The Machismo discussion from the Biden/Haris thread so he can stop derailing it.

[Machismo]

A single thread to show what kind of person you are...

It would seem I have a lot of fans, and there's an alarming number of people who cannot grasp why Biden and the rest of the Democratic leadership aren't pressuring Manchin and the others over the 415 minimum wage.

[Yadryonych]

He's not complaining. Why should you?

"When they came..."

[Shadowferal]

"When they came..."

Different contexts...if a guy started posting his support for child slave labor...and was vehemently consistent on it and was all about "come at me bro!" then his filthy beliefs get exactly the responses he deserves.

It wouldn't be so bad had he not the stupidity that insisted he was right, everyone else is wrong...the only sane person in a mad world.

[Machismo]

Different contexts...if a guy started posting his support for child slave labor...and was vehemently consistent on it and was all about "come at me bro!" then his filthy beliefs get exactly the responses he deserves.

It wouldn't be so bad had he not the stupidity that insisted he was right, everyone else is wrong...the only sane person in a mad world.

Or.. you know... historical records on the issue, polling data, common sense, and voting records.

So, why do you think that Biden and the rest of the Democratic leadership should be pressuring Manchin and the others more in order to make this happen?

[Shadowferal]

Oh save it.

Your disgusting nonsense gave us Trump supporters yelling "freedom..."

[Muzjhath]

No, it's not force... because nobody is holding a gun to my head if I don't comply. I'm more than fine with people speaking with their wallets, and exercising their freedom of association.

You specifically asked about those scenarios, and I answered. If you want to move goalposts after the fact, that's on you.

Except it is force. Hard to run a restaurant if you've got a container full of thrash outside. It might not be by using violence. It is a use of force. They are two different things.
And I mean that unions forced toys'r'us into a union. The equivalent to the Teamsters union just refused to deliver to toys'r'us. Which in this capacity was a use of force. Not voting with the wallet.

He did sign it... with Democratic supermajorities.

Mind you, the irony of people invoking FDR signing this, is hilarious, especially when saying he wanted more. This all stemmed from people being pissed that Biden isn't pressuring Manchin hard enough on the $15 minimum wage. Well, of course not... because Biden would sign an $11 minimum wage in a fucking heartbeat.

This just shows that you do not fully get what party he was dealing with. Yes, there was a Democratic super majority. However far from all of those were for his reforms. He had to deal with different branches of either big party and get support from induvidual members of congress for his bills. Had more progressive GOP members been in congress it's likely he'd have gotten a bill more towards his liking than with a Democratic Super Majority.
So this is you showing that you don't fully get the parties he worked with/against and how they were constituated at the time.
And Biden would sign an 11 USD wage for the same reason FDR did. Better than nothing. Even if Biden personally might be for the 15, or even better.
But as Mike Duncan put it considering the filibuster and voting reform. People who want good governance of the US back ought to push for abolishing the Senate. So that removing the filibuster becomes the comfortable middle. Doesn't mean that they should settle for whatever the GOP regurgitates back at them.

[Machismo]

Oh save it.

Your disgusting nonsense gave us Trump supporters yelling "freedom..."

Is this you not willing to actually address the original issue?

No, pushing a $15 minimum wage, and attacking moderates like Manchin is ho you got asshats like Trump.

Mind you, you are far closer to a Trump supporter than I am, with your support of ethno-nationalism and hatred of allowing other cultures to exist.

[Shadowferal]

Whatever...in your mind you're right, everyone else is wrong.

"Freedom!"

[Machismo]

Except it is force. Hard to run a restaurant if you've got a container full of thrash outside. It might not be by using violence. It is a use of force. They are two different things.
And I mean that unions forced toys'r'us into a union. The equivalent to the Teamsters union just refused to deliver to toys'r'us. Which in this capacity was a use of force. Not voting with the wallet.

This just shows that you do not fully get what party he was dealing with. Yes, there was a Democratic super majority. However far from all of those were for his reforms. He had to deal with different branches of either big party and get support from induvidual members of congress for his bills. Had more progressive GOP members been in congress it's likely he'd have gotten a bill more towards his liking than with a Democratic Super Majority.
So this is you showing that you don't fully get the parties he worked with/against and how they were constituated at the time.
And Biden would sign an 11 USD wage for the same reason FDR did. Better than nothing. Even if Biden personally might be for the 15, or even better.
But as Mike Duncan put it considering the filibuster and voting reform. People who want good governance of the US back ought to push for abolishing the Senate. So that removing the filibuster becomes the comfortable middle. Doesn't mean that they should settle for whatever the GOP regurgitates back at them.

Then, pay someone else. Pay another company, start another company. Take it to the landfill yourself.

Now, if you are saying government is involved, then you have force.

If no government is involved, then it's simply an exercise in freedom of association.

I agree, Biden would sign an $11 bill, for exactly the same reason... which is why he an the rest of the Democratic leadership are not pushing Manchin and the others. I've literally been saying this all along. This is a battle that the progressives simply will not win. This all started two days ago with me saying exactly that... and a legion of progressives that were so fucking butt hurt over it, that they decided to start their own thread to voice their displeasures.

A few of the Democrats weren't on board with it.

It's not that complicated.

What incentive do they have to cave? They live in red states in districts that would easily go to a Republican if the Democratic party pushed too hard against them.

A $15 minimum wage in West Virginia would be a crushing blow to many small towns, because prices would go up, and businesses would close. West Virginia is dead fucking last in the United States in median income, so they would see the biggest negative impact to this.

Yep, that's what started it all.

- - - Updated - - -

Whatever...in your mind you're right, everyone else is wrong.

"Freedom!"

