close to all the pasta, it ends up being about 2/2 of a package. So, combine that, and you have about $6.40 before utility and water costs.

Shall we discuss the wonders of boneless skinless chicken breast and rice?

Yikes 1lb of spaghetti for 5 people? Damn you people hate spaghetti?

So the meal is not 2 dollars its 7 dollars???


So based on inflation adjusted min wage of $10,500 that you support a year, that's $2,555 a year for dinner. Lets bundle in lunch and breakfast for another $2,555 shall we.
So now we are at half your inflation adjusted min wage just for meals.

Wonder how you are going to pay the rent while still managing to eat.

@15 its 31,200 which would leave you with 26k to pay the rent.

I guess if both parents work it would only be 25% of your pre tax income on food. would leave about 15k for rent and everything else.
Of course then who would watch the kids? Childcare would easily eat through that extra 10k income.

hmmm....

Starting to think inflation adjusted minimum wage is not realistic, do you get that feeling?

[Machismo]

Yikes 1lb of spaghetti for 5 people? Damn you people hate spaghetti?

So the meal is not 2 dollars its 7 dollars???


So based on inflation adjusted min wage of $10,500 that you support a year, that's $2,555 a year for dinner. Lets bundle in lunch and breakfast for another $2,555 shall we.
So now we are at half your inflation adjusted min wage just for meals.

Wonder how you are going to pay the rent while still managing to eat.

@15 its 31,200 which would leave you with 26k to pay the rent.

I guess if both parents work it would only be 25% of your pre tax income on food. would leave about 15k for rent and everything else.
Of course then who would watch the kids? Childcare would easily eat through that extra 10k income.

hmmm....

Starting to think inflation adjusted minimum wage is not realistic, do you get that feeling?

It's not 1 pound of spaghetti, you know it increases in weight when you put it in water, right?

Now, divide that money by the number of people. If you had noticed, I said it was for the entire family... making it $1.28 per person. I'd say that's less than $2.00 right?

Or, did you forget we were talking about single people with no kids?

So, let me know when you are done butchering the numbers.

Just to look at the grocery costs, I decided to look back at what I've spent over the past 30 days.

I've taken a total of 7 trips to the store (6 for me, wife took one). All told, I spent $158.84 per person. Now, I did eat out some, so we can pro-rate those meals, and add accordingly. All told, out of a combined 450 meals last month (assuming 30 and not 28 days), a total of 11 meals were not consumed at home. So, let's add another 2.44% to the cost. That puts me at $162.72 per person, per month... well below that average... and I wasn't even trying.

[jonnysensible]

i was expecting good content, machismo selfish creed being taken down a peg, him having some self realization that the garbage he believes is one step away from trumpism.

but instead here we are with machismo giving out awful recipes that he feeds his kids.

are we still doing 'poor people are bad with money'. fucking tories.

[Endus]

I'm all for trade unions, I love unions.

No. You don't.

No employer should be forced to hire union employees.

Employers in all 5 of those nations are "forced" to hire union employees. None of them are the model you're pushing.

It's wrong, because it's not based on any hard data that people are providing.

This is just an empty falsehood. It's you moving goalposts to somewhere they have no business being in the first place.

The hard data analyses regarding living wages all indicate that $15 isn't anywhere even close to enough. But it was a good first step in reaching that living wage, and reversing the harm caused by letting the minimum wage stagnate in the face of continued inflation.

Is it somewhat arbitrary, as to exactly where to peg the number? Sure. Is the range where the number lies arbitrary? No. That's where you're lying.

And it is a lie. You can't have a strong, fact-and-reason based position on the minimum wage issue and not understand this.

[Zan15]

Or, you know... not own a brand-new fucking car.

Now a topic I can relate too based on how much I drive and owning nothing but used cars (granted most are 1 year old with extended warranties/CPO) but i have vast experience with the people i work with and shopping for used cars.


So a used car huh?

