Poll: Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Blizz cant write a faction conflict so... They better not try that shit again.
    They can handle conflict just fine, it's outright war that's out of the question as in order for it to be good it would require that one side wins while the other loses. What Blizzard has gone with, twice now, is that things just kind of unrealistically shrink back to status quo, which is just all-around unsatisfying bullshit.

    Wrath did it well, providing Horde and Alliance their own bases, some hostilities, some cooperation. War was avoided through it all, skirmishes over Wintergrasp and Grizzly Hills resources being local disputes that got a bit messy. Scourge was still the main enemy and the reason Horde and Alliance were invading Northrend at all. There were even events that addressed the hostility and how it was handled, e.g. the Broken Front, where a rogue Horde commander sent his troops to stab an Alliance company in the back while they were busy fighting the Scourge; Garrosh of all people summoned this commander and gave him an earful about it.

    They can keep things like this, hostile co-existence without it boiling over into an unwinnable war.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    The thing is, it wouldnt even have made sense to use this as a story device to justify faction merge or something like that, because it created barriers that can not be breached anymore.
    Removing faction barriers would have been much easier, just give us one cinematic after legion: There is a new threat, but this time, we fight it together!"

    You could even do recreate all of BfAs content with some adjustments to the lore and find different reasons to go to some places, but I can easily see it working out. After legion was the perfect time for that.
    Now it will need some ten thousands of years to fix this shit.
    Legion was an iffy point. The way the Order Halls were set up was based on the factions still being around and uncooperative, hence needing these entities. BFA is really springing off of that board albeit in an entirely different way to Legion. I don't think Blizzard ever intended for the post-Legion expansion to merge factions and they never set it up. BFA on the other hand is, extremely hamhandedly, heading towards the point of unification by either neutering (worgen, most Forsaken) or cutting out (Gallywix, Sylvanas, rest of the Forsaken) virtually any hostile character and foisting all conflict down as being the fault of a single strawman in Sylvanas. Things like Thrall and Jaina talking about what's different this time and how the Night Elves are shown to be extremely unreasonable to be blaming anyone but Sylvanas for their problems is heading to that moment where Saurfang goes out talking about Azeroth, much like how the rebels and the Alliance team up over how they're neither Horde nor Alliance, but Azerothians. Saurfang gets eulogized by the Alliance king and Calia's selling point is how close she is to the Alliance and how she can make the Forsaken more like humans, taking out the last intractable race after Mists eliminated the orcs. But at the cardinal moment, they back off and Shadows Rising and the Turalyon dialogue apply some sprinkling of realism and have the writers play with the idea of going back to that well. Ion backtracks and hesitates on it and while the main cast are still interchangable, they're still separate as Alliance or Horde.

    Now if you want to say that's illogical because of how the war started, how the Horde backed Sylvanas throughout or how Anduin's pro-white peace position being popular is beyond retarded, those are all true, but the story was still heading in that direction only to give up at the last moment.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-03-25 at 02:42 PM.
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  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    which is ironic, because the Horde was never meant to be the evil faction. Just because they would rather die trying than fail doesn't mean they will go around and slaughter everything they see. In Warcraft 3 the Horde was very brutal, yes, but once they finally dealt with Daelin Proudmoore (who wouldn't have died if he tried to settle for reparations peacefully) they allowed every survivor, even Kul Tirans, to stand down and they allowed them all to leave in peace. And yes, they didn't kill civilians.
    Never? are you sure about that? What about the second war Horde? or the first war Horde?
    Let me remind you of the different incarnations of the Horde:
    Old Horde - invaded azeroth consumed by demonic corruption.
    Horde of Draenor - tried to open portals to conquer other planets.
    Dark Horde - a faction of renegade Horde races that adhere to the ideals of the Old Horde.
    Fel Horde - Fel corrupted orcs under the service of Magtheridon.
    True Horde - Garrosh's Horde.
    Iron Horde - tried to conquer Azeroth once again.

    And, before you claim that these are different sects that broke apart from the playable Horde, let me remind you that their members were once, or are, members of the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    not goody-two-shoes, but the Warcraft 3 Horde, which the WoW Horde was originally based on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    friendly reminder there can be a middle point between Horde being Anduin's bootlicking buddies and Horde between genocidal warmongers
    The Warcraft 3 Horde did not include Forsaken, Blood elves, Goblins, Mag'har or Zandalari.

