Is Sylvanas the most evil character ever in WoW or just misunderstood?

[TickTickTick]

She stopped being a character after Wotlk. Now she's just a plot mechanism meant to push the story in a specific direction. Nothing about her is consistent. Her book might as well be scrapped because we're directly inside her inner thoughts, yet not a single thought was about the Jailer. She's working for a guy who created a lich king, a guy who also employs Kel'thuzad. She is sure about their plan, but then she shows doubts becaue cute blonde human. Honestly she's a mess and you can tell she's receiving special treatment from blizz.

Hopefully we just kill her in 9.1 and with 10.0 we move into a new WoW era clear of Sylvanas bullshittery. If only they just killed her after ICC sigh.

[Powerogue]

I feel like those Good's were kind of countered by BFA:

Gave the Forsaken a new purpose - which she proceeded to desecrate by trying to mind control Zelling. Proceeds to admit to her loyalists that she never cared for the forsaken, merely pitied them.
Protected their ancestral homelands - nuked them in a war she started, knowing full well it would come to that when she burned Teldrassil and not being bothered at all.
Avenged Vol'jin - the Jailer is the reason Vol'jin put her in a warchief position in the first place, and we saw how well that went in the long run.

[Zuben]

As for Sylvanas I have a theory. We know the Jailer can see through the helm. He'd've known about Sylvanas' entire history with Arthas thru when she killed herself following his death. He observes Uther throwing Arthas into the Maw, bypassing the Arbiter, and gets an idea. He sends his mawsworn to grab Sylvanas, throws her into the Maw, makes sure she sees Arthas, then gives her the offer to join him. If Sylvanas' speech to Anduin about the "system" being broken and believing the Jailer can fix it leads to her getting backstabbed by him it could be a good redemption moment. I have similar thoughts about Kael'thas and whether he knew that Kil'jaeden was the mastermind behind his people's genocide. Yes, sympathy out the window. No, even more tragic character.

It's just that with the amount of 4D chess we've seen Sylvanas playing over the years her being a patsy in the end doesn't feel satisfying. I think it's more in her character she never trusted the Jailer and instead aimed to use his power, making preparations to enact a plan if/when it becomes apparent he's about to betray her. Her having conflicted feelings about what they're doing to Anduin fits this too, if she's to still have decency within her. I chose Loyalist in BFA, believing there was a more non-selfish motivation behind all the atrocities, that Sylvanas actually saw something is objectively wrong with a greater whatever the rest are blind to (plus the Rebels felt way too naive to me...). That way she wouldn't be redeemed, but rather vindicated (her character anyway, her deeds are a bit too much for that, requiring her to die or something). She'd be a pariah to most of Azeroth's denizens, but a few select individuals would know why she did it. That's tragic.

If after all that the resolution is that Sylvanas was wrong and a fool I have well and truly lost all faith in the writing team. They'd be at the level of kid cartoons aimed at ages less than 7 at that point.

[Tarba]

Basically before shadowland dumbfest she was still a nice girl compared to Orgrim Doomhammer.

[Sorrowseer]

Not the most evil but she is evil and has been left around far too long.

[Selinde]

In a universe where death is not the end - murder/genocide/whatever is NOT evil.

In a universe where every soul who dies gets directly sent to the equivalent of hell being tormented for eternity, and not only you know about it beforehand, it's actually your goal to send them there - murder/genocide/whatever is definitely evil.

There, I fixed it. You never played the Night Fae campaign did you? Because Ysera sends you to save Night Elven souls from the Maw and when following Tyrande through Torghast you encounter Night Elven souls, some of those scream in agony, so far gone that they fuse into an abomination that begs to be permanently killed.

[huth]

In a universe where every soul who dies gets directly sent to the equivalent of hell being tormented for eternity, and not only you know about it beforehand, it's actually your goal to send them there - murder/genocide/whatever is definitely evil.

Let's not forget that you're also still permanently taken away from your previous place. So while the impact may be less than if death just lead to cessation of existance, it's not nothing and certainly still evil.

[Raisei]

First of all killing people ends their suffering.

Did you somehow miss the part where killing people at the moment send then into the Maw, a realm of perpetual torment? Something Sylvanas was completely aware of and did not care about even one bit.

Secondly, evil is in the eye of the beholder.

There is a limit to that. At some point subjective evil will be very clearly objective evil simply by the amount of people condemning it. Mass Murder of civilians and Genocide are events where all people with a moral compass will agree that it is an evil deed.

Thirdly, in the universe with no true death - every suffering is just a milestone in the growth of an individual until they get the ultimate prize of eternal life in paradise. It's totally worth it. Necessary even.

So what you are saying is that if you believe that in a given universe there is a life after death murder is okay? I will try that defense if I ever get convicted for killing my colleague. "But your honor, I was only helping him to the next milestone on his journey, it was necessary!"

[huth]

So what you are saying is that if you believe that in a given universe there is a life after death murder is okay? I will try that defense if I ever get convicted for killing my colleague. "But your honor, I was only helping him to the next milestone on his journey, it was necessary!"

