Is Sylvanas the most evil character ever in WoW or just misunderstood?

[MatPandaZ]

So do you. Who says they're going to improve anything or that it is even actually broken?

Both have been stated ingame or via cinematic.

[huth]

Both have been stated ingame or via cinematic.

By people we have no reason to believe are telling us the truth.

[TheFirstOnes]

According to this video, apparently Sylvanas is "just misunderstood, and these new writers are "treating her like a villain" cause they don't understand women, or the abuse they were given throughout their lives", even tho I can give many examples on why Sylvanas is as evil as a MoonGuard players sinstone.

To many, this isn't about some bullshit about "Blizzard not writing women well, or victims of abuse/pain well". This is about people clearly fucking understanding that Sylvanas has always been a bitch...

[Jastall]

First of all killing people ends their suffering. Secondly, evil is in the eye of the beholder. Thirdly, in the universe with no true death - every suffering is just a milestone in the growth of an individual until they get the ultimate prize of eternal life in paradise. It's totally worth it. Necessary even.

But anywho, by your definition, The Player is the evilest entity in World of Warcraft.

I'd say to not cut yourself on that edge, but you went so comically over the top about the whole thing you sorta took the fun out of it.

Do you even know what's happening in the lore anyway? The dead of the entire universe are sent in a place of perpetual suffering where their souls are used as either fuel or slave soldiers for big blue man. The Maw offers no milestone or growth, it's an endpoint, and said end is to be tortured for eternity at best.

[MatPandaZ]

By people we have no reason to believe are telling us the truth.

I'd say we have everything to believe that sylvannas said to anduin. In which she says both.

[Raisei]

I'd say we have everything to believe that sylvannas said to anduin. In which she says both.

Whyyyyy? Sylvanas has been lying through her teeth for years. Why would you believe anything she says? Because she says she will not lie?

Also, even if we assume she was being truthful, what makes you think she does even understand what "improving" means and what gives her the right to unilaterally make that decision for everyone in the universe?

We have no evidence that she even cares about improving things for anyone but herself. She literally said that she doesn't care about the living at the end of BFA, hence why she had no problem having them slaughtered for her plans.

Letting someone like that decide what is an improvement for the universe strikes me as incredibly stupid...

[VladlTutushkin]

I don't see anyone else in the SL wanting things to change, in fact the rest want it to stay exactly the same according to the 'purpose'. So while a git, he is the only one attempting to break the prison and the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

She WANTS to die, but she doesn't want to die a slave. She wants a die and be FREE.

Then Arthas gets to be free. That would be a bummer of the ages wouldnt it? However outside of most obvious sarcasm - her victims then shall be free too. Oh. Wait. They cant be free because they are annihilated and ground into dust in the Maw or so completely broken by torture that they are “gone” essentially.

So, she shall either be crushed and forged into a weapon too, being obliterated into anima or enslaved and become a servant to those freed souls. She took their freedom from them forever, without any hesitation or regret. Her fate shall not be dissimilar to those that she doomed.

Also about the Jailer - whatever system he builds will suck even more then anything they have now. Because he is a violent psychopath hellbent on slavery as the only method of control or interaction with others. He sees everybody else as potential slaves or servants forced to serve out of fear.

[Nyel]

Not really. And not very smart either. Gul'dan takes the crown in my opinion. Chaotic dumb/stupid is really the best way to describe her.

[huth]

I'd say we have everything to believe that sylvannas said to anduin. In which she says both.

No, we have absolutely no reason to believe her whatsoever, especially after she spent the last 6 years lying to us. Nor do we have any reason to believe that what she considers broken or an improvement is something we would also consider to be so.

[Yuli]

alright, the forums frequently have no idea how to discuss sylvanas. the only lore youtuber who discusses sylvanas as the sum of her abject parts is pyromancer, and i highly recommend all his videos on her. i'm going to keep it brief:

there is zero excuse for genocide. period. to the character, death is meaningless though. it's a really poor writing choice because the character understands/believes death as an inevitable next step on the journey, not as the end of all things as we understand it in real life. to the character, her life was totally pointless, since she entered undeath and found that death was just a stop along the journey of existence. it is incredibly twisted: the character sees death as an entire act of simply moving living things to their next destination. after all, TO THE CHARACTER (not to me omg), what's two decades of mortal life when the afterlife/dead existence is going to last for eternity? especially when someone who's never met you judges you on the spot and sends you to said afterlife? to the character, what's the point of any of it?

