Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

[ReVnX]

"We could not fill the chasm between the Horde and Alliance if we labored 1000 years"

[VladlTutushkin]

And what about MoP?



Preach.



Well... apparently they can. Otherwise, there would be no franchise.

They could, but after MoP they just sucked the concept dry and also allowed their biases to ruin it so... Yeah now its untenable.

[Ardenaso]

Blizz cant write a faction conflict so... They better not try that shit again.

I like the faction conflict in Cata and MoP; so yeah if Talanji/Rokhan goes out for vengeance and retribution, and Turalyon/Alleria/Danath goes out for blood, I think it would be better than Sylvanas' "let's kill people just because" faction conflict

[VladlTutushkin]

I like the faction conflict in Cata and MoP; so yeah if Talanji/Rokhan goes out for vengeance and retribution, and Turalyon/Alleria/Danath goes out for blood, I think it would be better than Sylvanas' "let's kill people just because" faction conflict

And then what? That cant be equalized or ended without fucking over one of the factions. BfA was promised to be a faction pride expansion and Alliance now all but gone in terms of faction pride, cucked to oblivion and beyond. I dont want another expansion of eating dirt and then being told to forgive and forget.

[username993720]

They could, but after MoP they just sucked the concept dry and also allowed their biases to ruin it so... Yeah now its untenable.

Agree.
Sylvanas is nowhere as good as Garrosh.
And this uniting to take down a corrupted Warchief is kinda getting repetitive.

And then what? That cant be equalized or ended without fucking over one of the factions. BfA was promised to be a faction pride expansion and Alliance now all but gone in terms of faction pride, cucked to oblivion and beyond. I dont want another expansion of eating dirt and then being told to forgive and forget.

Perhaps, faction conflict should never take the center stage but, be a side theme of an expansion - just like the Old Gods.

[Accendor]

The Alliance and the Horde are currently in an uneasy state of armistice -- but there are still very serious unresolved issues.

The status of Ashenvale and Lordaeron remain unclear. Did the Horde withdraw entirely from Ashenvale? And if so, why are the kaldorei not living there? Is Lordaeron still occupied militarily by Alliance forces? Will either region become the future home of the kaldorei? And the Forsaken -- will Calia Menethil play a major role in Lordaeron's future? Will the Forsaken eventually accept her as their new leader? Will Turalyon accept her as Queen of Lordaeron? And will this allegiance to his kingdom eventually cause conflict with his loyalties to Anduin and Stormwind?

And Sylvanas while manipulating Saurfang for her own ends -- she is not entirely wrong in her arguments, the very fact the Horde marched against the night elves without hesitation, and the vast majority of continued to fight even long after the Burning of Teldrassil, indicates even back then, most Horde characters did not particularly care much about what happened to the kaldorei, and saw them as their mortal enemies, and neither did the Alliance see the Forsaken as worthy of sympathy:


And of course, the night elves, and presumably most night elf players, will very probably never be able to forget or forgive this:


Queen Talanji and her lingering grievances against Jaina Proudmoore and the other Kul Tirans -- she has not forgotten her father's death. And the Zandalari still want Alliance blood for what happened to their king.



Nor is Tyrande willing to forgive the Horde:



I always felt the Fourth War was ended very abruptly. It seemed unrealistic that most Alliance and Horde leaders just decided to stop fighting -- even without Sylvanas, they had tons of bitter grudges and grievances against each other, even before the Battle for Azeroth began. I understand Jaina and Thrall respect each other -- and are friends again, but why would that affect most Alliance and Horde members? The war missions had the Alliance and Horde fighting across the span of two continents repeatedly, did they just suddenly stop after Sylvanas left them? Perhaps most Alliance and Horde leaders are pro-armistice -- but it seems all but impossible that most of their populaces are pro-armistice as well. The entire premise, at least from the short stories and the Warbringers shorts, was that this conflict was unforgivable, basically, and would lead to permanent changes, and some even argued it would end the faction system altogether -- but now, all of that seems to have been swept away, the expansion almost ending in a whimper instead of a bang. Understandably, of course, because of Shadowlands -- but I still believe the armistice is too honestly unrealistic, especially compared in a real world context.