It's based on an incorrect interpretation in the first place. The 'verse does have true death. Once you're dead and ferried to the Shadowlands, just coming back to life isn't in the cards anymore, and if your soul dies, you're gone permanently.

Besides, Sylvanas didn't just kill. She killed them knowing they'd end up in the Maw with all that implies.

[VladlTutushkin]

I was obviously talking about in the WoW universe, but the same applies to irl.

Well... thats a hot take. As a slav i dont think that genocide is excusable.

- - - Updated - - -

In a universe where death is not the end - murder/genocide/whatever is NOT evil.

In her case thats evil because she send all the souls of the people she killed (and people who died while killing them) to the Maw, possibly the only place that equals "assured destruction and torment" for the soul.

[Le Conceptuel]

First of all killing people ends their suffering. Secondly, evil is in the eye of the beholder. Thirdly, in the universe with no true death - every suffering is just a milestone in the growth of an individual until they get the ultimate prize of eternal life in paradise. It's totally worth it. Necessary even.

But anywho, by your definition, The Player is the evilest entity in World of Warcraft.

lolwut? I mean, I think most people who believe in an afterlife in real life aren't exactly accepting of genocide.

[MatPandaZ]

Well... thats a hot take. As a slav i dont think that genocide is excusable.

So if a race of people had an infection that caused the eyeballs of all other children to explode, feet to fall off and and genitals die, that quarantine had no effect and there was absolutely no way of stopping it destroying the entire human race, you wouldn't say genocide could be excusable? At no point did I say all genocide is excusable. In the case of Sylvannas we are slaves forced into war and then made to serve until infinity in the afterlife. That we are tortured and drained. That once you die everything is taken from you and you are made to serve someone else. Don't you think if genocide was a way of breaking that, you could at least understand someone's reasoning?

[VladlTutushkin]

So if a race of people had an infection that caused the eyeballs of all other children to explode, feet to fall off and and genitals die, that quarantine had no effect and there was absolutely no way of stopping it destroying the entire human race, you wouldn't say genocide could be excusable? At no point did I say all genocide is excusable. In the case of Sylvannas we are slaves forced into war and then made to serve until infinity in the afterlife. That we are tortured and drained. That once you die everything is taken from you and you are made to serve someone else. Don't you think if genocide was a way of breaking that, you could at least understand someone's reasoning?

If we talking about such scenarios then its not a "real" situation. Killing people infected with incurable disease is one, saying that "Yeah, that land looks mighty fine, might as well Liebensraum" is another.

And if she wanted to "fix" afterlife she should have killed off horde, she is quite good at it. Also, it seems like afterlife is fixable without such drastic measures. And Jailer will never create anything better then current system, thats for sure.

[MatPandaZ]

If we talking about such scenarios then its not a "real" situation. Killing people infected with incurable disease is one, saying that "Yeah, that land looks mighty fine, might as well Liebensraum" is another.

And if she wanted to "fix" afterlife she should have killed off horde, she is quite good at it. Also, it seems like afterlife is fixable without such drastic measures. And Jailer will never create anything better then current system, thats for sure.

Killing horde wouldn't have started an all out war. She needed to do something the Alliance wouldn't just let slip.

How is the afterlife fixable without such drastic measures? who says the Jailer has his own idea of how it should work instead of reverting it back to how it WAS? You give such absolutes without thinking things through.

[VladlTutushkin]

Killing horde wouldn't have started an all out war. She needed to do something the Alliance wouldn't just let slip.

How is the afterlife fixable without such drastic measures? who says the Jailer has his own idea of how it should work instead of reverting it back to how it WAS? You give such absolutes without thinking things through.

Because Jailer’s modus operandi is torture, domination and enslavement. He is not the person you entrust with every soul in the Universe.

And besides, she still going to die. If Tyrande fails others will do that. No matter what intentions she may had she signed her own death warrant by aggravating both factions so deeply.

[MatPandaZ]

Because Jailer’s modus operandi is torture, domination and enslavement. He is not the person you entrust with every soul in the Universe.

And besides, she still going to die. If Tyrande fails others will do that. No matter what intentions she may had she signed her own death warrant by aggravating both factions so deeply.

I don't see anyone else in the SL wanting things to change, in fact the rest want it to stay exactly the same according to the 'purpose'. So while a git, he is the only one attempting to break the prison and the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

She WANTS to die, but she doesn't want to die a slave. She wants a die and be FREE.

[Florena]

Not the 'most' evil but definitely evil.

[huth]

Killing horde wouldn't have started an all out war. She needed to do something the Alliance wouldn't just let slip.

How is the afterlife fixable without such drastic measures? who says the Jailer has his own idea of how it should work instead of reverting it back to how it WAS? You give such absolutes without thinking things through.

So do you. Who says they're going to improve anything or that it is even actually broken?

[Liarparadox]

Sylvanas was perfect as a side character. Giving her a main role was the worst thing they did to her character.
Some characters are just not made to shine under constant spotlight.

Agreed. She was much better as a side character.

[Shadowferal]

There's the ever fresh evil that is Gul'dan.
And there's the stale kind that no matter how you warm it over it always comes across as putrid. And Sylvanus is long past her expiration date.