that's the short version. and i will say, the writers did a horrid job in bfa of painting this as how the character thinks. it was bad, but not so dismal, before bfa, where most of the character's journey from "i'm undead and so are my people but we have a place in this world" (point a) to "everything we do in this phase of existence is rendered pointless when we die because i got sent to hell for something that someone else did to me" (point b) to "now i've seen the entire afterlife and i'm going to make some (in her eyes) sacrifices to actually make this eternal portion of existence less horrid" (point c). character is now at point c, will go somewhere else in 9.1 and beyond i'm sure.

this journey happened mostly in the short stories, books, and off-screen lore events, where the character actually spoke. since i adore the character, i sought out the information about her, but that's not what happened for most of the playerbase. that's my chief criticism of the sylvanas writing: you have to seek out a ton of extra reading, wrap your head around 4D chess from the writers' room, THEN look at the events of the game through the character's eyes to even begin to understand her. that's far too much work for a character, let alone in an MMO, and it hasn't worked very well. but if you take the time to do it, the character is still there and has gone through quite a journey: a very heartbreaking, very grey, and very singular journey. i love sylvanas and i think they're going to do good stuff w her at the end of shadowlands (my dream ending for her is that the folks from azeroth say "you are 1000% not welcome with us after all of your transgressions, but go live your afterlife/with nathanos since you were instrumental in stopping zovaal").

TLDR: the character is incredibly misunderstood and i can't blame the players for it, because the key parts of understanding the character are hidden in novels, short stories, tiny quest texts, and a bunch of incredibly poorly portrayed BFA story beats. the writers have a solid character who i adore, but you have to jump through a million hoops to be here with her rn.

edit: because i'm sure it's the top topic rn and i forgot to address it: why is anduin the person to finally crack her? this one's easy: anduin is the only non-undead character from azeroth to treat sylvanas as a sentient creature, not some repugnant monster. even her own sisters have turned and reviled her (PRE TELDRASSIL, PRE BROKEN SHORE) just for being undead which is something she couldn't control, at all. this is another crucial story point the writers didn't portray in game. it's in war crimes, where vereesa backs out of their plan to kill garrosh at the last second, and sylvanas swears to never try to love again. this is HUUUUGE for the character. her little moon, one of the people she loves most, turns on her at the last second and reviles her existence, even though she didn't choose to become undead. the crux of the character is this horrid circumstance forced upon her that her family, loved ones, and fellow world leaders detest on sight. but anduin? anduin is the only person in the group of world leaders who looks at sylvanas and goes "hey man let's have a conversation." at the gathering, he tries to speak to her about the broken shore, instead of being genn and just using it as easy bait to start a war with her. they haven't explained this yet, but i am 8000% sure that her relation to the jailer starts as a whisper from wrath-legion, then really picks up when she becomes warchief/can't get eyir/has no secure future in place/makes a deal with helya. there is absolutely no way the sylvanas in cataclysm is working with zovaal to bring about the end of all things, full stop. if they don't portray that then they've just made a grave writing error. regardless, back on topic: anduin is the only alliance leader once she becomes warchief who actually wants to find a way to coexist with her. he is pushed post teldrassil to retaliate, but even then says "surrender, or die." anduin is the only leader who understands and practices restorative justice, tbh. anduin does not ever go to the point of deciding to just kill sylvanas on the spot, and is the only person to do so. quote alleria: "i should've killed you when last we met." oh thanks, big sis, i don't see you for millennia and you just wanted to kill me right away (this was before teldrassil). so yes, anduin cracks her because he actually takes a second to try and understand her, instead of just "hordie, me smash." make sense?

yes yes and yes, look at my signature, I don't have anything to add

[VladlTutushkin]

yes yes and yes, look at my signature, I don't have anything to add

Of course... because fuck Alliance, fuck the Horde that didnt wanted to bear a stigma of genocidal monsters, fuck the night elves and horde soldier souls who are now in the Maw suffering probably worst possible agony in the universe, fuck Anduin being turned into an elaborate sock puppet and fuck Tyrande who bears the burden of avenging her people. Fuck generally speaking whole Warcraft universe and its Life and Death cycle! None of that is more important or deserves more validation, praise and love then undead goth emo “kween”.

[MatPandaZ]

Whyyyyy? Sylvanas has been lying through her teeth for years. Why would you believe anything she says? Because she says she will not lie?