    Plus, their leader, Thrall, was a Frostwolf Orc (the least aggressive clan).

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Well, fuckload of Alliance identities were discarded. Dwarves were outright forced to unify the clans by Varian. Night elves were defanged, declawed and reduced to a status of human sidekicks and damsels in distress. Etc.

    Also “not an orc” shouldnt be an issue since Warchief was a leader of all Horde, not just orcs. Same as High King can be of any race, Blizz just chose to put human in that place.
    It got you playable Dark Iron and Wildhammer, didn't it?

    If you're that upset about the Night elves, why do you want the same for the Horde?

    Warchief, as a title, was intrinsically associated with the Orcish Horde. The war part of it is related to the war aspect of Orcs, and chief to their tribal aspect. Other races have their own titles:
    Tauren and Trolls use Chieftain.
    Blood elves use Lord.
    Forsaken had a Queen.
    Goblins use Trade Prince.

    King, same as with Warchief, was related to Humans since the game's inception. Other races use different titles:
    Dwarves use Thane.
    Gnomes use High Tinker.
    Draenei use Council of Exarchs.

    The point is, borrowing titles from other races blur the lines between them. Sylvanas ain't no Orcish Warchief. She's delicate. not a brute.
    Vol'jin was a tribal superstitious. Not a Warlord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    There is a difference between the horde being a savage band of outcasts who celebrate strength, combat and honor and show no mercy on the battlefield (e.g. warcraft 3 horde) or simply being evil for being evil (current horde).
    I actually think the majority of horde players want to be in the cool and strong faction, but I don't think their thought process included "I would like to play the faction that impaled civilians alive and makes their children watch as they die"
    I am not saying that exist no players that like this and want to RP it, that's fair enough, I just do not believe that is more than a tiny fraction.
    You seem to forget the races that compose the faction:
    Orcs - other than the Frostwolves, very brutal.
    Trolls - other than the Darkspear, usually very hostile.
    Forsaken - as evil as the Scourge.
    Goblin - Greedy little bastards.

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    What are you smoking? I suggest you to stop.
    We have paladins in the Horde who are using same spellbooks as Alliance paladins, aka same rulebook.

    If you can't see equivalency between A&H, where are you looking? Stormwind Knights vs Fel Orcs in Blood Furnace?
    Horde is not Evil. Horde is Horde.
    It was alliance who fucked up their relationship with Forsaken and High Elves. It was alliance who forced trolls to join the Horde. It was alliance who forced Goblins into the Horde. If they did not fuck up so much they would have much better allies everywhere and the Orcish Horde would have been forced into a corner long ago.
    What?
    The Forsaken were inducted into the Horde by the Tauren, who felt compassionate for their condition. Thrall, eventually, saw the strategic advantage their location provides.
    Blood elves were the only one to be pushed into the Horde by none other than Garithos.
    The Darkspear Trolls and Orcs share Shamanistic cultures (and were facing Murlocs, not just Humans, in WC3).
    Goblins have been allies of the Horde for years, during the wars that made them a profit (given, it was the steamwheedle, but who cares).
    The other allies of the Horde would have been the Ogres and Forest Trolls, and they would not elevate the Horde to the status of peace lovers and harmonious gentles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    They can handle conflict just fine, it's outright war that's out of the question as in order for it to be good it would require that one side wins while the other loses. What Blizzard has gone with, twice now, is that things just kind of unrealistically shrink back to status quo, which is just all-around unsatisfying bullshit.

    Wrath did it well, providing Horde and Alliance their own bases, some hostilities, some cooperation. War was avoided through it all, skirmishes over Wintergrasp and Grizzly Hills resources being local disputes that got a bit messy. Scourge was still the main enemy and the reason Horde and Alliance were invading Northrend at all. There were even events that addressed the hostility and how it was handled, e.g. the Broken Front, where a rogue Horde commander sent his troops to stab an Alliance company in the back while they were busy fighting the Scourge; Garrosh of all people summoned this commander and gave him an earful about it.

    They can keep things like this, hostile co-existence without it boiling over into an unwinnable war.
    Exactly.
    This kind of handling of the faction war is excellent.

  4. #304
    Your hypothesis makes a few mistakes.

    1. The Alliance has nothing to do with the state of Undercity. Sylvanas chose to use Sxhorched Earth on it after she had lost.

