Fantasy vs Science Fiction.

[arkanon]

If that was the case, i'd agree with you. But it isn't. The two "genres" are so close to each other that it's trivially easy to switch a work from one to the other. Any work.

Not going to get involved in some dispute about semantics, but I do happen to agree that the two are very closely linked, and incorporating elements from one into the other (either direction) is extremely easy, and generally well accepted.

I think it is safe to discuss tech without a certain someone bull rushing into the conversation and derailing it since I believe they are currently on vacation, so I would like to offer my opinion on Tech in WoW. I would love for WoW to take a huge left turn and do something "crazy" like have a full steampunk expansion. "bla bla tech portal opened to unkown land bla bla tech advanced land at other end bla bla steampunk expansion".

This would open the door to some pretty cool ideas i personally would really love to see - cosmetic unlocks that are essentially optional class skins - so instead of our artifact weapons, we unlock an item that we keep for the whole expansion, that allows us to unlock "class skins":

Warlocks get a technomancer skin
Warriors get an energy shield and energy sword
Hunters get a fully mechanic skin with advanced steampunk style "lazer guns" and "drone" style pets (crows become a swarm of mini drones for example)
Rogues get energy blades and abilities are changed to "tech" alternatives like stealth becomes a futuristic cloaking device

(be gentle, I thought of those on the spot)

Hopefully that gives a quick glimpse about what im talking about - not CP2077, and closer to a mix between Warhammers tech, and something like Gungans in Starwars (Me'sa crazy to include this), or that so bad its good movie that flopped......wtf was it called? he could jump real high and the aliens had 4 arms....

Mostly I think its a chance for the more creative devs to really shine and show us how creative they can be without breaking the core gameplay - I know they can, or at least could, and i would love to see them completely unleashed with something new and different.

I just personally think it would be a cool departure from the same old swords and sandals stuff we have been doing for 15 years, but at the same time, i fully appreciate most would be against such a dramatic shift in art style for such a well established game.

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Fantasy, at least when it comes to WoW. Sci-fi is best left for games specifically designed with it in mind, like Beyond Earth or Blizzard's own SC or SC2.

I realise a SC mmo/rpg wont happen, but that is one reason i would love to see them explore it - fully advanced alien tech and all the joys of the terran. Again, i know it wont happen, but it would probably be very well received.

[Absintheminded]

Congratulations for illustrating the point. No points for failing to realise it, though.

Yes, you could change between the two by merely switching out superficial details, without actually changing the story itself. That's precisely why they aren't really different genres to begin with. Try changing a murder mystery into a romance, that's a lot more effort and actual story changes.

It's a stupid argument where you think actual differences are arbitrary and meaningless. If they weren't fundamentally different, then they wouldn't both exist. I'm not going to lay out every difference for you for your idiotic satisfaction, you can figure it out yourself.

[huth]

It's a stupid argument where you think actual differences are arbitrary and meaningless. If they weren't fundamentally different, then they wouldn't both exist.

Well, yes, that's what i'm arguing. They're not fundamentally different, so there's no real reason to have both.

If you want to argue against that, you're going to have to show that they are fundamentally different, not throw a hissy fit, though.
If you can just switch labels around to go from SciFi to Fantasy without any actual story changes, it's certainly not.

I'm not going to lay out every difference for you for your idiotic satisfaction, you can figure it out yourself.

Well, okay, but then you're just throwing the debate.

[Absintheminded]

Well, yes, that's what i'm arguing. They're not fundamentally different, so there's no real reason to have both.

If you want to argue against that, you're going to have to show that they are fundamentally different, not throw a hissy fit, though.
If you can just switch labels around to go from SciFi to Fantasy without any actual story changes, it's certainly not.



Well, okay, but then you're just throwing the debate.

It's not a debate, you simply live in your own personal fantasy world where you can say two different things are the same. It's also not called a hissy fit when someone thinks you're a dumbass for saying stupid shit.