Now you have to "inflate" the upkeep cause you no longer have a brand new car, a new car warranty....etc etc.
Gas millage decreases over time so you have to "inflate" the gas cost.

Lets be honest, cheaper car you buy generally increase the overall cost of ownership till you start getting into the "luxury and super luxury" level of cars.

etc etc

Then you have to assume if you only paid 3600 in upkeep and repairs that you are in the minority on the average cost of maintenance on your car. I have yet to see the average cost over the life of ANY CARE be as low as 400 dollars a year. Especially one that is 9 year old.

I'd love to know the brand and model cause I've spent more that 3600 just two years on a 2014 ford focus and that is out of pocket with an extended extensive warranty.

[Machismo]

i was expecting good content, machismo selfish creed being taken down a peg, him having some self realization that the garbage he believes is one step away from trumpism.

but instead here we are with machismo giving out awful recipes that he feeds his kids.

are we still doing 'poor people are bad with money'. fucking tories.

Spaghetti isn't the worst thing to eat, you know.

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No. You don't.



Employers in all 5 of those nations are "forced" to hire union employees. None of them are the model you're pushing.



This is just an empty falsehood. It's you moving goalposts to somewhere they have no business being in the first place.

The hard data analyses regarding living wages all indicate that $15 isn't anywhere even close to enough. But it was a good first step in reaching that living wage, and reversing the harm caused by letting the minimum wage stagnate in the face of continued inflation.

Is it somewhat arbitrary, as to exactly where to peg the number? Sure. Is the range where the number lies arbitrary? No. That's where you're lying.

And it is a lie. You can't have a strong, fact-and-reason based position on the minimum wage issue and not understand this.

That doesn't mean I am opposed to them, merely that I have no desire to force them.

Start all the unions you want, start consumer unions. Collective bargaining is a very good thing, you should push for it.

If $15 isn't anywhere close... then stop pushing the $15 minimum wage. it's an arbitrary number, and when people are questioned on that arbitrary number, this is exactly what happens.

[Zan15]

It's not 1 pound of spaghetti, you know it increases in weight when you put it in water, right?

Now, divide that money by the number of people. If you had noticed, I said it was for the entire family... making it $1.28 per person. I'd say that's less than $2.00 right?

Or, did you forget we were talking about single people with no kids?

So, let me know when you are done butchering the numbers.

This feeds our family of 5.
You said it, so meh?

So a single person is all set a family of 5 is screwed. Got it.
Let me know when min wage is based on family size.

Even a family of 3 would be screwed based on inflation only min wage adjustment.

[Endus]

Now a topic I can relate too based on how much I drive and owning nothing but used cars (granted most are 1 year old with extended warranties/CPO) but i have vast experience with the people i work with and shopping for used cars.

So a used car huh?

Now you have to "inflate" the upkeep cause you no longer have a brand new car, a new car warranty....etc etc.
Gas millage decreases over time so you have to "inflate" the gas cost.

We should probably also point out that this is getting deep into "Vimes' Boot Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness" territory.

The wealthy get to buy new cars and drive them till they start to break down.
They then sell those cars to the poors, who struggle to keep them going because they can't afford another used car and thus need to keep investing into this decaying heap to keep it going as long as possible.

In the end, the latter ends up costing them as much or more than just buying a new car for its whole lifespan would have, but because it's not all up front, it's "easier" to afford.

[Zan15]

If $15 isn't anywhere close... then stop pushing the $15 minimum wage. it's an arbitrary number, and when people are questioned on that arbitrary number, this is exactly what happens.

you still haven't given us the right numbers since you so obviously know 15 is not the right number.

So what is it?

Pick a spot a town a city a state and gimee an example.

How do you know 15 is wrong?

[Machismo]

Now a topic I can relate too based on how much I drive and owning nothing but used cars (granted most are 1 year old with extended warranties/CPO) but i have vast experience with the people i work with and shopping for used cars.


So a used car huh?