Also, even if we assume she was being truthful, what makes you think she does even understand what "improving" means and what gives her the right to unilaterally make that decision for everyone in the universe?

We have no evidence that she even cares about improving things for anyone but herself. She literally said that she doesn't care about the living at the end of BFA, hence why she had no problem having them slaughtered for her plans.

Letting someone like that decide what is an improvement for the universe strikes me as incredibly stupid...

Because it was clearly written in a way that she *is* telling the truth. That she was willing to tell Anduin. The whole point of those shorts was to show that they have some kind of... respect or understanding of each other. If she was lying about it all then I'll be the first to jump on the 'shit writing' bandwagon, until then I'll take the strong narrative hints that she was gloves off at that point.

She doesn't care about the living no, but that could mean she cares about the dead... as in the point the true slavery and abomination begins. Because no matter what you do in life, death comes for all and there is no escaping it. This is a show run by the Winter Queen etc, not the Jailer. Would you sacrifice 100,000 now to save everyone in the future? They have been saying for ages she is 'morally grey' and this is a perfect example of such a decision.

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Then Arthas gets to be free. That would be a bummer of the ages wouldnt it? However outside of most obvious sarcasm - her victims then shall be free too. Oh. Wait. They cant be free because they are annihilated and ground into dust in the Maw or so completely broken by torture that they are “gone” essentially.

So, she shall either be crushed and forged into a weapon too, being obliterated into anima or enslaved and become a servant to those freed souls. She took their freedom from them forever, without any hesitation or regret. Her fate shall not be dissimilar to those that she doomed.

Also about the Jailer - whatever system he builds will suck even more then anything they have now. Because he is a violent psychopath hellbent on slavery as the only method of control or interaction with others. He sees everybody else as potential slaves or servants forced to serve out of fear.

Again, would you kill 100,000 to save every soul in the future? She took their freedom from them yes, to provide freedom from then on. That's the morally grey part of her character.

The ONLY thing we know about the jailer is that that is his role NOW. We have no idea about how the SL got to where it was, and how he was to be locked in the maw. For all we know he was a peace loving hippy who greeted new souls with a smile and a wink until others (winter queen, primus etc) wanted him out the way. It's unlikely to be quite that extreme, but we don't know why he was locked away, why he was 'betrayed' by his brothers and sisters etc. When the cosmo forces are fucked, you are locked away in a deep dark pit and forgotten about, what would you be prepared to do to escape that and revert things? Remember until he went for his XP boost and somehow broke the arbiter he would barely get... if any... souls, and the ones he did were such twisted individuals it would be hard to have sympathy for them.

I'm not saying it's one way or the other. I'm saying that there is enough room in the story for it to not only be the case, but it's highly likely to be. I'd say more so that Sylv has her goal of breaking the prison of life/death in her own interest with the benefit of saving others as a side cause, and that the Jailer has bigger/badder/meaner plans than that.

She just wants to die and for everything to be over (which the one thing I don't understand is why she doesn't just die in the SL as that should kill her off in theory.. that will either be ignored or 'patched' that something something jailer is able to stop her permadying). Personally if I was doomed to immortality as a shell of who you were, and the only way out of it was to genocide a bunch of people, at some point I'd consider it.

[ohwell]

Whyyyyy? Sylvanas has been lying through her teeth for years. Why would you believe anything she says? Because she says she will not lie?

Also, even if we assume she was being truthful, what makes you think she does even understand what "improving" means and what gives her the right to unilaterally make that decision for everyone in the universe?

We have no evidence that she even cares about improving things for anyone but herself. She literally said that she doesn't care about the living at the end of BFA, hence why she had no problem having them slaughtered for her plans.

Letting someone like that decide what is an improvement for the universe strikes me as incredibly stupid...

Lying through her teeth for years? She prefers to tell the truth actually especially when it causes harm.

[Raisei]

Because it was clearly written in a way that she *is* telling the truth. That she was willing to tell Anduin. The whole point of those shorts was to show that they have some kind of... respect or understanding of each other. If she was lying about it all then I'll be the first to jump on the 'shit writing' bandwagon, until then I'll take the strong narrative hints that she was gloves off at that point.