[huth]

I realise a SC mmo/rpg wont happen, but that is one reason i would love to see them explore it - fully advanced alien tech and all the joys of the terran. Again, i know it wont happen, but it would probably be very well received.

Well, unlike WoW, SC has always been clearly SciFi, if not particularly hard. Though i wonder if they'd go with the trifecta or build it on a fundamentally different system for group content.

[Sorrowseer]

Star wars is fantasy, you need to know the difference between what is and is not sci fi.

[Shadowferal]

I like my science fiction...fictional gobbledygook. "Maintaining the aether flows through the netherarium rods to keep the portal open to the nine hells..." and crazy shit like that.

[arkanon]

It's a stupid argument where you think actual differences are arbitrary and meaningless. If they weren't fundamentally different, then they wouldn't both exist. I'm not going to lay out every difference for you for your idiotic satisfaction, you can figure it out yourself.

But.....the differences often are arbitrary and meaningless. For example, if I explained a concept to you about space ships, lazer swords, lazer guns, planet sized lazer weapons, and people flying with jetpacks, most would say "interesting idea for a science fiction story!" but that is wrong - Starwars is a FANTASY series.

Even something like Avatar - it possesses many science fiction tropes, but is also very firmly planted in the fantasy realm. There is certainly some room for debate with some of these situations, and two things can exist side by side while still overlapping each other heavily. One of you is focusing on the similarities alone, while the other is focusing on the differences only.

The old "these two things wouldnt exist if they were so similar!" falls over pretty quickly when you open your mind and do a little digging - just look at the Greek Vs Roman gods.

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Star wars is fantasy, you need to know the difference between what is and is not sci fi.

Then please explain it to us, if it can so easily be established - Draw a line in the sand for us, and i absolutely guarantee, without a single doubt in my mind, that anyone will be able to find an exception to your rules within a few mins.

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It's not a debate, you simply live in your own personal fantasy world where you can say two different things are the same. It's also not called a hissy fit when someone thinks you're a dumbass for saying stupid shit.

Are you absolutely positive they live in a fantasy world? Maybe its a Science Fiction world, and you are confused?

[Absintheminded]

But.....the differences often are arbitrary and meaningless. For example, if I explained a concept to you about space ships, lazer swords, lazer guns, planet sized lazer weapons, and people flying with jetpacks, most would say "interesting idea for a science fiction story!" but that is wrong - Starwars is a FANTASY series.

Even something like Avatar - it possesses many science fiction tropes, but is also very firmly planted in the fantasy realm. There is certainly some room for debate with some of these situations, and two things can exist side by side while still overlapping each other heavily. One of you is focusing on the similarities alone, while the other is focusing on the differences only.

The old "these two things wouldnt exist if they were so similar!" falls over pretty quickly when you open your mind and do a little digging - just look at the Greek Vs Roman gods.

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Then please explain it to us, if it can so easily be established - Draw a line in the sand for us, and i absolutely guarantee, without a single doubt in my mind, that anyone will be able to find an exception to your rules within a few mins.

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Are you absolutely positive they live in a fantasy world? Maybe its a Science Fiction world, and you are confused?

Um, ok? "Ohh I can name a fantasy that exists in space, I'm smaht".

My original comment, since you have no idea, was that even though there's overlap there's also room for them to exist outside of each other. I gave an example of one, which is hardly necessary given just how ubiquitous these genres are, and yet here we are. I'm arguing with neckbeards that think similarities must mean synonymous.

[TheFirstOnes]

WoW wasn't. WarCraft may have been, but not WoW, since WoW wouldn't exist for another decade.

Also, you forgot Gnomeregan. The SciFi parts started all the way back in 1.0.

I know. I am talking about WC1 as part of WoW, since it’s the first game that gave out the official title “world of warcraft”.

[Auroboros]

Who do you love more, Mum or Dad?

[Linkedblade]

It seems like WoW is turning more and more into a science fiction game instead of a fantasy/adventure game. Personally I don't like this very much. A game like WoW should in my opinion be based much more on "classic" fantasy/adventure elements than space ships and robots. But I'm interested in hearing what the good people of MMO champion think?