    2. There's nothing major for the Horde to forgive the Alliance for. There are plenty of things in reverse. Even when discounting what the OG Horde did which Thrall's Horde claims to be a successor of. "Curiously" enough they only want to inherit the good parts instead of also inheriting the responsibility for all the plundering and murdering it did.

    3. And this is off-game. The writers at Blizzard subconsciously used the Confederacy as a model for the Horde, complete with revisionist history (e. i. "Gul'dan tricked us! except he never did. He promised that the brew would make the stronger and it did. He never said anything about them retaining their free will, nor did anyone ask. He lied by omission and if you fall for that you're too greedy to ask), and they even have or had until the writers had an "OH SHIT!!" epiphany about it, willing slaves in the Peons.

    Some players even notice this subconsciously as they say shit like "the Horde will rise again!" The only people who say "Germany will rise again" have pretty explicit sympathies.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    2. There's nothing major for the Horde to forgive the Alliance for. There are plenty of things in reverse. Even when discounting what the OG Horde did which Thrall's Horde claims to be a successor of. "Curiously" enough they only want to inherit the good parts instead of also inheriting the responsibility for all the plundering and murdering it did.
    Because invading one, no two, NO THREE Horde or Horde Allied cities is the birthright of the Alliance, right?
    Alliance had no right to be in either city, let alone all of them. Neither can be forgotten nor forgiven.

    And the KZ camps that Orcs were being stock piled in, was actually 5 star hotels with spa, booze and hookers, right? NO!!
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > DF > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The WC1 Horde was complete shit, so that's not really a loss, but it's perfectly possible to make factions battle each other without making annihilation the stakes. The game has done this before and other MMOs have as well. It's much better as well because constantly raising the stakes condemns you to a cop out. This isn't just with the factions either, a big problem of the game is that by raising the stakes to be the total annihilation of either us (impossible as the game or end) or the biggest of bads (possible but harmful as it diminishes their threat), Warcraft has killed absolutely every established baddie and must now invent new ones through tortured retcons, who always escalate from what came before, further exacerbating the problem. WoD and Pandaria were the sole exceptions.

    Agreed with the last part, except both factions were thoroughly castrated in this narrative in its pursuit of total homogeneity, only to pussy out of even that at the last moment by not making the Unifaction be in gameplay as well. Huge story damage was dealt with no tangible narrative or gameplay gain. If this whole thing had been a vehicle to nix factions it'd still have been a huge mistake but it would at least have some kind of reasoning attached to it, instead it's writers thinking they're smarter and more insightful than they actually are telling a story that the medium and lore neither can nor should sustain.
    BfA already rose the stakes of faction war too high. There is no undoing that nor moving forward with it. WoW would be better off dead now truth be told.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    BfA literally happened because Sylvanas was afraid that the alliance would strike first and unprovoked. The alliance. Led by Anduin. Anduin. Striking unprovoked.
    Their "explanation" for a possible unprovoked Alliance attack was Varian's death, but it wasn't very convincing.

    Sure, the Alliance and Anduin in particular are upset Varian is dead but it is pretty clear blaming the Horde for his death would be hogwash. The Horde very obviously didn't just abandon the Alliance to the demons, they left after their warchief was killed and the rest of their leaders rendered too injured to fight. There is no way the Alliance didn't know of Vol'jin's death by the time the Broken Isles campaign concluded.

    Having said that, I highly doubt Anduin would have gone to war with the Horde seeking revenge for Varian.
    It makes about as much sense as the Argent Dawn declaring war on the Alliance and Horde for not showing up to the Broken Shore fast enough to save Tirion.

    Personally, I thought at the end of Legion that relations between the Horde and Alliance were at an all-time high. I was convinced the Nightborne and the other allied races were there to add a dose of neutrality to the factions as they're all (or were) on good terms with both factions.
    Last edited by Oneirophobia; 2021-03-25 at 03:14 PM.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Because invading one, no two, NO THREE Horde or Horde Allied cities is the birthright of the Alliance, right?
    Alliance had no right to be in either city, let alone all of them. Neither can be forgotten nor forgiven.

    And the KZ camps that Orcs were being stock piled in, was actually 5 star hotels with spa, booze and hookers, right? NO!!
    Orcs tried to wipe out humans, elves and dwarves. Camps were a humane alternative to wiping out orcs who previously just killed, killed and killed everything that wasnt horde.

    Also what “three” cities do you mean? Siege of Orgrimmar was a team effort of Horde and Alliance against Garrosh.

    Lordaeron was a retaliation for genocide of night elves, very... mellow retaliation at that.