I mean, realistically, if Anduin's ranks were nearly depleted even before he released Saurfang from the Stockades, most families probably lost their family members during the conflict; I'm sure for example, most soldiers who perished had wives and children back home, families who were waiting for them to return to Stormwind and Orgrimmar, but they never did. It is not just the kaldorei who were orphaned en masse; almost EVERY race is now filled with orphans. They hate and loathe each other more than ever before, at the end of the day, Teldrassil and Lordaeron are still destroyed, and the kaldorei and the Forsaken are without a permanent settlement. I don't believe that Tyrande should pursue her vengeance as it leads to insanity, or the Zandalari for that matter -- but neither do the issues and problems between the factions seem anywhere near adequately resolved.

Was Sylvanas right in her arguments? Is real, lasting peace truly impossible, and conflict inevitable, until one faction is broken or destroyed? Do you think the Alliance and Horde can eventually forgive each for the past? Or will they remain forever enemies? Would you be willing, here and now, to forgive the opposite faction?

Sylvanas was wrong. Peace was possible before Teldrassil. Everything before that could be interpreted as consequences of the orcs manipulation through the demon blood and the resulting consequences. At some point, before Garrosh became warchief, the factions got much closer already in general. The bombing of Theramore was a warcrime, even in the world of warcraft, and even most of the Horde agreed with that and rebelled. It was not the only reason, but it was part of it (another reason being Garroshs open racism for other races in the Horde).
For the Horde this was a very defining moment, because the statement of the siege of ogrimmar was "we are better than this" and at that point in time it seemed true.
Then Teldrassil happened and the vast majority of the Horde supported or and continued with warcrime after watching through all of BfA and only a tiny fraction said "wait, we are better than this"

It's over now, peace is impossible and so is abandoning factions.

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And then what? That cant be equalized or ended without fucking over one of the factions. BfA was promised to be a faction pride expansion and Alliance now all but gone in terms of faction pride, cucked to oblivion and beyond. I dont want another expansion of eating dirt and then being told to forgive and forget.

I 100% with you, but the fun thing is, that the Horde also feels cucked because they lost another warchief and the "alliance puppets" Baine, Thrall and Calia are in power now. Oh right, also basically the whole faction (including the PC) is evil now.

I still argue the alliance storyline is much, much worse, but in the end nobody is happy and nobody is proud anymore.

[The Butt Witch]

Never as long as they are segregated behind factions.

Blizzard should remove hard factions and just allow any race to be in any faction, and make factions based on ideologies rather than racials as well.

[Accendor]

Of course they can forgive each other, history is full of minor and major conflicts that were later forgiven, some with atrocities worse than what we have in WoW.

Because of a generation change. E.g. its much easier for jewish people born after let's say 1970 to live and interact with German people who were born around the same time. It is another generation that has no personal conflict with each other and that grew up in culturally different times.

This is different in WoW tho because the life span of dwarves is much higher than the one of e.g. humans and orcs and still nothing compared to elves and draenei.
When 10 generations of Orcs have come and gone, the same nightelves that survived Teldrassil are still alive and most likely in good shape. When a hundred generations of Orcs have come and gone, the draenei who saw the massacres of Ashenvale and Brennendam are still alive and well.

[username993720]

Never as long as they are segregated behind factions.

Blizzard should remove hard factions and just allow any race to be in any faction, and make factions based on ideologies rather than racials as well.

Sylvanas was wrong. Peace was possible before Teldrassil. Everything before that could be interpreted as consequences of the orcs manipulation through the demon blood and the resulting consequences. At some point, before Garrosh became warchief, the factions got much closer already in general. The bombing of Theramore was a warcrime, even in the world of warcraft, and even most of the Horde agreed with that and rebelled. It was not the only reason, but it was part of it (another reason being Garroshs open racism for other races in the Horde).
For the Horde this was a very defining moment, because the statement of the siege of ogrimmar was "we are better than this" and at that point in time it seemed true.
Then Teldrassil happened and the vast majority of the Horde supported or and continued with warcrime after watching through all of BfA and only a tiny fraction said "wait, we are better than this"

It's over now, peace is impossible and so is abandoning factions.

