{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

To re-use the leadership "roles" I mentioned earlier, Nick Fury was only ever a "strategist", handling high-level strategy like mission selection/targets. And he stepped back from that role a fair bit when Steve turned out to be gifted there, too.

Well like I said, Fury's Role is more akin to "Commander-in-Chief" or a similar position.

Part of the problem is that Steve was a paragon strategist, tactician, and moral center for the Avengers. Losing him means they have three roles to fill, essentially. Not just one.

Oh absolutely. All that and more. Mighty big shoes to fill.

But my overall point here is that Steve's super powers had very little to do with his Leadership position within the Avengers...so the whole concept that the more powerful Avengers won't respect someone that doesn't have a similar power level is just ridiculous.

I agree with you; I have no problem with gay characters/relationships being pictured on-screen, but the need of some people to ship any male/male relationship as a gay romantic one is . . . deeply problematic and toxic. It's just as bad, for the same reasons, when writers can't help but work their way through every single possible male/female pairing in the cast over the course of the show, as if male/female friendships can't exist. Something not true in the MCU, as Natasha has close friendships with both Clint and Steve, and there's never really a hint of romantic heat there ever, in either case.

I really liked how, even when there was sexual tension evident with Natasha and Steve...it was never showed as anything more than attractive people being naturally attracted to each other.

With Clint i feel that if there was ever any romantic interest... it's been dealt with in a mature and adult manner (IE, Clint isn't constantly bitching about being put in the "friendzone"). I also really like how, in contradiction to established norms, she's the one that kind of puts him up on the Pedestal and not because he's so dreamy and sweet and perfect... but simply because he was probably the first person in her life to ever treat her as an actual human being.

The Bruce/Natasha romance to me felt a little forced...and I think at least some of that is because they were purposefully trying to avoid the Steve/Clint situations with her and they overcorrected. I'm not opposed to the idea of Bruce and Nat (since Betty Ross is, for whatever reason, not available)....just thought it could have been approached with a bit more deftness.

Side note: Apparently the Russo brothers have stated that Betty Ross was one of those killed by the Snap and restored by the Blip. Also, allegedly, Liv Tyler has been approached to return as Betty in the She-Hulk series.

[PACOX]

https://www.cbr.com/falcon-and-winte...atched-series/

Matched watched opening on Disney+.

Are these two the dark horses of the MCU?

[sykoex]

https://www.cbr.com/falcon-and-winte...atched-series/

Most watched opening on Disney+.

Are these two the dark horses of the MCU?

Holy crap.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

https://www.cbr.com/falcon-and-winte...atched-series/

Matched watched opening on Disney+.

Are these two the dark horses of the MCU?

That would be more impressive if Disney+ weren't less than 2 year old.

What it really shows is that Disney+'s highest value IP's are performing as expected.

[PrimiOne]

The Bruce/Natasha romance to me felt a little forced...and I think at least some of that is because they were purposefully trying to avoid the Steve/Clint situations with her and they overcorrected. I'm not opposed to the idea of Bruce and Nat (since Betty Ross is, for whatever reason, not available)....just thought it could have been approached with a bit more deftness.

Side note: Apparently the Russo brothers have stated that Betty Ross was one of those killed by the Snap and restored by the Blip. Also, allegedly, Liv Tyler has been approached to return as Betty in the She-Hulk series.

The Bruce/Nat affair is one of the storylines that got gutted when the MCU changed its course after Joss Whedon went out. It's important to remember this was going to be Whedonverse (not as in directing everything but yes about setting the road) but the complex production of Age of Ultron teared it all apart ( as every director who has worked in the MCU say: you don't work WITH Disney....you work FOR Disney).

We can see it everywhere but the most blatantly obvious situation is the Hulk's one: almost non present in the Infinity Saga ( and I mean Hulk not Bruce Banner that is a different character).

Now if you travel back in time, find me at the door of the theatre after seeing AoU and tell me Natasha is gonna die in the end chapters two things would happen: first I would call you names for the spoiler, second I would say:"Ohhh now I see where are we going".

Because that relationship was clearly made for an epic moment of: "Hulk Smash!!! Hulk angry!!". You build that romance, you kill Natasha and then we see the barely hinted moment of Worldbreaker Hulk going full berseker with eyes injected in gamma radiation trashing half of Thanos army. You shouldn't have made Hulk angry dude....

That moment was gonna be character-defining moment of Hulk but , like many others in the dissapointing End Game, it was a lot opportunity.

But hey....he got so angry he threw a bench into a lake. That's the biggest "Hulk Angry" moment we got.

[Endus]

https://www.cbr.com/falcon-and-winte...atched-series/

Matched watched opening on Disney+.

Are these two the dark horses of the MCU?

Beating Wandavision I'll honestly put down to people being unsure about whether these shows would be a "thing", or just cheap-ass filler. And Wandavision proved they're a "thing". So everyone's jumping on board for Round 2.

Possibly also that people realize how bad spoilers are gonna be. I held off starting Wandavision for a week or so, before realizing the spoilers were gonna get to me. I watched F&WS on day 1 because I got in that habit with Wandavision. Not sure if my watching pattern would "count" for what they're talking about here, for Wandavision, but it would for F&WS.