Also, I know we have had a lot of Dragons throughout the years, but believe it or not, you can actually make fantasy elements which don't revolve around Dragons :P

I don't think visiting a few of the many afterlives is considered a science fiction trope. It clearly isn't. WoW has varying degrees of steam punk and magic technology. Sci-fi is a subset of fantasy, anyway.

Compare it to Starcraft. WoW is far from being scifi in that comparison. WoW has interplanetary travel, but it all is magical: magical portals or magic-rock powered crafts. Whereas Starcraft has metalclad, fuel powered, factory mass produced spaceships alongside lifeforms that evolved the ability to space travel or aliens that teleport their ships from their home world.

[huth]

There is certainly some room for debate with some of these situations, and two things can exist side by side while still overlapping each other heavily. One of you is focusing on the similarities alone, while the other is focusing on the differences only.

Hell, i'm not even arguing that they don't exist - just that they aren't different enough to be considered seperate genres.

[Absintheminded]

Hell, i'm not even arguing that they don't exist - just that they aren't different enough to be considered seperate genres.

Is Moon fantasy? It's about a space station with an AI and clones. All of these things already exist, and yet you'd argue it be considered fantasy. It's absolutely asinine that someone can see more similarities between LOTR and Sunlight than differences.

[huth]

Is Moon fantasy? It's about a space station with an AI and clones. All of these things already exist, and yet you'd argue it be considered fantasy. It's absolutely asinine that someone can see more similarities between LOTR and Sunlight than differences.

All i see here is the whole thing going way over your head. No, i'm not arguing that any individual SciFi story is Fantasy or vice versa. I'm arguing that it would be trivial to make it so, because they aren't different genres, they're different settings for the same genre.

I'm also not arguing that any two specific stories have more similarities than differences. I'm arguing that Fantasy and SciFi as a whole do.

Your strawmen also fail to be defeated by your claims. Moon could easily be swapped into Fantasy without significant changes by just revealing that the "AI" is a bound spirit and the clones were created through magic. It would maybe actually be more believable because we do not, in fact, have either of these in a fashion that is anywhere close to that story, and the clones in particular are rather unrealistic portrayals based on where science currently is.

[Absintheminded]

All i see here is the whole thing going way over your head. No, i'm not arguing that any individual SciFi story is Fantasy or vice versa. I'm arguing that it would be trivial to make it so, because they aren't different genres, they're different settings for the same genre.

I'm also not arguing that any two specific stories have more similarities than differences. I'm arguing that Fantasy and SciFi as a whole do.

Your strawmen also fail to be defeated by your claims. Moon could easily be swapped into Fantasy without significant changes by just revealing that the "AI" is a bound spirit and the clones were created through magic. It would maybe actually be more believable because we do not, in fact, have either of these in a fashion that is anywhere close to that story, and the clones in particular are rather unrealistic portrayals based on where science currently is.

Again with imaginary changes for the sake of your own silly argument. You appear to be hung up on the fiction part of science fiction, yet things in fantasy will never exist, and the whole premise of scifi is that it could exist. It doesn't matter, you have no intention of seeing things like facts and reason. Take care, gandalf.

[Ophenia]

I prefer sci-fi, but I have to say it doesn't work well in WoW. It is to be noted that Exodar and stuff, I don't really consider that as Sci-Fi elements, those are ships powered by magic more than sheer technology, as far as I know, so they remain in the Fantasy setup.

[huth]

Again with imaginary changes for the sake of your own silly argument. You appear to be hung up on the fiction part of science fiction, yet things in fantasy will never exist, and the whole premise of scifi is that it could exist. It doesn't matter, you have no intention of seeing things like facts and reason. Take care, gandalf.

You haven't exactly provided facts or reason to see. You also clearly skipped the first two paragraphs. So far, the only "argument" you have provided has been "your argument is silly".