    Dazar’Alor attacked Kul’Tiras first together with the Horde and technically invaded Boralus too.

  9. #309
    Seems to me like they already did. They look like best buddies and those who have a grudge are presented as villains (Greymane, Sylvanas, Tyrande)

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    Their "explanation" for a possible unprovoked Alliance attack was Varian's death, but it wasn't very convincing.

    Sure, the Alliance and Anduin in particular are upset Varian is dead but it is pretty clear blaming the Horde for his death would be hogwash. The Horde very obviously didn't just abandon the Alliance to the demons, they left after their warchief was killed and the rest of their leaders rendered too injured to fight. There is no way the Alliance didn't know of Vol'jin's death by the time the Broken Isles campaign concluded.

    Having said that, I highly doubt Anduin would have gone to war with the Horde seeking revenge for Varian.
    It makes about as much sense as the Argent Dawn declaring war on the Alliance and Horde for not showing up to the Broken Shore fast enough to save Tirion.
    I mean, by that point Genn had already attacked Sylvanas during a war with demons who wanted to end the world and got off scott-free for it. Disregard for a moment whether Genn was right to do so in the abstract or not. In the circumstances that followed, where both Alliance and Horde wanted to harness what was presented in the narrative as plutonium, it makes sense to be wary of people who've already attacked you when the conflict didn't actually resolve and next time they could come at you with an atomic bomb. At the same time, the Alliance and Genn have no reason to take Sylvanas at her word because whether she was responsible for the Broken Shore or not, she has a track record of at best suborning their interest in favor of her own and at worst things like Gilneas or her general presence in Lordaeron which no regular Stormwind citizen, let alone someone directly affected would ever forgive. It's a setup where the parties are logical in their apprehensions and have reason to act with hostility without being strawmen.

    So of course it gets thrown out of the window and this has no role in their motivation. Instead, Sylvanas isn't motivated by geopolitics but by being a henchman for the Devil and Genn and the Alliance at large inexplicably no longer want to move proactively to stop someone like Sylvanas from gaining the equivalent of nukes since they're such nice guys.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  11. #311
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Never? are you sure about that? What about the second war Horde? or the first war Horde?
    obviously I was talking about Thrall's Horde
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Legion was an iffy point. The way the Order Halls were set up was based on the factions still being around and uncooperative, hence needing these entities. BFA is really springing off of that board albeit in an entirely different way to Legion. I don't think Blizzard ever intended for the post-Legion expansion to merge factions and they never set it up. BFA on the other hand is, extremely hamhandedly, heading towards the point of unification by either neutering (worgen, most Forsaken) or cutting out (Gallywix, Sylvanas, rest of the Forsaken) virtually any hostile character and foisting all conflict down as being the fault of a single strawman in Sylvanas. Things like Thrall and Jaina talking about what's different this time and how the Night Elves are shown to be extremely unreasonable to be blaming anyone but Sylvanas for their problems is heading to that moment where Saurfang goes out talking about Azeroth, much like how the rebels and the Alliance team up over how they're neither Horde nor Alliance, but Azerothians. Saurfang gets eulogized by the Alliance king and Calia's selling point is how close she is to the Alliance and how she can make the Forsaken more like humans, taking out the last intractable race after Mists eliminated the orcs. But at the cardinal moment, they back off and Shadows Rising and the Turalyon dialogue apply some sprinkling of realism and have the writers play with the idea of going back to that well. Ion backtracks and hesitates on it and while the main cast are still interchangable, they're still separate as Alliance or Horde.

    Now if you want to say that's illogical because of how the war started, how the Horde backed Sylvanas throughout or how Anduin's pro-white peace position being popular is beyond retarded, those are all true, but the story was still heading in that direction only to give up at the last moment.
    You are right about all of that, but the thing is: in the end they can do everything they want at any point in time.
    They can announce 9.2 tomorrow where Arthas and Illidan team up together with Sylvanas against by Anduin woth light power infused Kaelthas and Vashj.
    I am pretty sure somebody can write a story about how that plays out.
    It would make zero sense, not fit any of the characters involved and be dumb as hell, but of course, they COULD do it.

    That's how they handled the alliance/horde relationship this time.

  13. #313
    orcs crazy humans dumb war forever

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Because invading one, no two, NO THREE Horde or Horde Allied cities is the birthright of the Alliance, right?
    Alliance had no right to be in either city, let alone all of them. Neither can be forgotten nor forgiven.