Now you have to "inflate" the upkeep cause you no longer have a brand new car, a new car warranty....etc etc.
Gas millage decreases over time so you have to "inflate" the gas cost.

Lets be honest, cheaper car you buy generally increase the overall cost of ownership till you start getting into the "luxury and super luxury" level of cars.

etc etc

Then you have to assume if you only paid 3600 in upkeep and repairs that you are in the minority on the average cost of maintenance on your car. I have yet to see the average cost over the life of ANY CARE be as low as 400 dollars a year. Especially one that is 9 year old.

I'd love to know the brand and model cause I've spent more that 3600 just two years on a 2014 ford focus and that is out of pocket with an extended extensive warranty.

Honda minivan.

I've also owned used shitters, as well. Honestly, they are largely hit or miss, and I've bought a couple really bad cars. But, looking back at the cars I had before, I don't think any came close to $900 a month over their lifetimes.

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you still haven't given us the right numbers since you so obviously know 15 is not the right number.

So what is it?

Pick a spot a town a city a state and gimee an example.

How do you know 15 is wrong?

It's not my fucking number to give, because I'm not the one trying to push it.

Is $0 taken?

I offered $100 an hour, and nobody wanted it.

The burden is on the people calling for that $15 an hour, that's you guys.

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This feeds our family of 5.
You said it, so meh?

So a single person is all set a family of 5 is screwed. Got it.
Let me know when min wage is based on family size.

Even a family of 3 would be screwed based on inflation only min wage adjustment.

We were specifically discussing cost of living, and I simply pointed wo why I disagreed with those numbers, and provided my own examples as to why.

[Endus]

Spaghetti isn't the worst thing to eat, you know.

Eating nothing but spaghetti will give you serious nutritional deficiencies.

That doesn't mean I am opposed to them, merely that I have no desire to force them.

Without the capacity to twist their employer's arms and force them to hire union members, the union has no power whatsoever and can and will be summarily ignored by the employer.

Without government support for unions, they're irrelevant. At best, the collect the "bad eggs" in one spot so the employers know who to fire first.

Start all the unions you want, start consumer unions. Collective bargaining is a very good thing, you should push for it.

See, this is dishonest.

You can't "collectively bargain" without some way to make the employer come to the bargaining table.

And you oppose unions having that power.

If $15 isn't anywhere close... then stop pushing the $15 minimum wage. it's an arbitrary number, and when people are questioned on that arbitrary number, this is exactly what happens.

Except you're not questioning that number.

You're complaining that it isn't derived mathematically from hard data, which nobody ever said it was. The $7.25 figure wasn't so derived, either. So what's your grounds for opposing the replacement of one arbitrary number with another, if you really don't think they mean anything?

Oh, wait, they do mean something, don't they? Money having value, and all that. So there goes your "arbitrary" position.

You are not approaching this honestly. It's the equivalent of holding up a snowball and saying "so much for the climate change conspiracy". It's exactly that level of deliberate, malicious dishonesty.

[Machismo]

Eating nothing but spaghetti will give you serious nutritional deficiencies.



Without the capacity to twist their employer's arms and force them to hire union members, the union has no power whatsoever and can and will be summarily ignored by the employer.

Without government support for unions, they're irrelevant. At best, the collect the "bad eggs" in one spot so the employers know who to fire first.



See, this is dishonest.

You can't "collectively bargain" without some way to make the employer come to the bargaining table.

And you oppose unions having that power.



Except you're not questioning that number.

You're complaining that it isn't derived mathematically from hard data, which nobody ever said it was. The $7.25 figure wasn't so derived, either. So what's your grounds for opposing the replacement of one arbitrary number with another, if you really don't think they mean anything?

Oh, wait, they do mean something, don't they? Money having value, and all that. So there goes your "arbitrary" position.

You are not approaching this honestly. It's the equivalent of holding up a snowball and saying "so much for the climate change conspiracy". It's exactly that level of deliberate, malicious dishonesty.