For that matter, the premise of SciFi is not "it could exist", and a large part of it is blatantly unrealistic superscience that doesn't agree in the slightest with what we know about it. SciFi is even graded on "hardness", aka how closely it conforms to actual scientific knowledge. Most popular SciFi is very soft, no more realistic that you waking up tomorrow being able to cast spells.

Besides, all of fiction is imaginary. Imaginary changes are the only ones possible.

[Sialina]

You haven't exactly provided facts or reason to see. You also clearly skipped the first two paragraphs. So far, the only "argument" you have provided has been "your argument is silly".

For that matter, the premise of SciFi is not "it could exist", and a large part of it is blatantly unrealistic superscience that doesn't agree in the slightest with what we know about it. SciFi is even graded on "hardness", aka how closely it conforms to actual scientific knowledge. Most popular SciFi is very soft, no more realistic that you waking up tomorrow being able to cast spells.

Besides, all of fiction is imaginary. Imaginary changes are the only ones possible.

I'd like to disagree with you, first off, the story archetype is only loosely related to the genre you are writing/reading, any writing class will tell you that there are 7 basic story archetypes:
1. Overcoming the Monster
2. Rags to Riches
3. The Quest
4. Voyage and Return
5. Comedy
6. Tragedy
7. Rebirth
And you could tell any of these stories in a fantasy setting, or in a sci fi setting, the setting is always set dressing, even though it can greatly enhance the story.
It's perfectly fine to tell a comedy (as in, a story that has some confusion that must be resolved) in space, during a zombie apocalypse, in a medieval setting or in our current modern world, a story about a monster can range from C'thulu rising from the depths to slaying the dragon to overcoming the psychotic bully or the abusive spouse.

As such it's useless to try to use the story archetype as an argument when you subdivide genres further. Star wars could be a love story between Lei and Han, with space as a backdrop, so lord of the rings. Your argument above about changing a fantasy story to a sci fi being easy holds no truth, it is more common to tell a quest story or a voyage story in fantasy and sci fi, but there are plenty of examples of other stories being told.

Take urban fantasy for example, you have Jim Butchers books, most have some sort of quest or overcoming the monster story archetype, but you also have Twilight which is a comedy.

To tell a story that feels fresh authors mix and match elements from different genres, but that doesn't mean definitions are useless.

For most people I know, the word Fantasy evokes a medieval, feeling, someone on page 1 put it in a very nice way earlier.

"The House of Fantasy is built of stone and wood and furnished in High Medieval. Its people travel by horse and galley, fight with sword and spell and battle-axe, communicate by palantir or raven, and break bread with elves and dragons.

The House of Science Fiction is built of duralloy and plastic and furnished in Faux Future. Its people travel by starship and aircar, fight with nukes and tailored germs, communicate by ansible and laser, and break protein bars with aliens.

The House of Horror is built of bone and cobwebs and furnished in Ghastly Gothick. Its people travel only by night, fight with anything that will kill messily, communicate in screams and shrieks and gibbers, and sip blood with vampires and werewolves. "

[huth]

I'd like to disagree with you, first off, the story archetype is only loosely related to the genre you are writing/reading, any writing class will tell you that there are 7 basic story archetypes:

Well, at least you're making proper arguments, although i do not agree with them.

For that matter, i'd add the lovecraftian cosmic horror as another archetype, as its part of it is that the horror cannot be properly overcome. At best, you escape its outcome.

But my point isn't that you can change without changing the story archetype. It's that you can change between the two settings without changing the story. It doesn't matter whether the one ring is a magical or technological device, what matters is that it gets tossed into the volcano because that's the only place it can be destroyed and it is to dangerous to leave be. In a non-Fantasy/SciFi setting this wouldn't make any sense since it's just a ring, so you can't just switch it to that.

People commonly think medieval when they hear Fantasy. But as you say, Urban Fantasy is a thing, so the association is simply incorrect.

Lastly, i'd say Twilight is a blasphemy, not a comedy.