I love that you are so butt hurt over all this, that you cannot even respond. You tried to blame me for Trump, when you straight supported ethno-nationalism and keeping out brown people the other day.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53082231

[Levelfive]

It's been demonstrated repeatedly with all sorts of data that it's not an arbitrary number, and takes many different factors into account--the fact that there are "no takers" for $100 minimum wage is actually evidence of that--but Machismo also hasn't explained why "arbitrary" or "unprecedented" are valid arguments against it or even inherently bad. It's a lower number than many of us think--and the data show--is sufficient, but it's a target number that is increasingly politically tenable and works to alleviate suffering across the country. It's also directly stimulative and would help get people off of government programs that currently subsidize businesses paying subsistence wages. IIRC, the way it was originally written it would have started at $11 and risen to $15 by 2025. And the whole "well that's what FDR signed so it's proof that's what he wanted!" is equally ridiculous--that's like saying ACA is exactly the healthcare plan Obama always intended because he signed it, after all.

[Machismo]

It's been demonstrated repeatedly with all sorts of data that it's not an arbitrary number, and takes many different factors into account--the fact that there are "no takers" for $100 minimum wage is actually evidence of that--but Machismo also hasn't explained why "arbitrary" or "unprecedented" are valid arguments against it or even inherently bad. It's a lower number than many of us think--and the data show--is sufficient, but it's a target number that is increasingly politically tenable and works to alleviate suffering across the country. It's also directly stimulative and would help get people off of government programs that currently subsidize businesses paying subsistence wages. IIRC, the way it was originally written it would have started at $11 and risen to $15 by 2025. And the whole "well that's what FDR signed so it's proof that's what he wanted!" is equally ridiculous--that's like saying ACA is exactly the healthcare plan Obama always intended because he signed it, after all.

Except, those factors are not taken into account. people have tried to say it's based on productivity, cost of living, a "living wage," and that it should be much, much higher.

Mind you, this all started because people were butt hurt about Manchin not being on board, and outraged that Biden wasn't pushing him harder. Well no shit, Biden knows that it's a losing battle, and he also knows that the $11 an hour minimum wage is more popular.

Progressives need to give up on the dream of a $15 minimum wage in the next few years... it's not going to happen. They would be far more wise to work to get $11, which still puts it as one of the highest points in history, based on inflation.

[Shadowferal]

It's been demonstrated repeatedly with all sorts of data that it's not an arbitrary number... .

You won't get anything. This is an old libertarian tactic; demand proof from the opposing argument abd deny it...while refusing any proof of his own. (Very important since libertarians never have any to show to begin with that support their argument that the wealthy should fuck the poor in a positive light)

[Machismo]

You won't get anything. This is an old libertarian tactic; demand proof from the opposing argument abd deny it...while refusing any proof of his own. (Very important since libertarians never have any to show to begin with that support their argument that the wealthy should fuck the poor in a positive light)

You mean like this?

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019...ear/index.html

Nowhere close to $15, ever.

[Levelfive]

Except, those factors are not taken into account. people have tried to say it's based on productivity, cost of living, a "living wage," and that it should be much, much higher.

Mind you, this all started because people were butt hurt about Manchin not being on board, and outraged that Biden wasn't pushing him harder. Well no shit, Biden knows that it's a losing battle, and he also knows that the $11 an hour minimum wage is more popular.

Progressives need to give up on the dream of a $15 minimum wage in the next few years... it's not going to happen. They would be far more wise to work to get $11, which still puts it as one of the highest points in history, based on inflation.

What factors were not taken into account? It's based on a lot of things, as it should be.

[JohnBrown1917]

This is a pointless debate because the minimum wage amount is literally just based on however much leftists can force employers to pay based on ideology. The only reason the federal minimum wage is not set at $15/$16/$17 or higher in countries where left-of-center parties have legislative power is because they don't want to receive the blame for the negative economic results. A minimum wage amount is only viable for as long as it's low enough that it's impossible to isolate any form of causation in a statistical analysis. If the current minimum wage went up too much faster than inflation then negative causation could be shown and then it would be lowered back down to a level where it can't be shown again. People are largely wasting their time by thinking that enough popular support can change this.

Those countries have far stronger unions and/or labour laws. Far lower medical costs really runs down how much you need for a living wage.


But you and Machismo have fun with the people going bankrupt over medical debt.

[Machismo]

What factors were not taken into account? It's based on a lot of things, as it should be.

Not according to the posters, because they cannot seem to keep track.

In the end, $15 picked, because it was easy to put on protest signs, and was the fastest-growing talking point.

[JohnBrown1917]

"When they came..."

A, yes, a poem that starts with how the far right came for the left first to try and defend far right economic positions.

[downnola]

This system has many problems...

I suggest you not spend money at any business that doesn't pay their employees a proper wage.

Why would I bother doing that when I can just support a minimum wage increase with my vote? The whole "just boycott and let the market fix itself" is just another libertarian myth designed to shift the responsibility of this mess from capital to workers and consumers. Endless faith in the dogma of the "free market" is your religion pal, not mine.

[Machismo]

Why would I bother doing that when I can just support a minimum wage increase with my vote? The whole "just boycott and let the market fix itself" is just another libertarian myth designed to shift the responsibility of this mess from capital to workers and consumers. Endless faith in the dogma of the "free market" is your religion pal, not mine.

Well, because you are going to get strong pushback, and it won't happen... as we see right here.

Endless faith in government is your religion pal, not mine.

[Levelfive]

Not according to the posters, because they cannot seem to keep track.

In the end, $15 picked, because it was easy to put on protest signs, and was the fastest-growing talking point.

People are citing different reasons because there many different reasons, which is more evidence, not less. None of what you said is an argument against it.