And luckily, I don't eat only spaghetti... so no problem there.

Their collective bargaining is how they twist their employer's arms. The same thing with collective spending.

Yes, you can bring them to the table, because they need to sell shit to stay in business. They need employees to make shit in order to stay in business.

I. Am. Questioning. That. Number.

I have been questioning that number all along. You are either lying, or haven't been paying attention.

[Fugus]

First, let’s stop some of @Machismo deflections.

1. $15 wasn’t an arbitrary number. When it first was talked about, it was the half way point between where wages were and where they should be when properly adjusted for inflation and productivity. So when he brings up that lie, point him here.

2. When he brings up the other countries doing well without a minimum wage, also bring up that those same countries have support strong unions with GOVERNMENT PROTECTIONS to actually make sure they have teeth. And that America is an example of how to do stuff wrong and just how badly they can be screwed if the government doesn’t protect their unions and why unions should exist.

3) When he asks why not $100, the same reason why not a penny a month on salary or why you don’t drink an entire pool of water when a glass of water is good for you.

[Machismo]

First, let’s stop some of @Machismo deflections.

1. $15 wasn’t an arbitrary number. When it first was talked about, it was the half way point between where wages were and where they should be when properly adjusted for inflation and productivity. So when he brings up that lie, point him here.

2. When he brings up the other countries doing well without a minimum wage, also bring up that those same countries have support strong unions with GOVERNMENT PROTECTIONS to actually make sure they have teeth. And that America is an example of how to do stuff wrong and just how badly they can be screwed if the government doesn’t protect their unions and why unions should exist.

3) When he asks why not $100, the same reason why not a penny a month on salary or why you don’t drink an entire pool of water when a glass of water is good for you.

Evidence, please.

I happened to remember very well when the whole chanting of $15 an hour started, and it wasn't what you claimed.

[PhaelixWW]

But, looking back at the cars I had before, I don't think any came close to $900 a month over their lifetimes.

Ignoring the fact that this is "transportation" for a family of four, which might include a necessary second vehicle, assorted bus, train, plane fares...

[Zan15]

It's not my fucking number to give, because I'm not the one trying to push it.

Is $0 taken?

I offered $100 an hour, and nobody wanted it.

The burden is on the people calling for that $15 an hour, that's you guys.


We were specifically discussing cost of living, and I simply pointed wo why I disagreed with those numbers, and provided my own examples as to why.

So your whole argument is you just don't like the #15

You don't base this off any hard data, any know facts, reports or studies....just your feelings that the #15 is wrong.

After all the numbers are crunched it might very well be 15 since you haven't done any research you have no idea at all.

Again what was wrong with the data they already gave you and that is readily available to support 15 as a starting point in the next 5 or so years?
You didn't like inflation + production cause....umm....you didn't like it
You didn't like COL cause, you didn't like it.
etc
etc

You are arguing against 15 for no other reason then it being 15 and just inflation.

[Machismo]

Ignoring the fact that this is "transportation" for a family of four, which might include a necessary second vehicle, assorted bus, train, plane fares...

We were discussing a single person with zero kids, as was pointed to in the article he presented.

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So your whole argument is you just don't like the #15

You don't base this off any hard data, any know facts, reports or studies....just your feelings that the #15 is wrong.

After all the numbers are crunched it might very well be 15 since you haven't done any research you have no idea at all.

Again what was wrong with the data they already gave you and that is readily available to support 15 as a starting point in the next 5 or so years?
You didn't like inflation + production cause....umm....you didn't like it
You didn't like COL cause, you didn't like it.
etc
etc

You are arguing against 15 for no other reason then it being 15 and just inflation.

My whole argument is that it's arbitrary, not based on hard numbers, and would harm many of the areas like West Virginia... which is why guys like Manchin opposed it.

The burden is still on you guys. Until you can show why it's exactly $15, then you have nothing to offer.
And, if you are going to say, "Why not $15?" I'll reply with... why not $100?