Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Pony Soldier]

Everybody must look like a hardcore liberal from your POV I guess..

Glad to see you're okay though

And I guess everyone from your POV who opposes your liberal opinions and beliefs is an alt right, conspiracy theorist, terrorist, white supremacist, racist right? Am I missing any titles? I might've forgotten some.

[Endus]

So Wikipedia and Politifact are the best sources you guys have?

They're both fine.

They're tertiary sources so they're not something you'd cite in a term paper, but that's not because of a lack of reliability, and anyone making that claim has no academic training whatsoever.

If you guys want to go on "studies" then I present this article that questions the credibility of Politifact. Feel free to read the whole article (I know most of you won't) but here's a quote from it "Now comes a study from the George Mason University Center for Media and Public Affairs that demonstrates empirically that PolitiFact.org, one of the nation's leading "fact checkers," finds that Republicans are dishonest in their claims three times as often as Democrats." So according to that it seems as though Democrats never tell a lie. I guess republicans are the only ones that lie and spread disinformation.

1> That's an opinion piece, not a journalist's reporting.
2> It's always telling when they won't link to the study in question.
3> I'll do that work, here we go; https://cmpa.gmu.edu/study-media-fac...cans-lie-more/ And oh look, the study doesn't claim that there's any bias at Politifact, it claims Republicans lie more.

So yes; you linked an article that misrepresented a study that actually did confirm that, to quote the study itself, "Republicans lie more".

Here's a little summary of a book written by Stephen P. Halbrook about Nazi Germany gun control who holds a Ph.D in both philosophy and law and won 3 constitutional law cases in the US Supreme Court. If it's not enough for you guys, find the book in your local library or somewhere and read up on it. I know none of you will because none of you actually care about learning what the facts are and just want to stay in your emotional bubbles but I figured I would at least offer it.

And? Halbrook was cited in the Wikipedia article; historians have pretty much wholesale debunked his work, because he approached it not from a scholarly historical approach, but from a gun-rights advocacy approach, and his historical rigor was very, very lacking. Just because a book got published doesn't mean it's actually worth a damn.

And I am willing to admit I'm wrong when presented with actual facts from credible non-biased sources. I'm even willing to admit my sources are wrong if presented with actual credible evidence proving it. Although if someone links me an article from Wikipedia I'm just going to laugh and shake my head.

Well, we'll see. Given that your one study "source" was actually an opinion piece that lied about the actual study, directly and blatantly.

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There's literally no analog to the current situation in the US and it's an extremely bad-faith argument.

Like, the biggest central problem with Halbrook's book that Grubenwolf linked to is that it focuses in exclusively on how gun control was applied to Jewish citizens and other enemies of the State; something like around 1% of the German population at the time. It ignores completely how gun control was changed for the remaining overwhelming majority of Germans, where as you mention, it was broadly loosened and gun ownership increased. It's a common tactic among fascists and authoritarians; arm your supporters, disarm your dissenters, and let those supporters aid in the suppression of the dissenters.

Ignoring this means you're not making a scholarly assessment of the facts, you're cherry-picking to push an agenda despite the facts.

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And I guess everyone from your POV who opposes your liberal opinions and beliefs is an alt right, conspiracy theorist, terrorist, white supremacist, racist right? Am I missing any titles? I might've forgotten some.

Persecution complexes aren't healthy, dude.

[Not A Cat]

My only question is what are we supposed to do to prevent these mass shootings from happening if not for gun reform? Is there evidence that arming more "good people" is a practical solution? On the surface it surely doesn't seem to be, but I honestly don't know what we're supposed to do to stop this.

One big thing I can think of is healthcare reform to allow people to receive mental health services as that seems to be a common link among these tragedies.

I don't know, I'm just so sick of hearing about innocent people being murdered and I'm sick of people saying to not "politicize it" when something like this requires a political solution.

[Noxx79]

And I guess everyone from your POV who opposes your liberal opinions and beliefs is an alt right, conspiracy theorist, terrorist, white supremacist, racist right? Am I missing any titles? I might've forgotten some.

Well, you are a liar and a conspiracy theorist, so those fit.

Stop using emotion to fuel your fantasies. Logically, there is no connection between NaZi “gun control” and what’s being suggested.

Your just trying to Godwin to appeal to emotions. Look at reality.

Or you can cry and be a victim as usual.

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So Wikipedia and Politifact are the best sources you guys have? If you guys want to go on "studies" then I present this article that questions the credibility of Politifact. Feel free to read the whole article (I know most of you won't) but here's a quote from it "Now comes a study from the George Mason University Center for Media and Public Affairs that demonstrates empirically that PolitiFact.org, one of the nation's leading "fact checkers," finds that Republicans are dishonest in their claims three times as often as Democrats." So according to that it seems as though Democrats never tell a lie. I guess republicans are the only ones that lie and spread disinformation.