Because that relationship was clearly made for an epic moment of: "Hulk Smash!!! Hulk angry!!". You build that romance, you kill Natasha and then we see the barely hinted moment of Worldbreaker Hulk going full berseker with eyes injected in gamma radiation trashing half of Thanos army. You shouldn't have made Hulk angry dude....

That moment was gonna be character-defining moment of Hulk but , like many others in the dissapointing End Game, it was a lot opportunity.

But hey....he got so angry he threw a bench into a lake. That's the biggest "Hulk Angry" moment we got.

Honestly, I'm kind of happy they went this way. Their romance wasn't really a deep love connection, not as presented. It was two incredibly damaged and self-hating people finding each other and helping them come to terms with each other. More about realizing they CAN love again, that they ARE worth someone's love, than it really was about any flame they held for each other. They were tender and affectionate with each other, and maybe it would have developed into something that burned a little hotter, but not every romance works out that way.

And if we take that interpretation, it means Bruce hasn't lost the love of his life, *just* someone he was incredibly close to and who helped save him from himself. But there's a chance he'll find someone new, and it won't cheapen what he had with Nat; it'll only happen because of what he had with Nat.

If we make that relationship more about personal growth, it's perfectly fine as we saw it.

Also, need to point out that character deaths in stories only "matter" when the audience is upset because that character's story isn't tied up and there's stuff left undone. That's not "bad writing", that's good writing. It's necessary. The alternative is a writer who just kills off characters they're done with because it clears the playing field a bit. That's lazy, cheap writing, and losing that character doesn't hit the audience hard at all, because everything was already tied up and they don't really lose anything by their dying. Bruce losing Nat when there was a chance they could become a "thing" is one of several threads that makes her death "matter". Also Hawkeye, and particularly because, in that moment, Hawkeye had lost everything and had nothing to live for; if he'd died to get the Soul Stone it would have been exactly that cheap. That's sort of the entire point of that scene; Hawkeye's fighting to kill himself because he feels he's "done". Natasha's fighting to sacrifice herself to save her friend from himself. Hers was the more-noble sacrifice, and the right choice for the writers to go with as a result.

[PrimiOne]

Also, need to point out that character deaths in stories only "matter" when the audience is upset because that character's story isn't tied up and there's stuff left undone. That's not "bad writing", that's good writing. It's necessary. The alternative is a writer who just kills off characters they're done with because it clears the playing field a bit. That's lazy, cheap writing, and losing that character doesn't hit the audience hard at all, because everything was already tied up and they don't really lose anything by their dying. Bruce losing Nat when there was a chance they could become a "thing" is one of several threads that makes her death "matter". Also Hawkeye, and particularly because, in that moment, Hawkeye had lost everything and had nothing to live for; if he'd died to get the Soul Stone it would have been exactly that cheap. That's sort of the entire point of that scene; Hawkeye's fighting to kill himself because he feels he's "done". Natasha's fighting to sacrifice herself to save her friend from himself. Hers was the more-noble sacrifice, and the right choice for the writers to go with as a result.

I am not dissapointed by Nat's death mostly because It came as no surprise. A mix of the studio and the actors decission but we all knew that ,being figuratively like Steve or explicit like Tony and Nat ,this was their ending chapter. The only question were "Retirement or death?" and "When?".

I am dissapointed because that was the perfect narrative tool to make one of the most relevant and beloved characters of the Marvel universe finally shine: to do a World War Hulk that would have made people go crazy.

Everyting pointed at this:

1. His ,almost, complete disappearance in Infinity War ( I thought: "That's because they are reserving him for a key rol in End Game" LOL Little did I know)
2. Natasha's death.
3. The "Banner is in charge" state. ALL the Zen he achieved was gonna break the very moment an emotion he could not handle ( Nat's death) happened and then...Banner is no more in charge. Now Hulk Smash.

It's like they were setting all the steps ...and then they did not deliver. I can only say: "Puny writters made PrimiOne angry".

But I'll leave it at this because A) This is a "Falcon+WS" thread and I'm derailiing and B) Some of you is gonna finally spoil me something LOL.

[JDL49]

He does have income, he even points that out to the banker. He is on government contracts, but only since he came back, of course. And that's not good enough to get a loan there.

::sigh:: Try and get a loan with no cosigner and lousy collateral when you've only had a job for a month or two. It won't happen.

What's that you say ? He had loads of experience before the blip ! And that's the problem. All of that history was in a different world. It only has limited application in the post blip world. They really need to go into this more. The societal upheavals during and after the blip were HUGE.

[RobertoCarlos]

::sigh:: Try and get a loan with no cosigner and lousy collateral when you've only had a job for a month or two. It won't happen.

What's that you say ? He had loads of experience before the blip ! And that's the problem. All of that history was in a different world. It only has limited application in the post blip world. They really need to go into this more. The societal upheavals during and after the blip were HUGE.

Ah yes the subject we've all been waiting for in our superhero drama, the inner workings of loan applications.