If there's one thing that the Mag'har Orcs taught us is that they do not require demonic corruption to be bloodthirsty conquerers. That is now nothing but an excuse. It just amplified their traits, not changed them from peaceful people to warmongerers.

If anything, I would expand the factions, not abandon them. Take the covenants for example. They gave us a roleplaying aspect that was long missing from WoW. They should do the same with factions. Alliance and Horde should remain but, there should also be a Sentinel faction and a Scourge faction (like in WC3), for the nature lovers and for the evil ones.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I dare you to walk up to the refugees of the human kingdoms that were destroyed by the Orcs, the refugees of Lordaeron and Gilneas that were ravaged by the Forsaken, Gilnean refugees, and Theramore refugees, and the Teldrassil refugees... and tell them that they should "forgive and forget".

I'm a Horde fan, but let's not mince words. The Horde is the unrepentantly evil faction. There is no moral equivalency between the Horde and the Alliance.

No one plays Horde to be a hero or a kind person who brings hope and peace. You play Alliance for that. You play Horde to be a bloodthirsty warmonger who kills and exults in bloodshed for his own glory.

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Also, reminder that the Horde are crazy fascists. Their core ideology is that we are warriors who kill.

Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.

I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

From this moment until the end of days I live and die - For the Horde!

It straight up says there in the Horde pledge of allegiance that you are supposed to shut up and carry out your orders to commit murder. Like a good warrior should. You cannot oppose a warchief's command to commit mass murder without being a traitor to the Horde. Being a good guy and being a faithful member of the Horde are two mutually exclusive things. Pick one.

If the Alliance actually acted like a victorious superpower whenever it triumphed over the Horde in war (friendly reminder: you don't play Horde to win wars. The Horde has never won in a war against the Alliance), we'd all be shot or hanged or beheaded after having Nuremberg trials. But due to OU reasons - Blizzard wanting to milk Horde vs Alliance iconography for all its worth - instead we get one person who is scapegoated and everyone else is let off the hook. Our culture does not change, and and come next expansion we're back to genociding and mass murdering and conquering again.

Tauren and Tushui Pandaren are the only times Blizzard has experimented with some sort of spiritual redemption or cultural reform of the Horde, but Blizzard never takes those storylines anywhere and always defaults back to "Horde are macho conquerers".

[VladlTutushkin]

Sylvanas was wrong. Peace was possible before Teldrassil. Everything before that could be interpreted as consequences of the orcs manipulation through the demon blood and the resulting consequences. At some point, before Garrosh became warchief, the factions got much closer already in general. The bombing of Theramore was a warcrime, even in the world of warcraft, and even most of the Horde agreed with that and rebelled. It was not the only reason, but it was part of it (another reason being Garroshs open racism for other races in the Horde).
For the Horde this was a very defining moment, because the statement of the siege of ogrimmar was "we are better than this" and at that point in time it seemed true.
Then Teldrassil happened and the vast majority of the Horde supported or and continued with warcrime after watching through all of BfA and only a tiny fraction said "wait, we are better than this"

It's over now, peace is impossible and so is abandoning factions.

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I 100% with you, but the fun thing is, that the Horde also feels cucked because they lost another warchief and the "alliance puppets" Baine, Thrall and Calia are in power now. Oh right, also basically the whole faction (including the PC) is evil now.

I still argue the alliance storyline is much, much worse, but in the end nobody is happy and nobody is proud anymore.

Alliance storyline is worse because horde “lost” in a sense that they stopped beating us into the pavement. While obviously it sucks when bully has to stop and wait for another week or a month but it sucks twice as much for the bullied who cant even fight back.

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I dare you to walk up to the refugees of the human kingdoms that were destroyed by the Orcs, the refugees of Lordaeron and Gilneas that were ravaged by the Forsaken, Gilnean refugees, and Theramore refugees, and the Teldrassil refugees... and tell them that they should "forgive and forget".