Here's a little summary of a book written by Stephen P. Halbrook about Nazi Germany gun control who holds a Ph.D in both philosophy and law and won 3 constitutional law cases in the US Supreme Court. If it's not enough for you guys, find the book in your local library or somewhere and read up on it. I know none of you will because none of you actually care about learning what the facts are and just want to stay in your emotional bubbles but I figured I would at least offer it.

So you guys can call me liar but since you guys like to go off of "studies" I can call your sources bullshit since one, according to this study, Politifact is a biased site and the other is..well it's Wikipedia not much has to be said there. These are literally the first results that pop up too in Google so I'm guessing you guys just took the very first results that came up and called them fact because they were "studies" and because Wikipedia said so. You guys would be laughed at if you presented these sources as your evidence in an actual debate or in a court setting. The fact that you guys just believe these "fact-checkers" without question is pathetic and quite scary.

And I am willing to admit I'm wrong when presented with actual facts from credible non-biased sources. I'm even willing to admit my sources are wrong if presented with actual credible evidence proving it. Although if someone links me an article from Wikipedia I'm just going to laugh and shake my head.

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Yeah it's always a gangbang when 99% of the people on this site are hardcore liberals. Makes arguments pointless and tiring too which is why I sometimes never respond.

Not a study, are you able to read?

So you believe that republicans and democrats lie on an exactly 50/50 margin?

Another cry to emotion with no evidence back you up. No surprise.

[muto]

My only question is what are we supposed to do to prevent these mass shootings from happening if not for gun reform? Is there evidence that arming more "good people" is a practical solution? On the surface it surely doesn't seem to be, but I honestly don't know what we're supposed to do to stop this.

One big thing I can think of is healthcare reform to allow people to receive mental health services as that seems to be a common link among these tragedies.

I don't know, I'm just so sick of hearing about innocent people being murdered and I'm sick of people saying to not "politicize it" when something like this requires a political solution.

I mean the bigger issue like you said is mental illness. Apparently this guy got bullied a lot when he was younger, so he became anti-social and eventually snapped. If people didn’t shit on him for half his life this likely wouldn’t have happened. More needs to be done to support victims of abuse.

[Elegiac]

I mean the bigger issue like you said is mental illness. Apparently this guy got bullied a lot when he was younger, so he became anti-social and eventually snapped. If people didn’t shit on him for half his life this likely wouldn’t have happened. More needs to be done to support victims of abuse.

Cool, why do y'all oppose gun control measures that would prevent felons, abusers, and mentally ill people from having access to firearms then? Why do y'all oppose universal healthcare that would enable the mentally ill to easily seek treatment?

Hint: It's because you don't actually view mass shootings as a problem.

[Endus]

I mean the bigger issue like you said is mental illness. Apparently this guy got bullied a lot when he was younger, so he became anti-social and eventually snapped. If people didn’t shit on him for half his life this likely wouldn’t have happened. More needs to be done to support victims of abuse.

Mental illness gets too much blame.

I'm not gonna minimize its impact; I've been open that I've got ADHD and have dealt with anxiety issues in the past. I've got family with schizophrenia, even. Mental illness can be absolutely disabling and serious. That's not what I'm arguing, here.

What I'm arguing is that a lot of people are just petty, cruel, vicious, evil fucks. That isn't "mental illness", it's them being truly awful people. They aren't "sick", they're just bad people.

Case in point here; being bullied and becoming somewhat anti-social? Yeah, I've lived through that myself. Eventually "snapping" and taking it out on innocents in a mass murder attack? Nope. That's evil fuckhead territory. The bullying didn't cause that, in any way whatsoever. It's just the excuse a self-absorbed, amoral fuckhead uses to pat themselves on their back for victimizing innocents. The kinds of people who'd engage in a mass-murder spree are not the victims of their past. They're the aggressors of their present.

It's like, to use a "lighter" example, a dad who beats his kids. Because his dad beat him, and so forth. That's just an abusive shitbird of a human being who gets his jollies by hurting children. His own abuse didn't force his path, it just let him see abuse as a "valid" tool that he was definitely gonna make use of. He's not the victim, now that he's the abuser.

Sure, psychopathy and sociopathy exist, and are mental illnesses. Most of these fuckheads aren't sick, though. Just bastards.

[Slant]

Treating mental heallth issues doesn't exclude controlling the tools for these mass shootings. You can work on both fronts to increase the effectiveness of the other problem.

[Streetbelt]

My only question is what are we supposed to do to prevent these mass shootings from happening if not for gun reform? Is there evidence that arming more "good people" is a practical solution? On the surface it surely doesn't seem to be, but I honestly don't know what we're supposed to do to stop this.

One big thing I can think of is healthcare reform to allow people to receive mental health services as that seems to be a common link among these tragedies.

I don't know, I'm just so sick of hearing about innocent people being murdered and I'm sick of people saying to not "politicize it" when something like this requires a political solution.

People feel the same as you about other issues. There's no DUI megathread though. Drunk pieces of shit kill people on the daily but that isn't political like guns are so not pushed in the news.

