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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ah, the superior judgment of hindsight. We should let the reddit crowd run the planet. They seem to have the best ideas. And they know everything. It's amazing how they are not already ruling the planet with their superior knowledge.
    This is not the brilliant refutation you want to believe it is.

    "Hindsight" is looking back at centuries of abuse by the police and saying "hey, maybe we should do something about this"
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  2. #362
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    It's always fascinating to hear that people think police should be held to a lower standard than the general public. Like...you realize that stuff like kidnapping someone for 4 hours and facing no repercussions for it is exactly why police are "demonized"...right?
    Especially when the excuses for it we've seen thus far are:

    - They know what they're doing, how dare you as a civilian tell them how to do their jobs,
    - <insert ticking time bomb fallacy here>
    - They can't be expected to respect people's civil liberties because there might be accomplices in the crowd,
    - People should be fine with their civil liberties being ignored because the police prevent them from getting murdered,
    - Yes, four hours is unreasonable but they must have had a good reason for doing it because they're police right?
    - What even is reasonable suspicion, lol.

    No, actually, I don't think there's any reason to give Cherokee County PD the benefit of the doubt in this situation especially when, again, the first guy they chose to put in front of the camera has anti-asian social media posts.

    Callous indifference is a form of malice, y'all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    True, but the media presents the knowledge within a certain framework, which may lead to the reader down to a certain conclusion.
    You think people need the media to lead them to the thought that the murder of 6 asian women might be race related?
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  4. #364
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Fire the officers? For this? Have you any sense of proportionality? I get it, police brutality is a thing, and racism is a thing. But what's also is a thing is good cop morale being at an all time low, because they are being demonized and vilified to a point where people like you ask for their jobs, because they let a dude wait 4 instead of 1 hour... sure. All of the guys in uniform have nothing better to do than pull a prank on that dude. They got together and said, hey, next mass shooting, we're gonna prank one of the Mexicans and let him sit in the car for four hours, omg that's hilarious.

    Yeah, very likely...
    Oh, hey, "proportionality". The excuse always brought up to explain why cops face no consequences for their ethical failures and outright criminal acts.

    If I held a kid in detention without justifiable reason, as a teacher, you bet your ass I'd get fired. Or if there's any "he said, they said" complaints of ethical transgressions, even if they're probably false, unless I can unequivocally disprove them completely. And so on. Real tired of cop supporters claiming that basic ethical standards and enforcement are somehow an unfair imposition on police.


  5. #365
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    You think people need the media to lead them to the thought that the murder of 6 asian women might be race related?
    No, I think people already have that assumption, but one would hope that most people would wait and see what's what. The media however plays on that assumption and galvanizes it. Well, the media and other institutions as well apparently.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    No, I think people already have that assumption, but one would hope that most people would wait and see what's what. The media however plays on that assumption and galvanizes it. Well, the media and other institutions as well apparently.
    How dare the media frame the murder of 6 Asian women in the context of the mounting escalation of anti asian hate-crimes over the past year!
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  7. #367
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    How dare the media frame the murder of 6 Asian women in the context of the mounting escalation of anti asian hate-crimes over the past year!
    So despite the ethnicity of the victims not being the murderer's motive, it's still acceptable to frame that way.

  8. #368
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    So despite the ethnicity of the victims not being the murderer's motive
    Pretty sure that viewing Asian women as a sexual temptation has a lot to do with their ethnicity, bud.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    So despite the ethnicity of the victims not being the murderer's motive, it's still acceptable to frame that way.
    I believe the media has been very upfront with the shooter's claims that his motive was not specifically anti-asian racism.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    So despite the ethnicity of the victims not being the murderer's motive, it's still acceptable to frame that way.
    You would have us believe it's just a coincidence?

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    This is not the brilliant refutation you want to believe it is.

    "Hindsight" is looking back at centuries of abuse by the police and saying "hey, maybe we should do something about this"
    Sure, come back with an alternative.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    It's always fascinating to hear that people think police should be held to a lower standard than the general public. Like...you realize that stuff like kidnapping someone for 4 hours and facing no repercussions for it is exactly why police are "demonized"...right?
    The general public? I've waited longer than 4 hours for my new passport... not saying it's the same, but waiting is part of life in modern society. So your logic is really not helping you.
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  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I believe the media has been very upfront with the shooter's claims that his motive was not specifically anti-asian racism.
    Not true at all; Race-baiting media's 'rush to motive' after mass shootings is exploitation at its worst

    "The Atlanta shooter blamed a specific race of people for his problems, and then murdered them because of it. If that’s not racism, then the word has no meaning," Comedy Central host Trevor Noah declared.