I'm a Horde fan, but let's not mince words. The Horde is the unrepentantly evil faction. There is no moral equivalency between the Horde and the Alliance.

No one plays Horde to be a hero or a kind person who brings hope and peace. You play Alliance for that. You play Horde to be a bloodthirsty warmonger who kills and exults in bloodshed for his own glory.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, reminder that the Horde are crazy fascists. Their core ideology is that we are warriors who kill.



It straight up says there in the Horde pledge of allegiance that you are supposed to shut up and carry out your orders to commit murder. Like a good warrior should. You cannot oppose a warchief's command to commit mass murder without being a traitor to the Horde. Being a good guy and being a faithful member of the Horde are two mutually exclusive things. Pick one.

If the Alliance actually acted like a victorious superpower whenever it triumphed over the Horde in war (friendly reminder: you don't play Horde to win wars. The Horde has never won in a war against the Alliance), we'd all be shot or hanged or beheaded after having Nuremberg trials. But due to OU reasons - Blizzard wanting to milk Horde vs Alliance iconography for all its worth - instead we get one person who is scapegoated and everyone else is let off the hook. Our culture does not change, and and come next expansion we're back to genociding and mass murdering and conquering again.

Tauren and Tushui Pandaren are the only times Blizzard has experimented with some sort of spiritual redemption or cultural reform of the Horde, but Blizzard never takes those storylines anywhere and always defaults back to "Horde are macho conquerers".

So... you just proven why its impossible to write a palatable faction war expansion. Because despite what some horde fans believe Alliance fans are not fond of being the punching bag or the “forgive and forget” side in every conflict. Basically the whole “horde is metul conqerorz and murdererz” cant work in WoW since it leads to Alliance getting mutilated each time and then left to hang. You just summed up the reason why they removed a Watchief title too. That oath is no longer applicable to anything in the horde since it leads to an unsolvable plot problem - how to make a fucken multiplayer game without repeatedly cucking one side of it.

[username993720]

No one plays Horde to be a hero or a kind person who brings hope and peace. You play Alliance for that. You play Horde to be a bloodthirsty warmonger who kills and exults in bloodshed for his own glory.

Steve Carell meme: "Thank you!"

I don't know why people want a goodie-two-shoes Horde.

You just summed up the reason why they removed a Watchief title too. That oath is no longer applicable to anything in the horde since it leads to an unsolvable plot problem - how to make a fucken multiplayer game without repeatedly cucking one side of it.

Warchief is an integral part of the Horde and of Orcish culture.
Discarding it is a blow to the Horde's identity and the Orcish race (let alone, appointing someone who is not an Orc. How many non-Human kings of the Alliance have we had?).

[Super Dickmann]

Cut for space...

...Tauren and Tushui Pandaren are the only times Blizzard has experimented with some sort of spiritual redemption or cultural reform of the Horde, but Blizzard never takes those storylines anywhere and always defaults back to "Horde are macho conquerers".

This post, but unironically and actually applied instead of pussied out from each time. Also it really tells you how out of focus Horde Pandaren are when even people who like them confuse the Huojin for the Tushui. Possibly because the story of both pandaren faction groups ended in Siege of Orgrimmar and the two pandas should've hooked up and gone back to the turtle. The Huojin should have bailed over being ordered to kill their fellow bears on behalf of a dude they'd met five minutes ago and then swore an oath of total obedience for. Due to gameplay reasons this is of course impossible so the developers instead put the pandas in several expansion long time out corner. Even when they have a hook to work with like the Zandalari joining the Horde it never comes up because Blizzard simply have no clue what to do with them.

[Ardenaso]

And then what? That cant be equalized or ended without fucking over one of the factions. BfA was promised to be a faction pride expansion and Alliance now all but gone in terms of faction pride, cucked to oblivion and beyond. I dont want another expansion of eating dirt and then being told to forgive and forget.