Even if these things didn't have access to guns they will use vehicles or other methods. They might kill less or they might find more success with other methods. Can't really take cars out of society either. Fact is if you take something away it may only change how many die, but rest assured these people will still kill. Need to find a way to do something about the people that do this crap in order to save the most lives.

[Elegiac]

Even if these things didn't have access to guns they will use vehicles or other methods.

Boy, have I got something to tell you about how vehicle ownership is regulated compared to firearms in this country.

I don't think y'all would like being required to have firearm liability insurance, though.

[Streetbelt]

Boy, have I got something to tell you about how vehicle ownership is regulated compared to firearms in this country.

I don't think y'all would like being required to have firearm liability insurance, though.

People drive without insurence all the time. It's easy to pick up a junker for $1000 or rent a big uhaul. Hell you can steal a vehicle if you are going to use it for some crime anyway.

You can fail a background check for a gun but still get the uhaul.

[Felya]

And I guess everyone from your POV who opposes your liberal opinions and beliefs is an alt right, conspiracy theorist, terrorist, white supremacist, racist right? Am I missing any titles? I might've forgotten some.

It’s not an opinion... How was Hitler against gun ownership, when he defied WW1 resolution by arming Germany?

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There's literally no analog to the current situation in the US and it's an extremely bad-faith argument.

Faith is doing a lot of lifting in that statement... you are being too charitable.

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I mean the bigger issue like you said is mental illness. Apparently this guy got bullied a lot when he was younger, so he became anti-social and eventually snapped. If people didn’t shit on him for half his life this likely wouldn’t have happened. More needs to be done to support victims of abuse.

We have an entire political party that considers bulling, a virtue signaling cause. Same party that has issues with both, universal coverage that includes mental health and using police resources on mental health professionals, instead of cops being responsible.

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Mental illness gets too much blame.

It’s an excuse without meaning... What person kills random strangers and doesn’t have mental illness, in the layman way being applied here?

[Endus]

It’s an excuse without meaning... What person kills random strangers and doesn’t have mental illness, in the layman way being applied here?

That's kind of what I'm getting at. The "layman's definition" is just wrong and is the entire problem.

You don't have to be mentally ill to kill someone. Just a selfish bastard with a propensity for violence. Being a bad person is far more likely than mental illness. Conflating the two is how we stigmatize mental illness unfairly.

[Theodarzna]

And I guess everyone from your POV who opposes your liberal opinions and beliefs is an alt right, conspiracy theorist, terrorist, white supremacist, racist right? Am I missing any titles? I might've forgotten some.

To paraphrase good sir Marx, the Proles should never disarm.



Liberals however do have a managerial fetish for controlling and regulating peoples ever behavior, guns are just another thing the "social betters" can deprive from the rabble the mean to administrate over.

[Elegiac]

To paraphrase good sir Marx, the Proles should never disarm.

Cool, an appeal to authority fallacy for an authority figure you don't even like. Lol.

I'm not sure why you think the "who cares what a bunch of dead dudes think about guns" point regarding the Founding Fathers would be waived in the case of Marx when they can be equally irrelevant regarding modern firearm ownership.

[Edge-]

Cool, an appeal to authority fallacy for an authority figure you don't even like. Lol.

I'm not sure why you think the "who cares what a bunch of dead dudes think about guns" point regarding the Founding Fathers would be waived in the case of Marx when they can be equally irrelevant regarding modern firearm ownership.

It's also a good thing that the discussion isn't around mass-disarmament but rather regulation. Weird that people keep thinking wanting some additional protections in place and something like, say, requiring a basic safety class and a license to own guns is the same as taking away guns entirely.

[Felya]

It's also a good thing that the discussion isn't around mass-disarmament but rather regulation. Weird that people keep thinking wanting some additional protections in place and something like, say, requiring a basic safety class and a license to own guns is the same as taking away guns entirely.

If we had more people posting in support of guns, it would be about mass-disarmament... because NRA and pundits pushing this bullshit...

[Moadar]

It's also a good thing that the discussion isn't around mass-disarmament but rather regulation. Weird that people keep thinking wanting some additional protections in place and something like, say, requiring a basic safety class and a license to own guns is the same as taking away guns entirely.

The same argument against voter ID applys to all that. You are restricting the lower class from their right by requiring things that they may not be able to do due to numerous reasons.

[Felya]

Liberals however do have a managerial fetish for controlling and regulating peoples ever behavior, guns are just another thing the "social betters" can deprive from the rabble the mean to administrate over.

This doesn’t make any sense... I live in WA state... pretty fucking liberal... I bought and oz of pot yesterday, in a store... I can also do the same with a gun and you can get an abortion without jumping through religious hoops...

Why exactly is regulation on guns, the only thing that matters?

[Noxx79]

The same argument against voter ID applys to all that. You are restricting the lower class from their right by requiring things that they may not be able to do due to numerous reasons.

Except a single vote can’t kill anyone, whereas a gun can kill many.
I get the point, but hate the analogy.