    Ah, but that's just a comic, right? Pay him no mind.

    But just one tweet with video of Noah's comments was viewed by more than 1.2 million people online, including more than 15,000 retweets and 45,000 likes. Hundreds of thousands also tuned into "The Daily Show" that night.

    Traditional media also rushed to motive, most notably the Washington Post, which ran (checks notes) 16 stories using a hate crime angle, while the New York Times ran nine under the same unproven narrative. The White House also jumped in as well, with Press Secretary Jen Psaki pointing the finger at Donald Trump.

    And we've seen this movie before — most notably with African American actor Jussie Smollett, who claimed he was the victim of a hate crime in 2019 after being attacked by two MAGA-hat wearing men who happened to be out at 2:00 am during a polar vortex with a noose handy.

    Of course, the story quickly fell apart. No one who treated Smollett's hoax as absolute fact apologized or faced accountability.

    And here we are again, with some family members of the Atlanta victims pleading with the media not to make this about race. Those pleas are being ignored.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Sure, come back with an alternative.
    Holding Cops accountable for their transgressions is the alternative.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Not true at all; Race-baiting media's 'rush to motive' after mass shootings is exploitation at its worst

    "The Atlanta shooter blamed a specific race of people for his problems, and then murdered them because of it. If that’s not racism, then the word has no meaning," Comedy Central host Trevor Noah declared.

    Ah, but that's just a comic, right? Pay him no mind.

    But just one tweet with video of Noah's comments was viewed by more than 1.2 million people online, including more than 15,000 retweets and 45,000 likes. Hundreds of thousands also tuned into "The Daily Show" that night.

    Traditional media also rushed to motive, most notably the Washington Post, which ran (checks notes) 16 stories using a hate crime angle, while the New York Times ran nine under the same unproven narrative. The White House also jumped in as well, with Press Secretary Jen Psaki pointing the finger at Donald Trump.

    And we've seen this movie before — most notably with African American actor Jussie Smollett, who claimed he was the victim of a hate crime in 2019 after being attacked by two MAGA-hat wearing men who happened to be out at 2:00 am during a polar vortex with a noose handy.

    Of course, the story quickly fell apart. No one who treated Smollett's hoax as absolute fact apologized or faced accountability.

    And here we are again, with some family members of the Atlanta victims pleading with the media not to make this about race. Those pleas are being ignored.
    I said the media presented the shooter's claims about his motives. I never said they had to take them at face value.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post

    The general public? I've waited longer than 4 hours for my new passport... not saying it's the same, but waiting is part of life in modern society. So your logic is really not helping you.
    He wasn't "waiting". "Waiting" means he had the option of leaving.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Oh, hey, "proportionality". The excuse always brought up to explain why cops face no consequences for their ethical failures and outright criminal acts.

    If I held a kid in detention without justifiable reason, as a teacher, you bet your ass I'd get fired. Or if there's any "he said, they said" complaints of ethical transgressions, even if they're probably false, unless I can unequivocally disprove them completely. And so on. Real tired of cop supporters claiming that basic ethical standards and enforcement are somehow an unfair imposition on police.
    I see, you're feisty tonight. Sure, why not. Let's go.

    As a teacher, your main job, your SOLE job is the care and education of children. If you hold them in detention without a justifiable reason, that means there is no lesson for them to learn and detaining them is not "taking care" of the children. You have failed your job.

    The POLICE's job however, is public safety. It is not their job to "take care" of potential suspects. Their job is to DETAIN potential subjects until they have determined that those potential suspects pose no danger to society. That is their job. Not what you seem to think, you know... entertaining witnesses. Remember, they were trying to find a gunman on the lose. They may have focused on witnesses that knew something about his whereabouts or his description... not the guy who stayed in a closed room and doesn't know any of these things. So far, they haven't exactly failed at their job.

    Your analogy is shit.

    Proportionality is not an excuse. Proportionality is never an excuse for an action. It's an explanation for the degree of an action. You aren't questioning that he was detained, you are questioning why he was detained for such a long time. And I'm telling you, in comparison to the people that are DEAD and the people that are in danger of being killed, that was not very high on their priority list. I can tell you that without having been there. THAT is what I mean by proportionality. I would be very surprised if the judges didn't follow this logic.

    In a perfect world, they would look at someone, scan him and see he's innocent within a minute. In our shitty version of the world, there's no such thing.

    And now you're insulting me with a box. Have you not learned that I'll never fit into any of y'alls boxes? That's because I don't typically side one way or the other when I discuss here. I talk about a very specific incident. I am not a "cop supporter", nor am I a "cop hater" the next time around they kill a black man for no reason other than "he crossed the street". I can absolutely look at either case and condemn the cops in one case and not in the other.