I believe the main problem there was trying to compress the faction war with Aszhara and then Nyalotha

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I dare you to walk up to the refugees of the human kingdoms that were destroyed by the Orcs, the refugees of Lordaeron and Gilneas that were ravaged by the Forsaken, Gilnean refugees, and Theramore refugees, and the Teldrassil refugees... and tell them that they should "forgive and forget".

I'm a Horde fan, but let's not mince words. The Horde is the unrepentantly evil faction. There is no moral equivalency between the Horde and the Alliance.

No one plays Horde to be a hero or a kind person who brings hope and peace. You play Alliance for that. You play Horde to be a bloodthirsty warmonger who kills and exults in bloodshed for his own glory.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, reminder that the Horde are crazy fascists. Their core ideology is that we are warriors who kill.



It straight up says there in the Horde pledge of allegiance that you are supposed to shut up and carry out your orders to commit murder. Like a good warrior should. You cannot oppose a warchief's command to commit mass murder without being a traitor to the Horde. Being a good guy and being a faithful member of the Horde are two mutually exclusive things. Pick one.

If the Alliance actually acted like a victorious superpower whenever it triumphed over the Horde in war (friendly reminder: you don't play Horde to win wars. The Horde has never won in a war against the Alliance), we'd all be shot or hanged or beheaded after having Nuremberg trials. But due to OU reasons - Blizzard wanting to milk Horde vs Alliance iconography for all its worth - instead we get one person who is scapegoated and everyone else is let off the hook. Our culture does not change, and and come next expansion we're back to genociding and mass murdering and conquering again.

Tauren and Tushui Pandaren are the only times Blizzard has experimented with some sort of spiritual redemption or cultural reform of the Horde, but Blizzard never takes those storylines anywhere and always defaults back to "Horde are macho conquerers".

which is ironic, because the Horde was never meant to be the evil faction. Just because they would rather die trying than fail doesn't mean they will go around and slaughter everything they see. In Warcraft 3 the Horde was very brutal, yes, but once they finally dealt with Daelin Proudmoore (who wouldn't have died if he tried to settle for reparations peacefully) they allowed every survivor, even Kul Tirans, to stand down and they allowed them all to leave in peace. And yes, they didn't kill civilians.

[Super Dickmann]

I believe the main problem there was trying to compress the faction war with Aszhara and then Nyalotha

I'd say Teldrassil is a much more fundamental problem with this carfire, as were its consequences, both in presenting the Horde at large and in the fact that the game pussies out of actually answering the question on what the Horde stands for by having neither Sylvanas nor Saurfang be genuine advocates for their positions and interpretations but instead be a sockpuppet of Satan and Anduin respectively. But squeezing the faction and Old God expansions together while ditching the resource war aspect entirely is another issue. BFA is great that way because the ways it fucks up are legion and all quite interesting in their own right.

which is ironic, because the Horde was never meant to be the evil faction. Just because they would rather die trying than fail doesn't mean they will go around and slaughter everything they see. In Warcraft 3 the Horde was very brutal, yes, but once they finally dealt with Daelin Proudmoore (who wouldn't have died if he tried to settle for reparations peacefully) they allowed every survivor, even Kul Tirans, to stand down and they allowed them all to leave in peace. And yes, they didn't kill civilians.

The Horde was very explicitly meant to be an evil faction in the two first RTS games. It was explicitly the opposite in WC3 when it was instead a noblesavage trope that was interesting for its time and well executed in the vacuum of its story, but a storytelling desert in a longform narrative because all orcish problems were resolved by the end of the game and they had zero to do in the ongoing Legion/Scourge myth arc. WoW borrows from both versions plus some of the Scourge appeal of WC3 through the Forsaken. The natural lifecycle is that it starts with the noblesavage Horde, tells no stories with it as there are none to tell, switches to the WC2 Horde, gets cold feet, commits to making it a total caricature, axes the scapegoat leader character and then reverts to the Thrall default, whereupon the Horde goes dormant again. If you count the WC3 to TFT transition we're now in the third iteration of this lifecycle.

[Ardenaso]

Steve Carell meme: "Thank you!"