She doesn't care about the living no, but that could mean she cares about the dead... as in the point the true slavery and abomination begins. Because no matter what you do in life, death comes for all and there is no escaping it. This is a show run by the Winter Queen etc, not the Jailer. Would you sacrifice 100,000 now to save everyone in the future? They have been saying for ages she is 'morally grey' and this is a perfect example of such a decision.

She also had an emotional connection to Vareesa and still she lied to her about killing her and her sons to raise them as undead. But I know she is telling the truth, because the Devs basically set it up as her big explanation and said so, but from an in-character perspective there is no reason whatsoever why Anduin should believe her.

The problem with your second point is that it assumes her "improvements" only apply to the realms of death, but that is clearly not the case. She wants to destroy everything and remake it in a way she finds more fair. And as with most despots she doesn't give a damn about all the lifes she ruins with that. Just imagine, she was herself in the Maw for a few minutes and that scared her so much that she was ready to sacrifice anyone and everything to stay alive, now she happily send people there. That shows you how terrible a person she is and only confirms that she should never have the power to make decisions like that for others.

[VladlTutushkin]

Because it was clearly written in a way that she *is* telling the truth. That she was willing to tell Anduin. The whole point of those shorts was to show that they have some kind of... respect or understanding of each other. If she was lying about it all then I'll be the first to jump on the 'shit writing' bandwagon, until then I'll take the strong narrative hints that she was gloves off at that point.

She doesn't care about the living no, but that could mean she cares about the dead... as in the point the true slavery and abomination begins. Because no matter what you do in life, death comes for all and there is no escaping it. This is a show run by the Winter Queen etc, not the Jailer. Would you sacrifice 100,000 now to save everyone in the future? They have been saying for ages she is 'morally grey' and this is a perfect example of such a decision.

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Again, would you kill 100,000 to save every soul in the future? She took their freedom from them yes, to provide freedom from then on. That's the morally grey part of her character.

The ONLY thing we know about the jailer is that that is his role NOW. We have no idea about how the SL got to where it was, and how he was to be locked in the maw. For all we know he was a peace loving hippy who greeted new souls with a smile and a wink until others (winter queen, primus etc) wanted him out the way. It's unlikely to be quite that extreme, but we don't know why he was locked away, why he was 'betrayed' by his brothers and sisters etc. When the cosmo forces are fucked, you are locked away in a deep dark pit and forgotten about, what would you be prepared to do to escape that and revert things? Remember until he went for his XP boost and somehow broke the arbiter he would barely get... if any... souls, and the ones he did were such twisted individuals it would be hard to have sympathy for them.

I'm not saying it's one way or the other. I'm saying that there is enough room in the story for it to not only be the case, but it's highly likely to be. I'd say more so that Sylv has her goal of breaking the prison of life/death in her own interest with the benefit of saving others as a side cause, and that the Jailer has bigger/badder/meaner plans than that.

She just wants to die and for everything to be over (which the one thing I don't understand is why she doesn't just die in the SL as that should kill her off in theory.. that will either be ignored or 'patched' that something something jailer is able to stop her permadying). Personally if I was doomed to immortality as a shell of who you were, and the only way out of it was to genocide a bunch of people, at some point I'd consider it.

And most people of Azeroth who’s relatives (or most of a race) she genocided also have an equal right to obliterate her soul or find another way of repaying her “kindness”.

So yeah, your logic is built around trusting a psychotic narcissist who apparently suffers from a severe case of nihilism and paranoia while dismissing everybody else as... incompetent? To make decisions.

Not going to fly. She dies. Her soul shatters or bound to a sword/broom/whatever else and she suffers proportionally to every single soul she doomed to the Maw. There is no arguing here. We can... fondly remember her AFTER that. Maybe.

[MatPandaZ]

She also had an emotional connection to Vareesa and still she lied to her about killing her and her sons to raise them as undead. But I know she is telling the truth, because the Devs basically set it up as her big explanation and said so, but from an in-character perspective there is no reason whatsoever why Anduin should believe her.

The problem with your second point is that it assumes her "improvements" only apply to the realms of death, but that is clearly not the case. She wants to destroy everything and remake it in a way she finds more fair. And as with most despots she doesn't give a damn about all the lifes she ruins with that. Just imagine, she was herself in the Maw for a few minutes and that scared her so much that she was ready to sacrifice anyone and everything to stay alive, now she happily send people there. That shows you how terrible a person she is and only confirms that she should never have the power to make decisions like that for others.