    And the KZ camps that Orcs were being stock piled in, was actually 5 star hotels with spa, booze and hookers, right? NO!!
    Well, Orgrimar at the time was active hostile territory, also Orgrimmar at the time was Garrosh's and he had kicked everyone save for the Orcs and his hired Goblins out.

    Lordaeron was a response to a GENOCIDE! The way you present it was something done without any and all pretext and have to be seen without any context.

    At the time Dazar'alor was allied to the Horde in the sense of having friendly relations with the Horde. It was only after that DA fully allied with the Horde.

    So your example of three is in actuality one when the context is applied to the interpretation of it.

    Also, the camp? Funny you should mention those. The Horde lost an invasive war during which they murdered, plundered, and plundered their way through Azeroth. The Alliance showed incredible restraint by imprisoning the invaders instead of genociding them off the face of the planet, which they as the victors had the right to do.

    In a war without Geneva Convention rules the winner has absolute rights to decide whatever happens to the losers and the prisoners they take.

    Your post is so incredibly faulty. Either you're too biased and in which case you need to reflect deeply. Or you're being dishonest and trying to "well acshually" since if you do so you can be superior and I'll in context be inferior.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    You are right about all of that, but the thing is: in the end they can do everything they want at any point in time.
    They can announce 9.2 tomorrow where Arthas and Illidan team up together with Sylvanas against by Anduin woth light power infused Kaelthas and Vashj.
    I am pretty sure somebody can write a story about how that plays out.
    It would make zero sense, not fit any of the characters involved and be dumb as hell, but of course, they COULD do it.

    That's how they handled the alliance/horde relationship this time.
    Of course, they can do whatever. But usually they telegraph some ideas ahead of time and in BFA they were heavily signalling for a merge that they backed off from whereas with Legion they were sending signals leading towards BFA. They can completely pivot, but generally they do so less for gameplay than plot. They can rewrite Sylvanas' motivation several times if in the end she can still drop purples in a given patch, but systems based around faction unity are devised much earlier in advance due to the workload involved.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #316
    They could, but they shouldn't.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    obviously I was talking about Thrall's Horde
    Times change, you know.
    Thrall is no longer the Warchief and the Horde is no longer composed of only Orcs, Tauren and Trolls.
    Don't get me wrong, i think Thrall was a kickass of a Warchief.
    But, that doesn't mean i would like to see an "Alliance" type of Horde.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Times change, you know.
    Thrall is no longer the Warchief and the Horde is no longer composed of only Orcs, Tauren and Trolls.
    Don't get me wrong, i think Thrall was a kickass of a Warchief.
    But, that doesn't mean i would like to see an "Alliance" type of Horde.
    And "badass" horde usually implies attacking and murdering Alliance and then escaping any responsibility because "bad wachief made me do this". Yeah, no, fuck that. Horde either have to suffer a catastrophic , scarring and brutal loss on a scale of Teldrassil or fuck off and play Red Alliance because at this point Alliance has no motivation to fight and no faith in any victory either considering how blizz write the conflict. There should be a clear incentive, a monumental victory around which Alliance can rally or "nobody will come to the next war since its boring".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Of course, they can do whatever. But usually they telegraph some ideas ahead of time and in BFA they were heavily signalling for a merge that they backed off from whereas with Legion they were sending signals leading towards BFA. They can completely pivot, but generally they do so less for gameplay than plot. They can rewrite Sylvanas' motivation several times if in the end she can still drop purples in a given patch, but systems based around faction unity are devised much earlier in advance due to the workload involved.
    Uniting the faction is an "Option One". And i kinda wrote the second option in my comment right here, you can check it.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And "badass" horde usually implies attacking and murdering Alliance and then escaping any responsibility because "bad wachief made me do this". Yeah, no, fuck that. Horde either have to suffer a catastrophic , scarring and brutal loss on a scale of Teldrassil or fuck off and play Red Alliance because at this point Alliance has no motivation to fight and no faith in any victory either considering how blizz write the conflict. There should be a clear incentive, a monumental victory around which Alliance can rally or "nobody will come to the next war since its boring".
    I never claimed they were innocents.
    You wanna know the difference between them?:

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I never claimed they were innocents.
    You wanna know the difference between them?:
    And what that supposed to tell me? There can be no war which would inspire Alliance players to participate if Alliance does not actually win grand battles there, instead of not even being able to defend itself.

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