I suppose it is good timing as costs of buying a home continue to skyrocket.

Marvel superheroes never improve the world anyway, otherwise Hank Pym would have been using his technology to remove famine from the world, same with stark giving free energy to the world. But instead Hank Pym is bitter he got fired and Stark is too busy throwing out one liners to change the world in a meaningful way. They simply keep the status quo

[formerShandalay]

::sigh:: Try and get a loan with no cosigner and lousy collateral when you've only had a job for a month or two. It won't happen.

What's that you say ? He had loads of experience before the blip ! And that's the problem. All of that history was in a different world. It only has limited application in the post blip world. They really need to go into this more. The societal upheavals during and after the blip were HUGE.

I hope they'll go into the situation after the snap, before the blip a bit more. So far we've heard people say it was absolutely horrible and others seem to think it was more like paradise. The former were people from organizations that should care more about law and order (Hayward from SWORD and Torres from the US government), the latter are the Flagsmashers (and I guess there's some more). Maybe we can get some glimpses during the Hawkeye series, he lived through it after all. Or maybe they'll give us a mini-series that deals with the events during that time, I could imagine there are some good stories to be told there.

[AnnabellaAnthea]

Are they wonderful?

[RobertoCarlos]

Are they wonderful?

Yes they are wonderful. They have a big ole gay time together

[ProphetFlume]

I hope they'll go into the situation after the snap, before the blip a bit more. So far we've heard people say it was absolutely horrible and others seem to think it was more like paradise. The former were people from organizations that should care more about law and order (Hayward from SWORD and Torres from the US government), the latter are the Flagsmashers (and I guess there's some more). Maybe we can get some glimpses during the Hawkeye series, he lived through it after all. Or maybe they'll give us a mini-series that deals with the events during that time, I could imagine there are some good stories to be told there.

Interesting catch, and the second episode punctuates that point.

I don’t really want to go deep into the 5 years unless it’s to watch a character grow. Like an I am legend thing: we meet them day one, two, three, with time jumps to a month, year later, but less detail is probably best as it’s going to get picked apart no matter how much effort goes into it.

[JDL49]

I don’t really want to go deep into the 5 years unless it’s to watch a character grow. Like an I am legend thing: we meet them day one, two, three, with time jumps to a month, year later, but less detail is probably best as it’s going to get picked apart no matter how much effort goes into it.

Well I want that backstory. So we'll just have to disagree.

[eschatological]

It seems like they're setting up the Flagsmashers to be the not-quite-so-villainous now, but "freedom fighters".......stealing vaccines that were otherwise not gonna go to people? Still unsure on the vaccine storyline.

So that obviously means at some point Falcon and WS will team up against them and the Lawful Neutral John Walker and the "Power Brokers." They stressed heavily the point at the end of the episode that Walker and his sidekick have rules of engagement, and kind of larger scale, government-based motivations.

Also, the reveal that super soldiers have been around since the Korean War (the mid 50s) opens up a whole raft of issues and possibilities.

Also, pretty much confirms the "struggle to be a black Captain America storyline" I thought they were hinting at with said super soldier being black and mistreated (unlike Cap) and the cop scene immediately after.

[Ayirasi]

Still surprised by the quality of the action.

So... new Cap is a normal dude, and now there are a bunch of super soldiers. Nice.

Lectering Zemo is interesting.

[eschatological]

Well seems obvious to me his "fall from grace" is when he insists on getting the super soldier serum to combat the Flagsmashers, and then he outrights starts killing people. Seems to be what him pulling a gun and shooting a dude seems to be about: a reflection on who he will be when he's superpowered. The cinematography was pretty telegraphed on that, they zoomed in and "lingered" (as much as you can linger on pulling a gun in a fight scene) on it when he pulls the gun out.

[Jotaux]

The gun would be an odd plot point conidering Rogers, Sam, and Bucky have all used guns in the mcu. They did linger for a long time.

[Something Wicked]

Well seems obvious to me his "fall from grace" is when he insists on getting the super soldier serum to combat the Flagsmashers, and then he outrights starts killing people. Seems to be what him pulling a gun and shooting a dude seems to be about: a reflection on who he will be when he's superpowered. The cinematography was pretty telegraphed on that, they zoomed in and "lingered" (as much as you can linger on pulling a gun in a fight scene) on it when he pulls the gun out.

Y-You do know that Steve Rogers used a gun, right? Quite often, too. You... you do realize that, yeah?

Batman is the (completely and utterlycharacter who refuses to use a gun.

i.imgur.com/K3hiuXP.jpg
qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7d17a38db4d844d3e0e7077be48281c3
media.comicbook.com/files/2011/09/captain-america-firing-guns.jpg
media.comicbook.com/files/2011/09/captain-america-gun-262x300.jpg

Just in case you need a few references that took about 0.003 seconds to find.

[eschatological]

I know that, but, like I said, from a cinematic perspective, they lingered on the gun quite a bit.

I'm guessing Falcon/WS will somehow find out the Flagsmashers are up to some noble anarchy or some shit like that. At that point, they'll trust Walker, and tell him that info. And he'll execute them regardless.