I don't know why people want a goodie-two-shoes Horde.



Warchief is an integral part of the Horde and of Orcish culture.
Discarding it is a blow to the Horde's identity and the Orcish race (let alone, appointing someone who is not an Orc. How many non-Human kings of the Alliance have we had?).

not goody-two-shoes, but the Warcraft 3 Horde, which the WoW Horde was originally based on.

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friendly reminder there can be a middle point between Horde being Anduin's bootlicking buddies and Horde between genocidal warmongers

[VladlTutushkin]

Steve Carell meme: "Thank you!"

I don't know why people want a goodie-two-shoes Horde.



Warchief is an integral part of the Horde and of Orcish culture.
Discarding it is a blow to the Horde's identity and the Orcish race (let alone, appointing someone who is not an Orc. How many non-Human kings of the Alliance have we had?).

Well, fuckload of Alliance identities were discarded. Dwarves were outright forced to unify the clans by Varian. Night elves were defanged, declawed and reduced to a status of human sidekicks and damsels in distress. Etc.

Also “not an orc” shouldnt be an issue since Warchief was a leader of all Horde, not just orcs. Same as High King can be of any race, Blizz just chose to put human in that place.

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I'd say Teldrassil is a much more fundamental problem with this carfire, as were its consequences, both in presenting the Horde at large and in the fact that the game pussies out of actually answering the question on what the Horde stands for by having neither Sylvanas nor Saurfang be genuine advocates for their positions and interpretations but instead be a sockpuppet of Satan and Anduin respectively. But squeezing the faction and Old God expansions together while ditching the resource war aspect entirely is another issue. BFA is great that way because the ways it fucks up are legion and all quite interesting in their own right.



The Horde was very explicitly meant to be an evil faction in the two first RTS games. It was explicitly the opposite in WC3 when it was instead a noblesavage trope that was interesting for its time and well executed in the vacuum of its story, but a storytelling desert in a longform narrative because all orcish problems were resolved by the end of the game and they had zero to do in the ongoing Legion/Scourge myth arc. WoW borrows from both versions plus some of the Scourge appeal of WC3 through the Forsaken. The natural lifecycle is that it starts with the noblesavage Horde, tells no stories with it as there are none to tell, switches to the WC2 Horde, gets cold feet, commits to making it a total caricature, axes the scapegoat leader character and then reverts to the Thrall default, whereupon the Horde goes dormant again. If you count the WC3 to TFT transition we're now in the third iteration of this lifecycle.

Horde cant be “like in Warcraft 1-2” because of a reason you already mentioned - they dont want (and cannot) commit. Because such horde can only end up entirely destroyed or destroying Alliance and then cannibalising itself in a civil war when orcs start quarrelling with blood elfs and so on.

The only mistake they did was War of Thorns because it fucks up the plot and makes it impossible to resolve without utterly humiliating one faction. Whole idea of a prepatch was retarded, suicidal in terms of plot and also led to more and more complications as it went on.

[Super Dickmann]

Horde cant be “like in Warcraft 1-2” because of a reason you already mentioned - they dont want (and cannot) commit. Because such horde can only end up entirely destroyed or destroying Alliance and then cannibalising itself in a civil war when orcs start quarrelling with blood elfs and so on.

The only mistake they did was War of Thorns because it fucks up the plot and makes it impossible to resolve without utterly humiliating one faction. Whole idea of a prepatch was retarded, suicidal in terms of plot and also led to more and more complications as it went on.

The WC1 Horde was complete shit, so that's not really a loss, but it's perfectly possible to make factions battle each other without making annihilation the stakes. The game has done this before and other MMOs have as well. It's much better as well because constantly raising the stakes condemns you to a cop out. This isn't just with the factions either, a big problem of the game is that by raising the stakes to be the total annihilation of either us (impossible as the game or end) or the biggest of bads (possible but harmful as it diminishes their threat), Warcraft has killed absolutely every established baddie and must now invent new ones through tortured retcons, who always escalate from what came before, further exacerbating the problem. WoD and Pandaria were the sole exceptions.