She goes on and on about life and death, death, what happens with death etc. She doesn't want destroy everything, at what point did the writers or sylv point at that at all? If she wanted the destruction of everything she would have sided with Sargeras and the Legion in Legion. *if* she is right and *if* she manages to succeed in un-breaking the shadowlands then aren't those relatively small amount of lives (which a lot will come out the other end) worth the sacrifice to save the souls for the rest of time? You seem to be missing the point that THAT is EXACTLY what Blizzard meant by Sylv being morally grey? Arthas was morally grey when he purged Stratholme and Sylv is morally grey when she 'purged' azeroth. Both did it for the greater good.

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And most people of Azeroth who’s relatives (or most of a race) she genocided also have an equal right to obliterate her soul or find another way of repaying her “kindness”.

So yeah, your logic is built around trusting a psychotic narcissist who apparently suffers from a severe case of nihilism and paranoia while dismissing everybody else as... incompetent? To make decisions.

Not going to fly. She dies. Her soul shatters or bound to a sword/broom/whatever else and she suffers proportionally to every single soul she doomed to the Maw. There is no arguing here. We can... fondly remember her AFTER that. Maybe.

Everyone else on Azeroth *is* incompetent vs the leaders of the shadowlands. In fact the only way to get even remotely close to any of it was through long laid plans executed by the Jailer. She was incompetent, her competence comes mostly from the power gifted to her from the Jailer. She wouldn't have had a chance vs Arthas to get the helm of dom and split it to open the way.

My logic isn't built around trusting her at all, it's built around how the writers are driving a clear narrative here. My logic is built around the fact that without that drive and reasoning that Sylv is just some evil chad with no motivation and lied fabricating a very clear and obvious motivation that would make a lot of sense and has been hinted at in game and in books since what... legion?

What do you mean there is no arguing here, are you legitimately trying to tell me that you are 100% right and there is no possibility whatsoever that you are wrong? Because that's the kind of arrogance I forgot you get on mmo-c.

[LordVargK]

She's the jailers puppet and nothing with him. Pretty sad villain tbh.

[Dellis0991]

She's evil but not the most evil, for a manipulator she is a rather gullible bitch if she think the Jailer is going to help her with whatever dumbfuckery she has planned.

[Raisei]

She goes on and on about life and death, death, what happens with death etc. She doesn't want destroy everything, at what point did the writers or sylv point at that at all? If she wanted the destruction of everything she would have sided with Sargeras and the Legion in Legion. *if* she is right and *if* she manages to succeed in un-breaking the shadowlands then aren't those relatively small amount of lives (which a lot will come out the other end) worth the sacrifice to save the souls for the rest of time? You seem to be missing the point that THAT is EXACTLY what Blizzard meant by Sylv being morally grey? Arthas was morally grey when he purged Stratholme and Sylv is morally grey when she 'purged' azeroth. Both did it for the greater good.

You realize that all despots, dictators, mass murderers and psychopaths in history always thought they were acting for "The Greater Good". This does not make them "morally grey", it makes them insane for thinking that there could ever be anything good coming out of their evil deeds. In fiction look at Thanos or Grindlewald, the latter of which literally had "For the Greater Good" as his motto while he was was murdering babies.

As for "destroying everything". Did you not listen to Denathrius? He clearly stated that Death will be the only power remaining, if they realize it or not, this will mean the end of our universe.

Also, your comparison between Stratholme and now really does not hold up. Stratholme was already doomed, there was no help possible. The reality Sylvanas wants to destroy is only broken in her eyes and her eyes alone. The Shadowlands worked fine until her new boyfriend broke them to free himself and in the process he doomed billions of souls to eternal torment.

Sylvanas simply does not accept that a person that has commited the crimes she has does not get a happily ever after. Her goal is self-serving and nothing else. She will destroy reality because she feels she deserves better and to hell (literally) with anyone that tries to stop her. She is not complex, she is not morally grey, she is a villain.

[Yuli]

Of course... because fuck Alliance, fuck the Horde that didnt wanted to bear a stigma of genocidal monsters, fuck the night elves and horde soldier souls who are now in the Maw suffering probably worst possible agony in the universe, fuck Anduin being turned into an elaborate sock puppet and fuck Tyrande who bears the burden of avenging her people. Fuck generally speaking whole Warcraft universe and its Life and Death cycle! None of that is more important or deserves more validation, praise and love then undead goth emo “kween”.

You, sir, can't read. What has that to do with my post at all?

Infracted.