    In this case, I have said, multiple times, that I need more than the evidence in the articles to immediately subscribe to racism. And I have agreed a LONG, LONG time ago that an investigation is warranted. Sure, why not. I'm always for a trial. But what you're doing? That's coming to conclusions based on half-knowledge and assumptions.

    And now let me have it, go to your favourite corner, dig out your favourite copy&paste arguments and give it to me, put it down big boy. Let me have all the buzzphrases and regurgitated media arguments you can come up with. Or, you know, think about what I said. I know, why am I even asking on this board, but there you go, I am optimistic with some people...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    He wasn't "waiting". "Waiting" means he had the option of leaving.
    You know where you can put your semantics?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Holding Cops accountable for their transgressions is the alternative.
    Which is why you have laws doing that. So what the fuck are you even here for?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flathet View Post
    Why are you engaging with slant?

    He's said racist things about asians and then claiming he's not prejudiced.
    Wow, I have a fangirl. How many accounts do you have by now? Nice baiting btw, you must REALLY hate me to bookmark all those, those are YEARS ago. I don't know if I should be flattered or concerned that I have a stalker... I wonder how it feels for you to have gone through all that effort and me thinking it's amusing. Don't be disappointed, you did surprise me a bit... but I can respect that level of determination. Keep it up!

    (naturally, they are completely out of context... not that anyone cares :P)
    Last edited by Slant; 2021-03-25 at 12:05 AM.
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  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You know where you can put your semantics?
    You think the difference between being wrongfully detained by the police and waiting is "semantics"?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post

    Which is why you have laws doing that. So what the fuck are you even here for?
    The laws aren't doing that. That's what the fuck I'm here for.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Flathet View Post
    Context doesn't make it not racism nor does it justify the racism you have expressed
    Yes, because I am a racist this week. Last week I was a leftist immigrant loving commie, next week I'll probably be an arch-conservative satanist. I go wherever the wind takes me. At least according to the opinion of MMO-C. Anything else you'd like to say? Go on, say it with gusto: "Slant is a racist bastard! He hates Asians! And Swedes! And Americans! And Canad..." aahhh, no, nobody hates Canadians. You know that. Well, I've got grown up people to talk to, see you baby. Make sure to update your records, I'm fairly certain I said naughty things last week, cos I got the freakiest of 3 day bans for it. Or something anyway...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    You think the difference between being wrongfully detained by the police and waiting is "semantics"?

    The laws aren't doing that. That's what the fuck I'm here for.
    Dude, nobody cares about the difference between waiting and being detained... that's you grasping for straws because you want to keep this argument going. I'm not in the mood for these games. If you don't have a decent argument, I'll stop responding to you. So far, and this is typical of this forum, NOBODY is responding to the points I'm making. I have to assume that y'all don't have the patience to read through anything longer than a tweet.

    I mean there are exceptions, but Endus and I actually do not disagree often enough to have us go at an argument properly. So why don't you go pester someone else while he and I enjoy an actual argument. Thank you!

    The laws are actually doing that. And you being here accomplishes jack shit. Why don't you go and help enforce those laws? Ah right, because you don't actually give a shit. Your fake outrage is cute.
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  18. #378
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It is not their job to "take care" of potential suspects
    Gee, I wonder why this belief combined with a culture of viewing everyone as a potential suspect might lead to problems.

    If you are in custody, you are in care, and the people keeping you in that state have a duty of care towards you that was not demonstrated in this situation.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-03-25 at 12:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Gee, I wonder why this belief combined with a culture of viewing everyone as a potential suspect might lead to problems.

    If you are in custody, you are in care, and the people keeping you in that state have a duty of care towards you that was not demonstrated in this situation.
    I mean, if you are the sole survivor of a mass shooting, then yeah.. you're a potential suspect. I'm not even going into the semantics with you, sick and tired of low effort shitposting.
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  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Dude, nobody cares about the difference between waiting and being detained... that's you grasping for straws because you want to keep this argument going. I'm not in the mood for these games. If you don't have a decent argument, I'll stop responding to you. So far, and this is typical of this forum, NOBODY is responding to the points I'm making. I have to assume that y'all don't have the patience to read through anything longer than a tweet.
    Actually people do care about the difference between waiting and being detained by the police. They are very different things. One involves choice while the other does not. People with guns aren't going to stop you if you try to leave the line to get your passport.

    The laws are actually doing that. And you being here accomplishes jack shit. Why don't you go and help enforce those laws? Ah right, because you don't actually give a shit. Your fake outrage is cute.
    Works great when the people that are supposed to make sure the police are following the law are other police...
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

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