Agreed with the last part, except both factions were thoroughly castrated in this narrative in its pursuit of total homogeneity, only to pussy out of even that at the last moment by not making the Unifaction be in gameplay as well. Huge story damage was dealt with no tangible narrative or gameplay gain. If this whole thing had been a vehicle to nix factions it'd still have been a huge mistake but it would at least have some kind of reasoning attached to it, instead it's writers thinking they're smarter and more insightful than they actually are telling a story that the medium and lore neither can nor should sustain.

[Accendor]

Steve Carell meme: "Thank you!"

I don't know why people want a goodie-two-shoes Horde.



Warchief is an integral part of the Horde and of Orcish culture.
Discarding it is a blow to the Horde's identity and the Orcish race (let alone, appointing someone who is not an Orc. How many non-Human kings of the Alliance have we had?).

There is a difference between the horde being a savage band of outcasts who celebrate strength, combat and honor and show no mercy on the battlefield (e.g. warcraft 3 horde) or simply being evil for being evil (current horde).
I actually think the majority of horde players want to be in the cool and strong faction, but I don't think their thought process included "I would like to play the faction that impaled civilians alive and makes their children watch as they die"
I am not saying that exist no players that like this and want to RP it, that's fair enough, I just do not believe that is more than a tiny fraction.

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The WC1 Horde was complete shit, so that's not really a loss, but it's perfectly possible to make factions battle each other without making annihilation the stakes. The game has done this before and other MMOs have as well. It's much better as well because constantly raising the stakes condemns you to a cop out. This isn't just with the factions either, a big problem of the game is that by raising the stakes to be the total annihilation of either us (impossible as the game or end) or the biggest of bads (possible but harmful as it diminishes their threat), Warcraft has killed absolutely every established baddie and must now invent new ones through tortured retcons, who always escalate from what came before, further exacerbating the problem. WoD and Pandaria were the sole exceptions.

Agreed with the last part, except both factions were thoroughly castrated in this narrative in its pursuit of total homogeneity, only to pussy out of even that at the last moment by not making the Unifaction be in gameplay as well. Huge story damage was dealt with no tangible narrative or gameplay gain. If this whole thing had been a vehicle to nix factions it'd still have been a huge mistake but it would at least have some kind of reasoning attached to it, instead it's writers thinking they're smarter and more insightful than they actually are telling a story that the medium and lore neither can nor should sustain.

The thing is, it wouldnt even have made sense to use this as a story device to justify faction merge or something like that, because it created barriers that can not be breached anymore.
Removing faction barriers would have been much easier, just give us one cinematic after legion: There is a new threat, but this time, we fight it together!"

You could even do recreate all of BfAs content with some adjustments to the lore and find different reasons to go to some places, but I can easily see it working out. After legion was the perfect time for that.
Now it will need some ten thousands of years to fix this shit.

[erifwodahs]

I dare you to walk up to the refugees of the human kingdoms that were destroyed by the Orcs, the refugees of Lordaeron and Gilneas that were ravaged by the Forsaken, Gilnean refugees, and Theramore refugees, and the Teldrassil refugees... and tell them that they should "forgive and forget".

I'm a Horde fan, but let's not mince words. The Horde is the unrepentantly evil faction. There is no moral equivalency between the Horde and the Alliance.

No one plays Horde to be a hero or a kind person who brings hope and peace. You play Alliance for that. You play Horde to be a bloodthirsty warmonger who kills and exults in bloodshed for his own glory.

What are you smoking? I suggest you to stop.
We have paladins in the Horde who are using same spellbooks as Alliance paladins, aka same rulebook.

If you can't see equivalency between A&H, where are you looking? Stormwind Knights vs Fel Orcs in Blood Furnace?
Horde is not Evil. Horde is Horde.
It was alliance who fucked up their relationship with Forsaken and High Elves. It was alliance who forced trolls to join the Horde. It was alliance who forced Goblins into the Horde. If they did not fuck up so much they would have much better allies everywhere and the Orcish Horde would have been forced into a corner long ago.